A Holiday Trade?(Juneteenth in Exchange for Columbus Day)

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Why not labour day?
What is that even for?

[Heloin]

Why not labour day?
What is that even for?

People who work.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Why not labour day?
What is that even for?

People who work.

sounds socialist

[Heloin]

People who work.

sounds socialist

Good job working that out. Have a gold star.

[Greed and Death]

Why not labour day?
What is that even for?

Because they threaten violence if they lose their holiday.

The only thing that gets holidays it seems.

[Kannap]

Why not labour day?
What is that even for?

Labor Day recognizes, honors, and celebrates the labor movement and all its done for the advancement of society.

Labor keeps everything running, the least we can do is give them one day off honoring them, though of course I think laborers deserve so much more.

[Greed and Death]

No he didn't commit genocide.

Most of the negative sources on Columbus are from poorly sourced pop history like Adam ruins everything, which trace themselves to a poorly sourced book by a professor of political science who got fired from an HBCU for being too radical. Getting fried from an HBCU for radicalism takes effort. That like getting fired from Yale for being snooty.

It'll probably be best to assume that you're knowledge of Columbus comes from Washington Irving's account of him rather then any academic account written in the last 40 or so years. Or your doing your normal thing and just saying things. I can't really tell right now.

If anything the ignorance your display shows why we need Columbus day as a holiday, with mandatory education on the subject and the withholding of degrees for those who do not talk well about him.

Your complete lack of knowledge about Columbus is very telling, yes.

Yeah and your account comes from Howard Zinn (and it wasn't academic because he didn't subject it to peer review) who attributes events to Columbus even though they occurred decades after his death. Say what you will about Washington Irving but at least he only attributes to Columbus events that occurred during his life time. So Washington Irving:1 Anti Columbus edgelords: 0.

Also try Howard Schuman, Barry Schwartz and Hannah D'Arcy for historical sources. Claiming all nuanced views of Columbus come from Irving is like claiming all of the anti Columbus revisionism came from anti Spanish and anti Italian. It further demonstrates a complete and total ignorance of the historical process and body of work.

And since you brought up Irving I will assume you buy the line of argument that it wasn't until Irving that US celebrated ? That is false you know. We named cities after him before Irving lived, the feminine spirit of the US is named Columbia and she predates Independence by 40 years.

Your view is Revisionist and further it is revisionism that is on flimsy ground based on sources that written after his death and about other people. Further this Edgelord revisionism is not new this is merely the black Legend by another name.

[Heloin]

It'll probably be best to assume that you're knowledge of Columbus comes from Washington Irving's account of him rather then any academic account written in the last 40 or so years. Or your doing your normal thing and just saying things. I can't really tell right now.


Your complete lack of knowledge about Columbus is very telling, yes.

Yeah and your account comes from Howard Zinn (and it wasn't academic because he didn't subject it to peer review) who attributes events to Columbus even though they occurred decades after his death. Say what you will about Washington Irving but at least he only attributes to Columbus events that occurred during his life time. So Washington Irving:1 Anti Columbus edgelords: 0.

My account comes from one and a half thesis papers, 2 years of research on the topic, and having to pay out of pocket for Spanish and Italian accounts of the man from the time. The second thesis (and far better written) was more on the subject of genocide but Columbus and the Columbian exchange did make up a large chunk of what ended up in it. Funnily enough one of the papers I read during that time and used as a source for a specific point would include...

Also try Howard Schuman, Barry Schwartz and Hannah D'Arcy for historical sources. Claiming all nuanced views of Columbus come from Irving is like claiming all of the anti Columbus revisionism came from anti Spanish and anti Italian. It further demonstrates a complete and total ignorance of the historical process and body of work.

Elite Revisionists and Popular Belief. Something you don't seem to have read despite bringing up it's authors. But hey if you want to support total historical ignorance of studying complicated historical figures be my guest. Everyone has to be a hero or a villain don't they? You can't accept that Columbus was both incredibly important and pretty fucking awful as an individual.

And since you brought up Irving I will assume you buy the line of argument that it wasn't until Irving that US celebrated ? That is false you know. We named cities after him before Irving lived, the feminine spirit of the US is named Columbia and she predates Independence by 40 years.

It'd be nice if you didn't make assumptions about my statements that stray so far from reality. I make actual mistakes in my posts, I misspeak, I don't remember everything correctly. Don't waste my time and yours by going off about nonsense that I don't give a shit about.

