How to save socialism in the US (and other western countries

[Auze]

Because the ruling Party is the United Socialist Party of Venezuela ?, Because the traitorous soldiers march saying "We are socialists, chavistas and anti-imperialists" ?, Because Cuba, Russia and Iran bring mercenaries to Venezuela ?, FROM INSURANCE TO PERPETUATE "PEACE "

Claiming to be socialist doesn't mean it's true.Socialism is committed to industrialization, social welfare and poverty eradication.They will also do their best to develop education, health care and provide jobs.

Just because socialism claims to want those things doesn't mean that when it fails at those it's not socialism.

[Kubra]

Emmm..You're right.This is strange.They destroyed their only profitable business.What happened?No matter how stupid people are, they will not refuse to make money.

There was a strike, and Chavez sacked a bunch of oil workers. Then a more recent dip. But what's notably lacking is any big drop after US companies were nationalized. At the time a lot of Americans here thought that would be disastrous for Venezuela ... well politically I guess it was.

The EIA graph is no way up to date, it must be said.

that ain't all of it. Real profits were always consistently lower than projected profits because a lot of the cash just up and disappeared. You know how it goes.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

There was a strike, and Chavez sacked a bunch of oil workers. Then a more recent dip. But what's notably lacking is any big drop after US companies were nationalized. At the time a lot of Americans here thought that would be disastrous for Venezuela ... well politically I guess it was.

The EIA graph is no way up to date, it must be said.

that ain't all of it. Real profits were always consistently lower than projected profits because a lot of the cash just up and disappeared. You know how it goes.

Well I could guess ...

[Eurasies]

You know, I am not going to argue any more, not because I have no arguments, because I do have, the Internet does, but because it is not worth trying to convince a socialist of something, simply his stupidity makes it impossible, and to the friends of the right Do not try, it is like debating with a wall, a stupid wall, let them live in their world of sugar.

With respect to Venezuela, it is something that you must live in your own flesh to feel what I say (2 dollars of salary per month, a carton of eggs is worth a dollar and a half), and yes, it is obviously BLAME THE GOVERNMENT AND THE SOCIALIST SYSTEM. who else is to blame, if they are the ones who "govern" ?, not the opposition, not the US, in case you don't know the 2 golden times of Venezuela we live them in capitalism (Pérez Jiménez and Carlos Andrés Pérez), they literally nicknamed us "the millionaire of South America", we were as rich as Norway is today, trips from Miami to Caracas and vice versa were an everyday thing, the Americans came to work for Venezuela for the great corporations, ALL THANKS TO OIL AND CAPITALISM, until the "dear commander" Hugo Chávez arrived, expropriate everything, outside the businessmen, socialist progress, who most want proof, we are the country with the highest inflation in all history, in governments before Chávez (capitalists) NEVER WE WERE ON THE LISTS OF POOREST COUNTRIES OR COUNTRIES WITH GREATEST INFLATION, good it is better that they continue living on Marx and Engels while criticizing capitalism from their iPhone.

I hope someday to see my Venezuela free and without socialism or anything from the red virus, "Bolivar returns and fights with your sword, that only you can save us from the tyrant!", Greetings and LONG LIVE VENEZUELA AND "DESTRUCTIVE" CAPITALISM.

[Kubra]

that ain't all of it. Real profits were always consistently lower than projected profits because a lot of the cash just up and disappeared. You know how it goes.

Well I could guess ...

let me it this way: the Chavez government made it's projected profits based on an estimated 60 dollars a barrel when prices were consistently over, even double that, but it all disappeared.

[Cisairse]

To save socialism in the US we need a strong apolitical labor movement to use as a launchpad.

I highly recommend you all follow development of the IWW's new organizing app.

[Hirota]

What can we do to save it?

In my opinion it's simple really - stop the mission creep, the embrace of divisive identity politics and revert back to it's core values of empowering the working classes.

[The Reformed American Republic]

What can we do to save it?

In my opinion it's simple really - stop the mission creep, the embrace of divisive identity politics and revert back to it's core values of empowering the working classes.

Indeed. Focus on improving living standards and restricting the power of the elite, and economic justice, not whether a white man privilege checked.

[Kowani]

What can we do to save it?

