Somerville, Mass to recognize polyamorous partnerships

[Greed and Death]

Because social norms are not as firm as we might like to pretend, and poly relationships can and have been normalized and mainstreamed in other societies, and it usually doesn't end well when you reach them being prevalent and the norm. That's separate to them being tolerated with this understanding in mind.

Can you give any real examples where socially acceptable polyamory have caused social breakdown? I’d argue that serial monogamy is normalised and more of an issue

https://www.economist.com/the-economist ... -civil-war

A very strong correlation between Polygamy.

Generally if men are denied the ability to reproduce they tend to become anti social. A large enough group of men become denied then society becomes unstable. Yes I agree men are not entitled to sex, but saying that and shaking your finger at them doesn't make them any less violent.

Also uneven sex ratios also produce this. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5983495/


Now yes the correlation is with multiple wives but I am not convinced the multiple husband will make up for that, for the simple fact that as men seek to have children they will transition to monogamous relationships in order to ensure any child they invest 18 years of time and money into are actually theirs.

[Grenartia]

Ruh-roh. I don't think this will end well.Last time I saw polyamory in the news, well, that was during the whole ProJared debacle. I really hope something like that doesn't happen again, especially as a result of what's happening in Somerville.

Imagine thinking the ProJared drama was bad because of polyamory, and not a guy cheating on his wife (I'm sure you'll be shocked to know that cheating is not a form of polyamory) and soliciting nudes from minors.

[Parxland]

Cool.

[Ostroeuropa]

Can you give any real examples where socially acceptable polyamory have caused social breakdown? I’d argue that serial monogamy is normalised and more of an issue

https://www.economist.com/the-economist ... -civil-war

A very strong correlation between Polygamy.

Generally if men are denied the ability to reproduce they tend to become anti social. A large enough group of men become denied then society becomes unstable. Yes I agree men are not entitled to sex, but saying that and shaking your finger at them doesn't make them any less violent.

Also uneven sex ratios also produce this. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5983495/


Now yes the correlation is with multiple wives but I am not convinced the multiple husband will make up for that, for the simple fact that as men seek to have children they will transition to monogamous relationships in order to ensure any child they invest 18 years of time and money into are actually theirs.

Arguably the current instability is due to functional polyamory in our society. The radicalization of the country can be traced to the market crash and subsequent dynamic. The number of men having no sex skyrocketed, while the number of women having no sex stayed the same. This is because women don't sleep with poor men or socially marginalized men if given the choice due to how female identity and sexuality is constructed. So women started sleeping with richer men and it's led to a massive social rift that has led to radicalization of the populace, including boogaloo memes.

It's difficult to buy into the "You're not entitled to sex" framing when womens sexuality so clearly reinforces material and social hierarchies, despite their oft repeated claims (Spammed in order to protect their own egos and blame men) that its because of those mens personal flaws and so on, the study demonstrates that isn't the case. When they had money, they got sex, when the market crashed, that stopped.

We hear a lot from feminists about how male sexuality is problematic. But when various manospheric movements make these observations about womens sexuality, the reaction has been to cast their gaze anywhere else but at examining how womens identities are toxic and behavior for society, and to basically insist upon lying to themselves and men for why the dynamic is in place.

The acknowledgement of the problem of a large number of single, sexless men driving the alt-right and so on is one that isn't controversial. But feminists and women default into blaming them for their personality flaws and acting like it's because of masculinity, or something wrong with the men, because this is how feminism has trained them to think, and because their identities as people are based on regurgitating that kind of analysis rather than engaging in honest self-reflection.

But once again...

It can be traced to the market crash.

The problem isn't that they're "Nice guys", it's that they are poor. That's basically impossible for women to defend or internalize, so they come up with a myriad of lies and excuses for their choices instead, desperately rationalizing excuses in order to protect their ego and view of themselves rather than confront what they actually are and how they actually behave. There is nothing more destructive to womanhood than self-awareness. (And note, I'm saying this is a good thing. Womanhood should be deconstructed and destroyed and rebuilt into a more functional identity and set of behaviors. Same for Manhood.).

This dynamic also shows why "Polyamory" is always going to lead to Polygamy, not balanced by Polyandry. Because womens sexuality is constructed in such a way to cause that outcome. Far more women will be comfortable being a rich mans 2nd or 3rd wife and consider that a desirable outcome than the reverse.

