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How to save socialism in the US (and other western countries

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Anatoliyanskiy
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Founded: Jan 19, 2020
Liberal Democratic Socialists

How to save socialism in the US (and other western countries

Postby Anatoliyanskiy » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:04 pm

After Bernie Sanders lost the Democratic nomination for president to Joe Biden, a moderate, some concerns have arisen to the survival of socialism in western democracies. After a huge Labour defeat in the UK election, a substantial loss of seats from the NDP and a large right-wing resurgence in the EU, the general socialist ideology has suffered in the past 5 years or so in the West. What can we do to save it? And what has been the instrument of it's decline?
I do know that in some western countries, like Mexico and the Nordic Countries, socialism has prevailed to an extent, so what has kept it going there but not in other places? (sorry about having to delete the poll, but this thread needed a major makeover.)
Here are a few general guidelines to follow:

-Rightists are welcomed as long as they have something constructive to say.
-We will be discussing why some socialist movements are doing poorly in the west and others decently well.
-Have fun!

Note that the discussion here should be kept at least PG-13, and please, don't stray away from the topic. Please.

And finally, have fun!
Last edited by Anatoliyanskiy on Sat Jul 04, 2020 10:17 am, edited 7 times in total.
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Mirjt
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Founded: Mar 23, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Mirjt » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:30 pm

I am in full support of this discussion thread.

To help get the thread started, I offer this prompt: What are some of the more reliable sources of news or media other socialists use that are not antagonistic towards socialism?

I personally have a list of news and media sources ranked by tier (and not all of it is pro-socialism), but two of my favorites (that are pro-socialism) are Current Affairs Magazine and TruthOut.

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Eurasies
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Eurasies » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:33 pm

I am anti-communist, bye.

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Dollystana
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Founded: Aug 31, 2019
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Dollystana » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:34 pm

Eurasies wrote:I am anti-communist, bye.

Socialism is not communism.
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Atheris
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Atheris » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:35 pm

Eurasies wrote:I am anti-communist, bye.

I'm an anti-communist myself, but I may still post here from time-to-time. Socialism =! communism.
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Eurasies
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Founded: Feb 23, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Eurasies » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:38 pm

Dollystana wrote:
Eurasies wrote:I am anti-communist, bye.

Socialism is not communism.

Communism is literally scientific socialism, Marx and Engels say it in the manifesto.

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The Cazistan
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Founded: May 20, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby The Cazistan » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:39 pm

Thoughts on Syndicalism? Specifically the ideology, not the failed practice of modern labor unions that are constructed to favor the bourgeoisie.

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Atheris
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Atheris » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:40 pm

Eurasies wrote:
Dollystana wrote:Socialism is not communism.

Communism is literally scientific socialism, Marx and Engels say it in the manifesto.

Communism is the end goal of socialism.

Socialism allows capital, and private property, and isn't fundamentally anti-capitalist; see democratic socialism.
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Kowani
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:40 pm

Eurasies wrote:
Dollystana wrote:Socialism is not communism.

Communism is literally scientific socialism, Marx and Engels say it in the manifesto.

Okay, using the Mainfesto as a guide to leftist thought is…problematic at best.
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Dollystana
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Dollystana » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:40 pm

Atheris wrote:
Eurasies wrote:Communism is literally scientific socialism, Marx and Engels say it in the manifesto.

Communism is the end goal of socialism.

Socialism allows capital, and private property, and isn't fundamentally anti-capitalist; see democratic socialism.

Yes
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Kargintina the Third
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Corporate Bordello

Postby Kargintina the Third » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:43 pm

[redacted]
Last edited by Kargintina the Third on Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mirjt
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Founded: Mar 23, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Mirjt » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:44 pm

Maybe the first thing this thread discusses, should make it clear what the definitions of socialism and other leftist ideologies are. On the other hand though, there are other threads that discuss what the definitions of socialism and communism and capitalism are, and since this is the socialist discussion thread you could assume that the socialists that come here to talk about socialism and related topics already know what socialism is.

Though to be clear communism is a type of anarchism (but not all forms of anarchism are communism), anarchism is a type of libertarian socialism, libertarian socialism is a type of socialism. Communism does not have to be marxist, and not all marxists are communists, though there is considerable overlap between the two. Communism is defined as a stateless, classless, moneyless society where private property (not personal property) has been abolished and the economy is completely socialist.
Last edited by Mirjt on Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

“Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free.” ― Eugene V. Debs

I am going on vacation from NS again (I might check up on the Food thread though)
I have to take frequent vacations from NS, because sometimes (though not always) NSG feels like one of the more toxic places on the web.

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Atheris
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Atheris » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:44 pm

Kowani wrote:
Eurasies wrote:Communism is literally scientific socialism, Marx and Engels say it in the manifesto.

Okay, using the Mainfesto as a guide to leftist thought is…problematic at best.

Indeed. You can have leftists like me who are anti-communist, much like you can have right-wingers that are anti-fascist.
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Eurasies
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Eurasies » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:46 pm

Atheris wrote:
Eurasies wrote:Communism is literally scientific socialism, Marx and Engels say it in the manifesto.

Communism is the end goal of socialism.