Your view is Revisionist and further it is revisionism that is on flimsy ground based on sources that written after his death and about other people.

This is a weird statement to make. It's both not true and just really strange honestly. I want to live in your dream world where primary sourced accounts for everything are easily available.

Further this Edgelord revisionism is not new this is merely the black Legend by another name.

The Black Legend was an attempe by other colonists to the new would mostly French, English, and Dutch to minimise their atrocities and maximise their glory. This doesn't change the fact that the Spanish slaughtered the Taíno the same as the English slaughtered the Beothuk. Acting like the reexamination of historical figures is in some way in attack on Italians or Spaniards however, that's just going to be a you problem.

[James_xenoland]

Yeah, that's a big giant NO way.. Taking Columbus Day is a nonstarter! I wouldn't even call this a pipe dream if that's how they plan on doing it.

It'll probably be best to assume that you're knowledge of Columbus comes from Washington Irving's account of him rather then any academic account written in the last 40 or so years. Or your doing your normal thing and just saying things. I can't really tell right now.


Your complete lack of knowledge about Columbus is very telling, yes.

Yeah and your account comes from Howard Zinn (and it wasn't academic because he didn't subject it to peer review) who attributes events to Columbus even though they occurred decades after his death. Say what you will about Washington Irving but at least he only attributes to Columbus events that occurred during his life time. So Washington Irving:1 Anti Columbus edgelords: 0.

Also try Howard Schuman, Barry Schwartz and Hannah D'Arcy for historical sources. Claiming all nuanced views of Columbus come from Irving is like claiming all of the anti Columbus revisionism came from anti Spanish and anti Italian. It further demonstrates a complete and total ignorance of the historical process and body of work.

And since you brought up Irving I will assume you buy the line of argument that it wasn't until Irving that US celebrated ? That is false you know. We named cities after him before Irving lived, the feminine spirit of the US is named Columbia and she predates Independence by 40 years.

Your view is Revisionist and further it is revisionism that is on flimsy ground based on sources that written after his death and about other people. Further this Edgelord revisionism is not new this is merely the black Legend by another name.

/debate (also very well stated)

[Kannap]

Yeah, that's a big giant NO way.. Taking Columbus Day is a nonstarter! I wouldn't even call this a pipe dream if that's how they plan on doing it.

Yeah and your account comes from Howard Zinn (and it wasn't academic because he didn't subject it to peer review) who attributes events to Columbus even though they occurred decades after his death. Say what you will about Washington Irving but at least he only attributes to Columbus events that occurred during his life time. So Washington Irving:1 Anti Columbus edgelords: 0.

Also try Howard Schuman, Barry Schwartz and Hannah D'Arcy for historical sources. Claiming all nuanced views of Columbus come from Irving is like claiming all of the anti Columbus revisionism came from anti Spanish and anti Italian. It further demonstrates a complete and total ignorance of the historical process and body of work.

And since you brought up Irving I will assume you buy the line of argument that it wasn't until Irving that US celebrated ? That is false you know. We named cities after him before Irving lived, the feminine spirit of the US is named Columbia and she predates Independence by 40 years.

Your view is Revisionist and further it is revisionism that is on flimsy ground based on sources that written after his death and about other people. Further this Edgelord revisionism is not new this is merely the black Legend by another name.

/debate (also very well stated)

Actually, if you want to type "/debate" you should've read Heloin's post after that one. Come on, just one more post to read.

[The Cazistan]

[url]usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/07/02/juneteenth-would-replace-columbus-day-federal-holiday-bill-says/5362566002/[/url]

A couple of Republican Senators(James Lankford of Oklahoma and Ron Johnson of Wisconsin) have said they're in favour of allowing Juneteenth to be a federal holiday...so long as another holiday is cut from the schedule to keep costs down. Their holiday to remove? Columbus Day.

In response to bipartisan efforts to make Juneteenth a federal holiday, Republican Sens. Ron Johnson and James Lankford have proposed eliminating a different federal holiday "in exchange."

The choice?

Columbus Day.

“We support celebrating emancipation with a federal holiday but believe we should eliminate a current holiday in exchange. We chose Columbus Day as a holiday that is lightly celebrated, and least disruptive to Americans’ schedules,” Johnson, of Wisconsin, said in a statement Wednesday.

Johnson and Lankford of Oklahoma will be seeking to amend a bill making Juneteenth a federal holiday.

