So what's plan B if defunding cops creates anarchy?

[Kowani]

Considering that only 46% of violent crime, and 19% of property crimes result in an arrest and charge, much less a conviction, and this has held fro decades now, I don’t think your argument really holds water.

You also realize that, in 2015, only 46.5% of violent crime was reported to police while only 34.6% of property crimes were. It makes sense that police only solve 46% of violent crime and 19% of property crime, due to the fact that the vast majority of violent crime isn't reported and the vast majority of property crimes are things like theft and burglary, which are often hard to solve due to the lack of evidence. You can see the stats of crimes reported here on page 6

That would be a good argument if not for the fact that despite a mostly static report rate, the clearance rate only goes down.

[Kenche Gle]

No, I already told you my argument. Police already deal with a ton of crime and the police force being a thing acts as a deterrent for people to actually go out there and do crimes. So your stance that "defunding the police wouldn't make things worse" and that "police already do nothing about crime" is faulty.

Well the police being present didn't deter that assault. The police also refused to intercede in the assault when it happened right in front of them.

As stated before, the police are deterred from doing anything solely due to the fact that the news will spin it around to make them look bad and would overall be a detriment to the entire police force.

[Ifreann]

Excellent.

So how is crime prevented

Changing the circumstances which lead to crime.

or punished?

Punishing crime doesn't really seem to be working, I'd suggest just giving that up.

---

Excellent.

*Crimes runs rampant and hundreds of murders happen every day*

I expect that the police would actually find it much more difficult to murder people after turning in their badge and gun.

[La Xinga]

So how is crime prevented

Changing the circumstances which lead to crime.

or punished?

Punishing crime doesn't really seem to be working, I'd suggest just giving that up.

---

*Crimes runs rampant and hundreds of murders happen every day*

I expect that the police would actually find it much more difficult to murder people after turning in their badge and gun.

"Hmm, it seems other people kill people besides police officers!"

[Radfems Inc]

Punishing crime doesn't really seem to be working, I'd suggest just giving that up.

"Sir, you raped and murdered 35 women. We'd like to talk to you about it."

"What?"

"Yes, we have you on film from different locations raping 35 women. We'd like to talk to you about your feelings and why you would do this."

"Well, my father was abusive, and I guess it was just normal."

"We understand. Let's get you some counseling and some thorazine, and we'll check in with you in a couple weeks to see how it's going."

"Seriously?"

"Yes sir. Have a nice day!"

[Kowani]

Punishing crime doesn't really seem to be working, I'd suggest just giving that up.

"Sir, you raped and murdered 35 women. We'd like to talk to you about it."

"What?"

"Yes, we have you on film from different locations raping 35 women. We'd like to talk to you about your feelings and why you would do this."

"Well, my father was abusive, and I guess it was just normal."

"We understand. Let's get you some counseling and some thorazine, and we'll check in with you in a couple weeks to see how it's going."

"Seriously?"

"Yes sir. Have a nice day!"

Well, considering that incarceration only seems to increase crime, perhaps we should find a system that isn’t based around punishment.

[Radfems Inc]

"Sir, you raped and murdered 35 women. We'd like to talk to you about it."

"What?"

"Yes, we have you on film from different locations raping 35 women. We'd like to talk to you about your feelings and why you would do this."

"Well, my father was abusive, and I guess it was just normal."

"We understand. Let's get you some counseling and some thorazine, and we'll check in with you in a couple weeks to see how it's going."

"Seriously?"

"Yes sir. Have a nice day!"

Well, considering that incarceration only seems to increase crime, perhaps we should find a system that isn’t based around punishment.

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[Kenche Gle]

That would be a good argument if not for the fact that despite a mostly static report rate, the clearance rate only goes down.

That would be a good argument if not for the fact that the banning or discouraging of many policing practices (like stop-and-frisk, broken-window patrols) occured at the same time that the clearance rate went lower. I wonder if it has anything to do with the way police officers are being trained (they're not being trained nearly as much as they should be) and the fact that the policing system in the USA now is focused on solving crimes rather than preventing them, something that the PDs are often not there to do.

[Gormwood]

So how is crime prevented

Changing the circumstances which lead to crime.

or punished?

Punishing crime doesn't really seem to be working, I'd suggest just giving that up.

So think real life is Smurf Village and have no consequences for crimes, or make The Purge a real thing. Great argument for disbanding police

[Stellar Colonies]

Punishing crime doesn't really seem to be working, I'd suggest just giving that up.

"Sir, you raped and murdered 35 women. We'd like to talk to you about it."

"What?"

"Yes, we have you on film from different locations raping 35 women. We'd like to talk to you about your feelings and why you would do this."

"Well, my father was abusive, and I guess it was just normal."

"We understand. Let's get you some counseling and some thorazine, and we'll check in with you in a couple weeks to see how it's going."

"Seriously?"

"Yes sir. Have a nice day!"

Yes, it may be difficult to rehabilitate a rapist, especially if he or she is not willing to change.