And it also shows why it's going to lead to social instability, division, polarization, and arguably violence and eventual civil war. Because women keep pretending to themselves and others that it's because the men have some undesirable personality traits, they dehumanize them and make them out to be bad people, rather than just say;

"I find money sexually attractive. The reason I won't sleep with those men is they do not have money.". Because that idea, that fact, is so antithetical to how women think of themselves, they can't bare it. It might force them to think "Okay, so am I going to become a borderline ancap type who openly accepts this fact about myself and push for a hierarchical hellscape of a society, or am I going to try and change my behavior and evaluate the toxic way I interact with men?". Far simpler to just cling to feminist ideology as gospel and avoid self-awareness, pretending to themselves the reasons are the men having bad personalities or something. That way, they can continue to identify as egalitarian people while behaving like inegalitarian people.

Source on claim:
https://old.reddit.com/r/science/commen ... m_2000_to/

[Atheris]

Ruh-roh. I don't think this will end well.Last time I saw polyamory in the news, well, that was during the whole ProJared debacle. I really hope something like that doesn't happen again, especially as a result of what's happening in Somerville.

Imagine thinking the ProJared drama was bad because of polyamory, and not a guy cheating on his wife (I'm sure you'll be shocked to know that cheating is not a form of polyamory) and soliciting nudes from minors.

I'm not saying it was bad because of polyarmory, just that Jared and his wife's polyamorous relationship either made it happen in the first place or exacerbated it 10x more than what it needed to be.

[Grenartia]

Imagine thinking the ProJared drama was bad because of polyamory, and not a guy cheating on his wife (I'm sure you'll be shocked to know that cheating is not a form of polyamory) and soliciting nudes from minors.

I'm not saying it was bad because of polyarmory, just that Jared and his wife's polyamorous relationship either made it happen in the first place or exacerbated it 10x more than what it needed to be.

The last I heard, Jared was just trying to excuse his cheating by saying they were in a poly relationship, but his wife denied that. I haven't kept up with it in a hot minute, though.

[Greed and Death]

In the future I recommend linking to the study itself and not the reddit on it.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamane ... erm=061220

I find linking to a Reddit while citing the a study the same as linking to shoddy pop history sources that cite primary sources but really quote other shoddy pop history sources.

[Atheris]

I'm not saying it was bad because of polyarmory, just that Jared and his wife's polyamorous relationship either made it happen in the first place or exacerbated it 10x more than what it needed to be.

The last I heard, Jared was just trying to excuse his cheating by saying they were in a poly relationship, but his wife denied that. I haven't kept up with it in a hot minute, though.

He cheated on his wife with Holly, but everything else is 100% the fault of his wife. There's a few videos I recommend you check out, especially this one by Treesicle.

[Diopolis]

One off the cuff issue with polyamory is that it does, indeed, appear to work well for smart, stable adults dedicated to making the relationship work(at least in a liberal few/no kids strata- I've never seen any reports of it actually happening in a high-fertility environment), but that a significant percentage of the population does not meet all of those criteria. Therefore we should be pretty cautious about poly as a default, or as some kind of widespread social phenomenon, until we're sure that we've worked out all the kinks.
I'm pretty sure that we haven't, and notably, without strong, normative roles which dictate behavior in poly relationships- in order to compensate for the inevitable influx of people who are not smart, are not stable, stopped maturing at 17, or are not particularly dedicated to making the relationship work- I'm pretty sure the kinks can't be considered well enough worked out for it to be safe to let it out of the closet.

[Nuroblav]

Cool. Not polyamorous, but good for them.

[Diopolis]

Because social norms are not as firm as we might like to pretend, and poly relationships can and have been normalized and mainstreamed in other societies, and it usually doesn't end well when you reach them being prevalent and the norm. That's separate to them being tolerated with this understanding in mind.

Can you give any real examples where socially acceptable polyamory have caused social breakdown? I’d argue that serial monogamy is normalised and more of an issue

Serial monogamy is a good case study for this. We legalized it without fully considering the consequences, and look at that, the consequences.

[Ethel mermania]

I think I want to be a family law attorney in mass. When I grow up.

[Grenartia]

The last I heard, Jared was just trying to excuse his cheating by saying they were in a poly relationship, but his wife denied that. I haven't kept up with it in a hot minute, though.

He cheated on his wife with Holly, but everything else is 100% the fault of his wife. There's a few videos I recommend you check out, especially this one by Treesicle.

I admittedly saw the first two by them, but not the third.

One off the cuff issue with polyamory is that it does, indeed, appear to work well for smart, stable adults dedicated to making the relationship work(at least in a liberal few/no kids strata- I've never seen any reports of it actually happening in a high-fertility environment), but that a significant percentage of the population does not meet all of those criteria. Therefore we should be pretty cautious about poly as a default, or as some kind of widespread social phenomenon, until we're sure that we've worked out all the kinks.
I'm pretty sure that we haven't, and notably, without strong, normative roles which dictate behavior in poly relationships- in order to compensate for the inevitable influx of people who are not smart, are not stable, stopped maturing at 17, or are not particularly dedicated to making the relationship work- I'm pretty sure the kinks can't be considered well enough worked out for it to be safe to let it out of the closet.