Johnson said adding to the number of federal holidays would give federal workers an additional day of paid leave and increase the government's costs. He called his amendment a "counter-proposal that does not put us further in debt.”

Juneteenth, celebrated on June 19, commemorates the end of slavery. The Emancipation Proclamation had outlawed slavery more than two years earlier, but enforcement largely was a function of where Union troops had advanced. On June 19, 1865, federal orders finally reached — and were proclaimed — in Texas.

Efforts to make it a federal holiday have intensified amid the protests against racial inequality in the aftermath of the killing of George Floyd by police in Minneapolis.

Columbus Day honors Christopher Columbus and has been recognized as a federal holiday since 1934. Originally, it fell on Oct. 12, but President Lyndon Johnson in 1968 moved it to the second Monday in October.

For many Italian-American groups and communities, it’s a day set aside to celebrate their heritage. But it has been a source of growing controversy in recent years because of the killing and enslavement of indigenous people in the Americas by European explorers and settlers.

Last year, Wisconsin Gov. Tony Evers by executive order designated Indigenous Peoples Day to run on the same day as the federal holiday. Earlier this year, Chicago Public Schools stopped recognizing Columbus Day entirely, instead giving students off the same day and calling it Indigenous Peoples Day, drawing objections from Italian American groups.

A spokesman for Johnson said the senator was not denigrating Christopher Columbus or making a value judgment about his legacy, only seeking to avoid increasing the number of federal holidays for cost reasons.

Their reasoning is that it's only lightly celebrated, mostly within the Italian community, and seen by many Americans as problematic and too inconvenient, so why not get rid of it?

So, NSG, what's your take on it?

Personally, i'd rather we rename Columbus Day Indigenous Peoples Day and have both of them as federal holidays, but I'll take this one for now. We can bring back the October holiday in a few years time.

cringe

[Kannap]

[url]usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/07/02/juneteenth-would-replace-columbus-day-federal-holiday-bill-says/5362566002/[/url]

A couple of Republican Senators(James Lankford of Oklahoma and Ron Johnson of Wisconsin) have said they're in favour of allowing Juneteenth to be a federal holiday...so long as another holiday is cut from the schedule to keep costs down. Their holiday to remove? Columbus Day.

In response to bipartisan efforts to make Juneteenth a federal holiday, Republican Sens. Ron Johnson and James Lankford have proposed eliminating a different federal holiday "in exchange."

The choice?

Columbus Day.

“We support celebrating emancipation with a federal holiday but believe we should eliminate a current holiday in exchange. We chose Columbus Day as a holiday that is lightly celebrated, and least disruptive to Americans’ schedules,” Johnson, of Wisconsin, said in a statement Wednesday.

Johnson and Lankford of Oklahoma will be seeking to amend a bill making Juneteenth a federal holiday.

Johnson said adding to the number of federal holidays would give federal workers an additional day of paid leave and increase the government's costs. He called his amendment a "counter-proposal that does not put us further in debt.”

Juneteenth, celebrated on June 19, commemorates the end of slavery. The Emancipation Proclamation had outlawed slavery more than two years earlier, but enforcement largely was a function of where Union troops had advanced. On June 19, 1865, federal orders finally reached — and were proclaimed — in Texas.

Efforts to make it a federal holiday have intensified amid the protests against racial inequality in the aftermath of the killing of George Floyd by police in Minneapolis.

Columbus Day honors Christopher Columbus and has been recognized as a federal holiday since 1934. Originally, it fell on Oct. 12, but President Lyndon Johnson in 1968 moved it to the second Monday in October.

For many Italian-American groups and communities, it’s a day set aside to celebrate their heritage. But it has been a source of growing controversy in recent years because of the killing and enslavement of indigenous people in the Americas by European explorers and settlers.

Last year, Wisconsin Gov. Tony Evers by executive order designated Indigenous Peoples Day to run on the same day as the federal holiday. Earlier this year, Chicago Public Schools stopped recognizing Columbus Day entirely, instead giving students off the same day and calling it Indigenous Peoples Day, drawing objections from Italian American groups.

A spokesman for Johnson said the senator was not denigrating Christopher Columbus or making a value judgment about his legacy, only seeking to avoid increasing the number of federal holidays for cost reasons.

Their reasoning is that it's only lightly celebrated, mostly within the Italian community, and seen by many Americans as problematic and too inconvenient, so why not get rid of it?