Socialism allows capital, and private property, and isn't fundamentally anti-capitalist; see democratic socialism.

With what you say it is shown that true socialism / communism is unsustainable, they need capitalism, it is literally impossible for the means of production to be of the state, the Soviet Union tried it, and does it continue to exist?

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Dollystana
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Founded: Aug 31, 2019
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Dollystana » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:46 pm

Atheris wrote:
Kowani wrote:Okay, using the Mainfesto as a guide to leftist thought is…problematic at best.

Indeed. You can have leftists like me who are anti-communist, much like you can have right-wingers that are anti-fascist.

Yes. Just... being liberal doesn't make you socialist or communist.
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Eurasies
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Eurasies » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:47 pm

Kowani wrote:
Eurasies wrote:Communism is literally scientific socialism, Marx and Engels say it in the manifesto.

Okay, using the Mainfesto as a guide to leftist thought is…problematic at best.

Isn't that the left-handed Bible?

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Atheris
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Postby Atheris » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:48 pm

Eurasies wrote:
Kowani wrote:Okay, using the Mainfesto as a guide to leftist thought is…problematic at best.

Isn't that the left-handed Bible?

No, much how like Mein Kampf isn't the right-handed Bible.

Eurasies wrote:
Atheris wrote:Communism is the end goal of socialism.

Socialism allows capital, and private property, and isn't fundamentally anti-capitalist; see democratic socialism.

With what you say it is shown that true socialism / communism is unsustainable, they need capitalism, it is literally impossible for the means of production to be of the state, the Soviet Union tried it, and does it continue to exist?

In my opinion, yes. Communism is unsustainable and was proven to be after the death of Lenin.
Last edited by Atheris on Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dollystana
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Founded: Aug 31, 2019
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Dollystana » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:48 pm

Eurasies wrote:
Kowani wrote:Okay, using the Mainfesto as a guide to leftist thought is…problematic at best.

Isn't that the left-handed Bible?

No?
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Kargintina the Third
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Corporate Bordello

Postby Kargintina the Third » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:48 pm

Where is National
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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:50 pm

This thread is likely going to get locked, because it fails the following standard that the Mods have set:

Reploid Productions wrote:What qualifies for a megathread?
  • A topic which has at its focus a specific, singular subject, such as a current news event (IE: election thread, anti-police protests), a frequent recurring debate (IE: abortion, gun control), or a political figure (IE: the US president.)
  • Discussion on that specific, singular subject as the thread's primary focus, not simple socializing motivated by underlying interest in the subject. Conversational drift is okay, but it must remain on that specific, singular primary focus.

This thread is essentially just the LWDT with a different label slapped on it.

The OP could remedy it by editing the thread premise to make it more focused, perhaps on a specific question.

EDIT: And the thread premise has been changed. All is well once again.
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Federal States of Xathuecia
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Federal States of Xathuecia » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:51 pm

Kargintina the Third wrote:Where is National

what?
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Eurasies
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Founded: Feb 23, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Eurasies » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:51 pm

Atheris wrote:
Eurasies wrote:Isn't that the left-handed Bible?

No, much how like Mein Kampf isn't the right-handed Bible.

Eurasies wrote:With what you say it is shown that true socialism / communism is unsustainable, they need capitalism, it is literally impossible for the means of production to be of the state, the Soviet Union tried it, and does it continue to exist?

In my opinion, yes. Communism is unsustainable and was proven to be after the death of Lenin.

Fascism is the third way, it is not communism or capitalism, it is fascism, Mein Kapf is the Bible of the axis.

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Nuroblav
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Founded: Nov 13, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Nuroblav » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:57 pm

Federal States of Xathuecia wrote:
Kargintina the Third wrote:Where is National

what?

I think they mean National Socialism, which to my knowledge was mainly free market except for some government regulations. No political expert though :p
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Atheris
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Atheris » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:57 pm

Eurasies wrote:
Atheris wrote:No, much how like Mein Kampf isn't the right-handed Bible.


In my opinion, yes. Communism is unsustainable and was proven to be after the death of Lenin.

Fascism is the third way, it is not communism or capitalism, it is fascism, Mein Kapf is the Bible of the axis.

Yeah, you're right. Maybe Patriarcha: or the Natural Power of Kings or Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine would've been better examples.

Nuroblav wrote:
Federal States of Xathuecia wrote:what?

I think they mean National Socialism, which to my knowledge was mainly free market except for some government regulations. No political expert though :p

It was neither, really. It had some socialist aspects in its economics but also had very capitalist aspects in others.

Fascist economies can't really be classified as either free-market or socialist. That's one of the reasons why Fascism is the Third Way.
Last edited by Atheris on Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceranapis wrote:"Who needs a country when you can write Ace Attorney fan fiction?"
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Eurasies
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Founded: Feb 23, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Eurasies » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:57 pm

Atheris wrote:
Kowani wrote:Okay, using the Mainfesto as a guide to leftist thought is…problematic at best.

Indeed. You can have leftists like me who are anti-communist, much like you can have right-wingers that are anti-fascist.

Fascism is not far right, in case you don't remember the Nazi Party it was the German National-Socialist Party.

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