The big thing to remember here is that polyamory, just like monogamy, requires open, honest, forthwright communication, albeit, poly requires an even greater degree of it than mono.

I (along with probably most of the rest of the community) will freely admit polyamory isn't for everyone, and a decent chunk of people won't know if its for them or not until they try it, and some of those people will get burned. But its no different from mono relationships in general. Collectively, as a society, we all accept that in a monogamous relationship, there is a significant chance that some kind of toxicity will develop, and most monogamous relationships will not 'succeed' even if no toxicity happens, but we also accept that consenting adults are free to take that risk to discover true love and happiness. The same thought process applies to polyamory.

[Mushet]

I wonder if this will attract Mormons.

[Asle Leopolka]

More than one wife? What, do ya like being nagged?



But seriously, if that's your thing then fly your freak flag.

[Diopolis]

One off the cuff issue with polyamory is that it does, indeed, appear to work well for smart, stable adults dedicated to making the relationship work(at least in a liberal few/no kids strata- I've never seen any reports of it actually happening in a high-fertility environment), but that a significant percentage of the population does not meet all of those criteria. Therefore we should be pretty cautious about poly as a default, or as some kind of widespread social phenomenon, until we're sure that we've worked out all the kinks.
I'm pretty sure that we haven't, and notably, without strong, normative roles which dictate behavior in poly relationships- in order to compensate for the inevitable influx of people who are not smart, are not stable, stopped maturing at 17, or are not particularly dedicated to making the relationship work- I'm pretty sure the kinks can't be considered well enough worked out for it to be safe to let it out of the closet.

The big thing to remember here is that polyamory, just like monogamy, requires open, honest, forthwright communication, albeit, poly requires an even greater degree of it than mono.

I (along with probably most of the rest of the community) will freely admit polyamory isn't for everyone, and a decent chunk of people won't know if its for them or not until they try it, and some of those people will get burned. But its no different from mono relationships in general. Collectively, as a society, we all accept that in a monogamous relationship, there is a significant chance that some kind of toxicity will develop, and most monogamous relationships will not 'succeed' even if no toxicity happens, but we also accept that consenting adults are free to take that risk to discover true love and happiness. The same thought process applies to polyamory.

The fundamental point, which I think we both agree on, is that polyamory requires a lot of the same things as monogamy, and can go wrong in similar ways(and a few unique ways that require more than two people), but is a lot harder.
At least in a liberal low-fertility strata(and this is an important confounding variable, albeit we have no idea how it would affect the results of such experiments because we've never seen it), polyamory among smart, stable, mature adults with a strong dedication to the relationship does not seem to be a notable dumpster fire on a level which we can see.
Now as you admit, polyamory isn't for everyone and a substantial portion of people who try it will probably get burned. This is distinguished from more conventional relationships in multiple ways-
1)Monogamous relationships are usually going to have smaller fallout than polygamous relationships because there are fewer people.
2)The lack of a script for polyamorous relationships means that elders and other wise members of the community often cannot be consulted for problems their advice would render dealable with in monogamous relationships.
3)Polyamory is harder than monogamy. This means that it works for fewer people. Considering that we as a society are pretty quick to push monogamous relationships on people for whom any relationship is unlikely to be successful, I doubt that we will develop strong norms to restrict polyamory to the subset for whom it works.
4)The lack of a script for polyamory adds relationship stress because things have to be figured out as one goes along. Not a death knell, necessarily, but it does make it even harder.
5)Polyamory has only been demonstrated not to be a trainwreck in one particular social stratum, and that needs to be taken into account. What works in a well educated, wealthy, liberal, few-to-no-kids stratum may not work in a trailerpark(although what works in a trailerpark will probably work in such a stratum). But what goes on in high-prestige strata like the one experimenting with polyamory will inevitably get exported down the line to places like ghettos, trailerparks, and other locations with enhanced societal fragility.

[Vassenor]

The last I heard, Jared was just trying to excuse his cheating by saying they were in a poly relationship, but his wife denied that. I haven't kept up with it in a hot minute, though.

He cheated on his wife with Holly, but everything else is 100% the fault of his wife. There's a few videos I recommend you check out, especially this one by Treesicle.

Including the ways he abused her?

[Benuty]

This is going to end in a massive dumpster fire. Though the lawyers will be happy

I will feel sorry for the child that gets the shit beat out of it by one of the fathers after the mother, and other partners become a massive meme thanks to the dumpster fire known formerly as Barcroft tv do a documentary on them.