So, NSG, what's your take on it?

Personally, i'd rather we rename Columbus Day Indigenous Peoples Day and have both of them as federal holidays, but I'll take this one for now. We can bring back the October holiday in a few years time.

cringe

yeah, Columbus Day is cringe.

[Vetalia]

Why not labour day?
What is that even for?

The difference is I actually get Labor Day off unlike the rest of the BS federal "holidays".

[Eahland]

Screw them, why do we have to lose a day off?

Make juneteenth a holiday and keep Columbus day.

Too many days off and the next thing you know, we'll turn into France, you socialist cat, you.

October 12 is Hugh Jackman's birthday. And Joe Cronin's, too, and Tony Kubek's. And Dick Gregory.

And mine.

I've been operating for years on the theory that the federal holiday is actually celebrating my birth. I deserve it a hell of a lot more than Columbus does. For one thing, I've never committed genocide.

[Gig em Aggies]

Too many days off and the next thing you know, we'll turn into France, you socialist cat, you.

October 12 is Hugh Jackman's birthday. And Joe Cronin's, too, and Tony Kubek's. And Dick Gregory.

And mine.

I've been operating for years on the theory that the federal holiday is actually celebrating my birth. I deserve it a hell of a lot more than Columbus does. For one thing, I've never committed genocide.

well that's probably what you want us to think? It's not like you can fabricate anything on the internet right?

[The Emerald Legion]

Juneteenth is an admirable idea for a federal holiday, but why not just rename Columbus Day? If we wanna celebrate the supposed discovery of the Americas (which again, Columbus wasn't the first to do so, but semantics), just call it something else. Some states have opted for Indigenous People's day, one could also make an argument to just rebrand it as an inoffensive "Patriot's Day" or something.

I just want an extra holiday without having to nerf another one. I'm motivated solely by the idea of more days off work.

We say Columbus discovered America because he made it known to the wider world.

The Vikings beforehand arrived camped out for a winter, chopped down some trees and left and they did so without telling anyone. We only know about their exploits from Icelandic oral histories which also treated the exploits of Thor as fact. Other vikings didn't even know about their cousins finding a new land. We had doubts about the validity of these histories until vikings winter camps were found in the 1960's.

There is no need to rename Columbus day.

... The Exploits of Thor are fact.

Also, Juneteenth is a dumb holiday, for the same reason that making a holiday out of the cessation of you doing horrible things to your neighbors is a dumb thing to celebrate.

You don't memorialize or celebrate the Anniversary of the day your parents stop abusing you.

[Free Ravensburg]

Columbus Day was just a ploy by Italians to live in New York

[Rojava Free State]

Let's just compromise and change Columbus Day to Based God day, when we celebrate the accomplishments and talent of Lil B.

[Greater Miami Shores]

Let's just compromise and change Columbus Day to Based God day, when we celebrate the accomplishments and talent of Lil B.

The problem is their is no compromise with these leftists.

[Rojava Free State]

Let's just compromise and change Columbus Day to Based God day, when we celebrate the accomplishments and talent of Lil B.

The problem is their is no compromise with these leftists.

>the joke
>you

[Greater Miami Shores]

The problem is their is no compromise with these leftists.

>the joke
>you

lol, the real joke on both sides, the right and the left.

[Kannap]

Let's just compromise and change Columbus Day to Based God day, when we celebrate the accomplishments and talent of Lil B.

The problem is their is no compromise with these leftists.

Likewise for people on the right.

Seems to be either "abolish Columbus Day" or don't, what's the compromise? Celebrate Columbus day from midnight to noon?

[Greater Miami Shores]

The problem is their is no compromise with these leftists.

Likewise for people on the right.

Seems to be either "abolish Columbus Day" or don't, what's the compromise? Celebrate Columbus day from midnight to noon?

Good post, lol.

[Kannap]

Likewise for people on the right.

Seems to be either "abolish Columbus Day" or don't, what's the compromise? Celebrate Columbus day from midnight to noon?

Good post, lol.

Hey, you're the one throwing accusations around. I'm curious, what's the compromise here? Because it seems like an issue that has only two real outcomes - either the holiday continues to exist or it doesn't.

[Greater Miami Shores]

Good post, lol.

Hey, you're the one throwing accusations around. I'm curious, what's the compromise here? Because it seems like an issue that has only two real outcomes - either the holiday continues to exist or it doesn't.

I admitted there is no compromise on both sides.