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On inadequately proven assumptions about the minds of others

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Ex-Nation

On inadequately proven assumptions about the minds of others

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:53 pm

https://twitter.com/stealthygeek/status ... 0326240256

The $500 pandemic stimulus child credit excludes pregnant women.

All it took was being asked to open their wallets for the GOP to admit unborn fetuses aren't really children.

While I would vote for any pro-legal-abortion referendum in a heartbeat (pardon the pun) I feel uncomfortable with people acting... a little too certain of statements like these. They seem to legitimize jumping to conclusions.

Firstly, a child credit assumes someone is going to be spending the money on the child... which wouldn't necessarily happen if the fetus were aborted.

Secondly, if 51% of "the GOP" supported abortion restrictions, and 49% of "the GOP" supported pandemic stimulus child credit, it wouldn't take hypocrisy on the part of a majority of the former.

I assume the gap is much wider than that, but the point remains. And even if it were wide enough to prove hypocrisy only on the part of a majority, are coin-toss odds really adequate to presume what's going on in the minds of others? At best you could say "some" GOPers support it for nefarious reasons, but that goes without saying. And there's an infinite array of possible nefarious reasons, but "wanting to deter premarital sex" is the one people typically revert to, for no apparent reason. Why would anyone with that goal pick a method that harms married couples needing abortions and leaves unmarried women who wanted to keep the baby all along unharmed? You could argue that we don't know why, but that's the point; we don't know what other reasons they may have for restricting abortions so the point is moot.

Of course, the tweet left open to interpretation whether it was referring to the politicians or to their supporters, but it doesn't matter. The same reasoning applies to both.

I see a similar thing with gay marriage, albeit with its equivalent not having as much overlap with "you're just jealous." This one you'd think the arguments were less common, since at least gay marriage opponents aren't as often made out to be "just jealous" of those getting laid. Yet they sure as hell are often made out to be "just homophobic." An individual opponent of gay marriage cannot prove their objection really is to "marriage without procreation." But the same applies to those claiming it's about homophobia in particular. They give the same already-refuted talking points about how they don't exclude infertility, even though they've already claimed they don't test for that because it'd be too intrusive. You cannot prove them to be lying any more than you can prove them to be telling the truth. And if, in the future, they did wind up testing for infertility, the way they tried to restrict contraception a few years ago, will the people who falsely claimed to know others' "real motives," having been discredited, step aside and make way for people of better judgment?

As well, if you combine the above issues, the evidence of a procreation-centric mentality of both sex and marriage among the right seems far stronger than either of the other explanations, though still not proven, which leaves behind the question; if someone is to invoke the unproven, why the above and not something with a stronger case to be made for it?

I suspect either dishonesty or poor judgment might be factors here. And I don't think it's a coincidence it correlates with more certainty than warranted about another person's precise motives.
Last edited by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha on Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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VVerkia
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Postby VVerkia » Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:32 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:You cannot prove them to be lying any more than you can prove them to be telling the truth. And if, in the future, they did wind up testing for infertility, the way they tried to restrict contraception a few years ago, will the people who falsely claimed to know others' "real motives," having been discredited, step aside and make way for people of better judgment?
{...}
I suspect either dishonesty or poor judgment might be factors here. And I don't think it's a coincidence it correlates with more certainty than warranted about another person's precise motives.

I don't know any of "real motives" of anyone. Always when i speak, write about real motive, real intention, i don't care about hearing it, about proving it to me, but i have in me some kind of feling or position or something, that real motives and intentions are something to for that someone to recognized and teach from it. If someone confess about true motives it's good for that someone. If not - that someone still hide in shell. I'm only listener, not judge. When i have my feelings or emotions about something it's just untollerancy or unacceptance of something. I don't condemn someone for doing thing, that i don't accept. Still, i don't accept what i don't accept. In that way i feel sorry, some kind of compassion for that kind of people, that do wrong or harm or even make wars and kills others to gain power or due to ideology, or some kind of threatening. Even to "worst of human being" that history told about. I don't need to know why someone do bad things, to deep feel compassion to them. And not accepted way of behave to others. This kind of attitude i have can be probably harmful to myself, but i'm just like that about that all wrong and bad peoples. When i don't accept, i just can ignore or alienate from someone, not play, not engage in activities, not trying to keep relationship. I can sometimes speak, talk or something, but it's hard to change my opinion.