[Grenartia]

The big thing to remember here is that polyamory, just like monogamy, requires open, honest, forthwright communication, albeit, poly requires an even greater degree of it than mono.

I (along with probably most of the rest of the community) will freely admit polyamory isn't for everyone, and a decent chunk of people won't know if its for them or not until they try it, and some of those people will get burned. But its no different from mono relationships in general. Collectively, as a society, we all accept that in a monogamous relationship, there is a significant chance that some kind of toxicity will develop, and most monogamous relationships will not 'succeed' even if no toxicity happens, but we also accept that consenting adults are free to take that risk to discover true love and happiness. The same thought process applies to polyamory.

I do want to get around to responding to this but I have to go cook for a fourth of July party, so I'm reserving this post.

Ok, that's fine.

This is going to end in a massive dumpster fire. Though the lawyers will be happy

I will feel sorry for the child that gets the shit beat out of it by one of the fathers after the mother, and other partners become a massive meme thanks to the dumpster fire known formerly as Barcroft tv do a documentary on them.

What the actual fuck?

[Cekoviu]

This is going to end in a massive dumpster fire. Though the lawyers will be happy

I will feel sorry for the child that gets the shit beat out of it by one of the fathers after the mother, and other partners become a massive meme thanks to the dumpster fire known formerly as Barcroft tv do a documentary on them.

did you have a stroke? should i call 911?

[Benuty]

I will feel sorry for the child that gets the shit beat out of it by one of the fathers after the mother, and other partners become a massive meme thanks to the dumpster fire known formerly as Barcroft tv do a documentary on them.

did you have a stroke? should i call 911?

Barcroft tv did a documentary on a polyamorous group, and these people became absolutely blasted on the internet. The woman at the center of the relationship gave birth to a child who was fought over by the male partners, and ultimately beaten half to death by one of the men.

[Ostroeuropa]

did you have a stroke? should i call 911?

Barcroft tv did a documentary on a polyamorous group, and these people became absolutely blasted on the internet. The woman at the center of the relationship gave birth to a child who was fought over by the male partners, and ultimately beaten half to death by one of the men.

It's a little self-selecting there in that you're in the intersection of "Polyamorous" and "Wants to go on modern reality television", and i'd wager those people are a total mess in ways that are well beyond the poly bit.

[The Two Jerseys]

More than one wife? What, do ya like being nagged?

(Image)

But seriously, if that's your thing then fly your freak flag.

"One mother-in-law is one too many, why you'd want more than that is beyond me."

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Because social norms are not as firm as we might like to pretend, and poly relationships can and have been normalized and mainstreamed in other societies, and it usually doesn't end well when you reach them being prevalent and the norm. That's separate to them being tolerated with this understanding in mind.

Your concerns are historically valid (and I shudder to think what a poly divorce would look like), but I'm not entirely sure we'd be looking at the same negative outcomes, depending on the kind of poly relationships we're talking about. Traditional polyamory, as seen in many religious communities, has a ton of widespread and well-documented problems. But a lot of contemporary poly relationships don't come from those communities nor are structured like traditional polyamory. The dynamics are often very different and I'm not sure we can expect the consequences of their normalization to be the same.

If you have to be outside the norm to "date" multiple people, that will incentivize proceeding with caution.

If it's normal, people will be more complacent.

Our ape ancestors embraced polygamy and the result was sexual jealousy escalating to severe violence. Individually, people have the right to take that risk. Enshrining society's endorsement of it into law might be pushing it.

As well, if there's no limit as to how many spouses you can take... is there any meaningful distinction between a marriage and a club?

[Cekoviu]

Your concerns are historically valid (and I shudder to think what a poly divorce would look like), but I'm not entirely sure we'd be looking at the same negative outcomes, depending on the kind of poly relationships we're talking about. Traditional polyamory, as seen in many religious communities, has a ton of widespread and well-documented problems. But a lot of contemporary poly relationships don't come from those communities nor are structured like traditional polyamory. The dynamics are often very different and I'm not sure we can expect the consequences of their normalization to be the same.

If you have to be outside the norm to "date" multiple people, that will incentivize proceeding with caution.

If it's normal, people will be more complacent.

Our ape ancestors embraced polygamy and the result was sexual jealousy escalating to severe violence. Individually, people have the right to take that risk. Enshrining society's endorsement of it into law might be pushing it.

As well, if there's no limit as to how many spouses you can take... is there any meaningful distinction between a marriage and a club?

i'm concerned about how you approach social interaction if you think marriages can be equivalent to club membership purely due to number