In my opinion it's simple really - stop the mission creep, the embrace of divisive identity politics and revert back to it's core values of empowering the working classes.

He said, not realizing that “working class” is itself an identity.

[The Reformed American Republic]

In my opinion it's simple really - stop the mission creep, the embrace of divisive identity politics and revert back to it's core values of empowering the working classes.

He said, not realizing that “working class” is itself an identity.

Not the type of identity he was referring to and you know it.

[Farnhamia]

You know, I am not going to argue any more, not because I have no arguments, because I do have, the Internet does, but because it is not worth trying to convince a socialist of something, simply his stupidity makes it impossible, and to the friends of the right Do not try, it is like debating with a wall, a stupid wall, let them live in their world of sugar.

With respect to Venezuela, it is something that you must live in your own flesh to feel what I say (2 dollars of salary per month, a carton of eggs is worth a dollar and a half), and yes, it is obviously BLAME THE GOVERNMENT AND THE SOCIALIST SYSTEM. who else is to blame, if they are the ones who "govern" ?, not the opposition, not the US, in case you don't know the 2 golden times of Venezuela we live them in capitalism (Pérez Jiménez and Carlos Andrés Pérez), they literally nicknamed us "the millionaire of South America", we were as rich as Norway is today, trips from Miami to Caracas and vice versa were an everyday thing, the Americans came to work for Venezuela for the great corporations, ALL THANKS TO OIL AND CAPITALISM, until the "dear commander" Hugo Chávez arrived, expropriate everything, outside the businessmen, socialist progress, who most want proof, we are the country with the highest inflation in all history, in governments before Chávez (capitalists) NEVER WE WERE ON THE LISTS OF POOREST COUNTRIES OR COUNTRIES WITH GREATEST INFLATION, good it is better that they continue living on Marx and Engels while criticizing capitalism from their iPhone.

I hope someday to see my Venezuela free and without socialism or anything from the red virus, "Bolivar returns and fights with your sword, that only you can save us from the tyrant!", Greetings and LONG LIVE VENEZUELA AND "DESTRUCTIVE" CAPITALISM.

I thought we went over this early on in the thread: when you get angry, don't post (or at least think about what you're saying).

*** Warned for trolling ***

[Kowani]

He said, not realizing that “working class” is itself an identity.

Not the type of identity he was referring to and you know it.

Thank you for missing the point of what I was driving at entirely. Please try again.

[UniversalCommons]

Social Democrats are not socialist in the pure sense. There is a considerable difference.

[The Reformed American Republic]

Not the type of identity he was referring to and you know it.

Thank you for missing the point of what I was driving at entirely. Please try again.

I got your point. You think his ranting against "identity politics" is invalid as class is a form of identity and he subscribes to that as a valid identity. He is talking about the identity politics that entails race baiting though, and you knew that.

[Hirota]

In my opinion it's simple really - stop the mission creep, the embrace of divisive identity politics and revert back to it's core values of empowering the working classes.

He said, not realizing that “working class” is itself an identity.

Maybe, but assuming that to be true, if it came down to encouraging one division or several dozen permutations of divisions, I have my preference.

And of course, if your only argument is that I'm arguing for one division in favor of how ever many dozens, I'm very comfortable with that. In fact, it's pretty lazy as a counter.

Now that I look, have you actually coherently answered the question in the OP yourself?

I got your point. You think his ranting against "identity politics" is invalid as class is a form of identity and he subscribes to that as a valid identity. He is talking about the identity politics that entails race baiting though, and you knew that.

Quite right. And it's one that can be changed and improved - regardless of if you are a member of an ethnic minority or not.

[Kowani]

Thank you for missing the point of what I was driving at entirely. Please try again.

I got your point. You think his ranting against "identity politics" is invalid as class is a form of identity and he subscribes to that as a valid identity. He is talking about the identity politics that entails race baiting though, and you knew that.

Sigh. Almost, but no. My point is thus: All politics is identity politics, and despite the idea that race baiting is inherent to race based identity politics, I believe that there is a degree of class antagonism in every political exchange. There is, furthermore, an element of supremacism in every dialogue any nation has about class, about what class is more inherently “virtuous” or “desirable”, though it is rarely framed in such explicit terms.