Discrediting is simple. No one but only true god, know real intentions, deep feelings of someone. Anyone who isn't - can't and often can claim or behave like "oh, i know that IT is what you really are". That kind of someone also can do assumption based only of text, that is reading, declaiming, sing or something, and can claim, that these words are what someone really think or feel. This kind of reaction can be simply recognized, because reaction are made to surface, not to deep. If i know my deep, than i often experienced when someone react not to my deep, but to surface, behaving as "i know", and i simply know, that that someone don;t know and react only to surface, that wasn't mateched to my deep. It can be described as in example. Eg. i can read or sing something simple for reading or singing. Someone hear it and react in way, that i can perceive as thinking, that form pov of that someone i'm not simply read, not sing, but describe myself, my feelings, my will, or something. It's often annoying and can be labelled as poor judgement of my true intentions.

About precise motives, from my experiences of myself, motives can varied in many dimensions. Eg. when i read book, i can have one motive or few motives, motives can be equal, or one can be domineering etc. And probably only true god can tell and understand it all. Without experiments and without investigation.

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Nobel Hobos 2
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Ex-Nation

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:46 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Secondly, if 51% of "the GOP" supported abortion restrictions, and 49% of "the GOP" supported pandemic stimulus child credit, it wouldn't take hypocrisy on the part of a majority of the former.

I assume the gap is much wider than that, but the point remains. And even if it were wide enough to prove hypocrisy only on the part of a majority, are coin-toss odds really adequate to presume what's going on in the minds of others?


If the class of people is blacks, no.
If the class of people is whites, no.
If the class of people is a political party or a legislature then YES.

Parties absolutely CAN be ascribed the opinions of their majority.
Because that's their policy, all their members are responsible for it.

(btw, the thread title is too abstract and not descriptive of the subject)
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Ex-Nation

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:36 pm

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Secondly, if 51% of "the GOP" supported abortion restrictions, and 49% of "the GOP" supported pandemic stimulus child credit, it wouldn't take hypocrisy on the part of a majority of the former.

I assume the gap is much wider than that, but the point remains. And even if it were wide enough to prove hypocrisy only on the part of a majority, are coin-toss odds really adequate to presume what's going on in the minds of others?


If the class of people is blacks, no.
If the class of people is whites, no.
If the class of people is a political party or a legislature then YES.

Parties absolutely CAN be ascribed the opinions of their majority.
Because that's their policy, all their members are responsible for it.

(btw, the thread title is too abstract and not descriptive of the subject)

...have any specific alternatives in mind, then?

Anyway, if it applies specifically to political parties, to what extent? If for instance some Republican politicians condemned Bill Clinton's adultery, and others didn't distance themselves from this, are only the former guilty of hypocrisy in failing to condemn Trump's adultery (without stating outright that they changed their mind, and/or why) or are the latter as well?

(I'm presently thinking both, but the former to a much greater extent than the latter. Technically there's an infinite number of things you aren't condemning at any moment, but when a whole group of people collectively tends to condemn one thing more frequently than another, that can't be a coincidence.)
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:05 pm

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Secondly, if 51% of "the GOP" supported abortion restrictions, and 49% of "the GOP" supported pandemic stimulus child credit, it wouldn't take hypocrisy on the part of a majority of the former.

I assume the gap is much wider than that, but the point remains. And even if it were wide enough to prove hypocrisy only on the part of a majority, are coin-toss odds really adequate to presume what's going on in the minds of others?


If the class of people is blacks, no.
If the class of people is whites, no.
If the class of people is a political party or a legislature then YES.

Parties absolutely CAN be ascribed the opinions of their majority.
Because that's their policy, all their members are responsible for it.

(btw, the thread title is too abstract and not descriptive of the subject)


Pretty much this. Especially with political parties.
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Rojava Free State
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Ex-Nation

Postby Rojava Free State » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:15 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
If the class of people is blacks, no.
If the class of people is whites, no.
If the class of people is a political party or a legislature then YES.

Parties absolutely CAN be ascribed the opinions of their majority.
Because that's their policy, all their members are responsible for it.

(btw, the thread title is too abstract and not descriptive of the subject)


Pretty much this. Especially with political parties.


In modern America, diversity of opinion isn't really a thing that either party values. Especially the Republicans aka the Donald Trump fanclub.
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.


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