He said, not realizing that “working class” is itself an identity.

Maybe, but assuming that to be true, if it came down to encouraging one division or several dozen permutations of divisions, I have my preference.

…Are you one of those people who thinks that racial disparities will be solved if we just stop talking about racism?

And of course, if your only argument is that I'm arguing for one division in favor of how ever many dozens, I'm very comfortable with that. In fact, it's pretty lazy as a counter.

No, I’m saying that your work at ignoring other divisions negatively impacts people, because they won’t be solved by ignoring them.

Now that I look, have you actually coherently answered the question in the OP yourself?

…Is this supposed to be an argument?

Quite right. And it's one that can be changed and improved - regardless of if you are a member of an ethnic minority or not.

God, I wish we had a facepalm emoji.

[Krasny-Volny]

Way I see it, Western socialists are too divided.

We have self proclaimed socialists who want a mixed economy (ie Bernie Sanders).
We then have other self proclaimed socialists who accuse those people of not being real socialists because they want a centralized planned economy.
We then have yet other self proclaimed socialists of the anarchist Marxist vein who seem to want a grassroots worker collective managed economy.

These positions on economic policy are not simply irreconcilable, they’re mutually exclusive.

I’m not voting for any socialist party or candidate until they can agree on a) what exactly socialism is or b) what exactly they want.

[Hirota]

Maybe, but assuming that to be true, if it came down to encouraging one division or several dozen permutations of divisions, I have my preference.

…Are you one of those people who thinks that racial disparities will be solved if we just stop talking about racism?

I'm one of those people who think that the largest element of division in the west is income inequality, and that this is the single largest prerequisite towards reducing or eliminating disparities, racial or otherwise.

And of course, if your only argument is that I'm arguing for one division in favor of how ever many dozens, I'm very comfortable with that. In fact, it's pretty lazy as a counter.

No, I’m saying that your work at ignoring other divisions negatively impacts people, because they won’t be solved by ignoring them.

I'm also one of those people who think those divisions are actually being widened by the segregationist nature of modern-day identity politics. I acknowledge the existence of those divisions, I reject identity politics as the solution.

Now that I look, have you actually coherently answered the question in the OP yourself?

…Is this supposed to be an argument?

I'm one of those people who think that if all you do is pointlessly bleat on about other people's opinions without being willing to venture an opinion of your own then it's really not worth worrying about your silly little bleating.

Quite right. And it's one that can be changed and improved - regardless of if you are a member of an ethnic minority or not.

God, I wish we had a facepalm emoji.

And I pray to all-powerful Atheismo that we had a "your idiotic vapid bleating is devoid of any value and I'm not very interested in it" emoji. Alas, Walken shall suffice.

[Kowani]

…Are you one of those people who thinks that racial disparities will be solved if we just stop talking about racism?

I'm one of those people who think that the largest element of division in the west is income inequality, and that this is the single largest prerequisite towards reducing or eliminating disparities, racial or otherwise.

Ah. Yeah, no. See, it’s slightly more complex than that. You see, eliminating or reducing income inequality requires putting all racial groups on the same playing field. To do this (at least in the US, I don’t know about the UK), you’ll need policies that are targeted towards minorities, in order to counteract the policies that were created in the past to put them there in the first place.

Though in fact, it might not even be true that class is a greater predictor of success than race, though this doesn’t really apply to the Uber-wealthy. What must be understood is that race and class intersect with one another to produce unique experiences with the system, and that focusing on one while rejecting the other is counterproductive.

No, I’m saying that your work at ignoring other divisions negatively impacts people, because they won’t be solved by ignoring them.

I'm also one of those people who think those divisions are actually being widened by the segregationist nature of modern-day identity politics. I acknowledge the existence of those divisions, I reject identity politics as the solution.

Ah, no. That’s just stupid. Not in the idea that these differences exist, but you seem to fundamentally misunderstand what “identity politics” is or the public response to it.

…Is this supposed to be an argument?

I'm one of those people who think that if all you do is pointlessly bleat on about other people's opinions without being willing to venture an opinion of your own then it's really not worth worrying about your silly little bleating.

God, I wish we had a facepalm emoji.

And I pray to all-powerful Atheismo that we had a "your idiotic vapid bleating is devoid of any value and I'm not very interested in it" emoji. Alas, Walken shall suffice.

Whatever you say.

[Purpelia]

True socialism is sadly dead in the west. It has been replaced by a disgusting cancerous growth that calls it self the left. True socialism does not give a dam about race, gender or any such arbitrary identity nonsense. It cares about economics, class and money. True socialism is pragmatic, materialistic socialism. Not identity socialism. But sadly that's exactly the kind of socialism that the rich elites fear and hate. Thus they pump money into the other kind to undermine and destroy us economic socialists.

And sadly there is no saving true socialism because power and money is literally against us.

[South Odreria 2]

It’s called, the labour movement.

[UniversalCommons]

Politics change. The left is moving towards participatory democracy with mixed economies. The countries with mixed economies have the highest standards of living and quality of life. Social democracy is proving itself by creating excellent living conditions. There are emerging ideas about economics which will lead to better livelihoods like technological abundance which are not political but will have repercussions on the standards by which everyone lives. Also, capitalism is slowly eating itself with near zero margin systems where the objective is growth, not profit. There are numerous systems of thinking in the mix. Green capitalism is emerging, so are things like the sharing economy. Automation and artificial intelligence is changing production which require different ways of thinking. If we continue to hold onto thinking like socialism we will not be able to handle automation properly and its impact. We are on a runaway train heading towards the future. There need to be some new approaches to where we are heading.

The main fight right now is about economics and authority. Virtually every system right now is a form of republic whether it is China, Russia, the United States or other countries. Most places are moving towards becoming republics.

[Vetalia]

Stable electricity, transportation, communications. Medical and educational coverage for all, good social security.No homelessness and low unemployment.
Because of sanctions, there is no oil, fertilizer and industrial raw materials.Food and consumer goods are in short supply, and cars and agricultural machinery cannot run.People are malnourished.
Of course, North Korea has already deviated from the socialist road, citing a bad example.I'm sorry.

lol, stable electricity, take a look at the photos of North Korea at night and compare it to South Korea and get back to me. That'd be impressive in like 1890 but not now. Hell, compare NK to China for that matter...they are literally the asshole of the world in every aspect when you consider the sheer amount of overwhelming government oppression combined with such a shitty standard of living. You'd be better off in Somalia or Congo than NK, at least in those countries you're free.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Stable electricity, transportation, communications. Medical and educational coverage for all, good social security.No homelessness and low unemployment.
Because of sanctions, there is no oil, fertilizer and industrial raw materials.Food and consumer goods are in short supply, and cars and agricultural machinery cannot run.People are malnourished.
Of course, North Korea has already deviated from the socialist road, citing a bad example.I'm sorry.

lol, stable electricity, take a look at the photos of North Korea at night and compare it to South Korea and get back to me. That'd be impressive in like 1890 but not now. Hell, compare NK to China for that matter...they are literally the asshole of the world in every aspect when you consider the sheer amount of overwhelming government oppression combined with such a shitty standard of living. You'd be better off in Somalia or Congo than NK, at least in those countries you're free.

The "pictures of North Korea at night" talking point is kinda old. So my reply might be also out of date: North Korea couldn't afford the fuel to keep power on around the clock (except in the capital where the elite live), so they declared a curfew and shut the power off each night. It was a deliberate policy not "unstable" power, and also not a complete lack of electricity infrastructure. Though I acknowledge that you didn't say the latter; some do.

You should also recognize some nuance in the position that North Korea's terrible economy is due only to their juche socialist system. Their general hostility (to everyone but China anyway) and their development of nukes are not inherently socialist things, but they did lead to the terrible sanctions which largely account for their economic failure.

We should really get over the idea that strong sanctions will cause the people to rise up and depose a military dictatorship. All the sanctions do is to entrench the government by presenting ourselves as an external enemy of the people ... and starve the people. General sanctions are bloody minded and cruel. We should have realized they were not working long before nukes and missiles proved it to us.

[Socialist States of Ludistan]

I’m pretty sure Bernie Sanders isn’t a socialist, and besides, socialism will get them one day. That day being the day when all millennials can vote and run for president.