Rehabilitating people like that is far more difficult than small-time criminals who only broke the law out of desperation, such as if they're in poverty. As stated elsewhere in the thread, a good way to start cutting crime in general would be attacking the circumstances which lead to it. (poverty, etc.)

[Kowani]

Well, considering that incarceration only seems to increase crime, perhaps we should find a system that isn’t based around punishment.

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The supplied document identifier does not match
any document in our repository.

this should work.

That would be a good argument if not for the fact that despite a mostly static report rate, the clearance rate only goes down.

That would be a good argument if not for the fact that the banning or discouraging of many policing practices (like stop-and-frisk, broken-window patrols) occured at the same time that the clearance rate went lower. I wonder if it has anything to do with the way police officers are being trained (they're not being trained nearly as much as they should be) and the fact that the policing system in the USA now is focused on solving crimes rather than preventing them, something that the PDs are often not there to do.

Sigh. Neither of the tactics you cited are actually effective at all.

Now, you’re conflating crime rates (because both of those tactics were developed in very specific jurisdictions in the middle of a nationwide crime high-of course criminality decreased afterwards. But see, the thing is, it decreased nationwide, even in places that didn’t use either of those tactics..

[Kenche Gle]

Sigh. Neither of the tactics you cited are actually effective at all.

Now, you’re conflating crime rates (because both of those tactics were developed in very specific jurisdictions in the middle of a nationwide crime high-of course criminality decreased afterwards. But see, the thing is, it decreased nationwide, even in places that didn’t use either of those tactics..

There's evidence that both broken-windows and stop-and-frisk work (I provided wikipedia for broken-windows policing, as the instances of the paper for it that I found are download-only)

Regardless, my main point was that the police are not properly trained and should be given extensive training even after academy and constant mental and physical screening.

[Kowani]

Sigh. Neither of the tactics you cited are actually effective at all.

Now, you’re conflating crime rates (because both of those tactics were developed in very specific jurisdictions in the middle of a nationwide crime high-of course criminality decreased afterwards. But see, the thing is, it decreased nationwide, even in places that didn’t use either of those tactics..

There's evidence that both broken-windows

“ However, other studies do not find a cause and effect relationship between the adoption of such policies and decreases in crime.[6][25] The decrease may have been part of a broader trend across the United States. Other cities also experienced less crime, even though they had different police policies. Other factors, such as the 39% drop in New York City's unemployment rate, could also explain the decrease reported by Kelling and Sousa.[26]

A 2017 study found that when the New York Police Department (NYPD) stopped aggressively enforcing minor legal statutes in late 2014 and early 2015 that civilian complaints of three major crimes (burglary, felony assault, and grand larceny) decreased (slightly with large error bars) during and shortly after sharp reductions in proactive policing. There was no statistically significant effect on other major crimes such as murder, rape, robbery, or grand theft auto. These results are touted as challenging prevailing scholarship as well as conventional wisdom on authority and legal compliance by implying that aggressively enforcing minor legal statutes incites more severe criminal acts.”

and stop-and-frisk work (I provided wikipedia for broken-windows policing, as the instances of the paper for it that I found are download-only)

This does not say what you think it does.

Regardless, my main point was that the police are not properly trained and should be given extensive training even after academy and constant mental and physical screening.

This is true, but it won’t be effective until the entire police culture is torn down and a new one is built in its place.

[Kenche Gle]

You just provided a snippet basically saying that "we found this, but other researchers did not", that crime reduced nationwide regardless of policing systems (which is true) and a snippet about how complaints about crimes decreased SHORTLY after reductions in proactive policing (so not a permanent reduction, crime complaints rised back up after a short time), and that aggressively enforcing minor legal statutes incites more severe criminal acts (which is true). Congrats, you showed things that has nothing to do with whether or not the thing we were talking about actually works.

Also, "police culture" doesn't need to be "torn down". You enforce more training and screenings on police officers (which might require more funding than right now) and the "police culture" will accomodate the changes. There's no reason to go after whatever "culture" the police has if the way police officers' behaviours changes, as the "culture" will change with it

[Kowani]

You just provided a snippet basically saying that "we found this, but other researchers did not", that crime reduced nationwide regardless of policing systems (which is true)

Yes, it’s called a conflationary variable, which your studies didn’t account for.

and a snippet about how complaints about crimes decreased SHORTLY after reductions in proactive policing (so not a permanent reduction, crime complaints rised back up after a short time),

1: That’s not what shortly means.
2: I actually followed up on the citations, because you know, I like to be thorough, and unsurprisingly, that’s not what happened.

and that aggressively enforcing minor legal statutes incites more severe criminal acts (which is true).

…That’s what broken windows policing is.

Congrats, you showed things that has nothing to do with whether or not the thing we were talking about actually works.

Can you not follow the discussion?

…Culture causes behavior, not the other way around.

[Big Jim P]

Having guns isn't going to stop crime either.

It most certainly will if you shoot the criminal.

[Gormwood]

Having guns isn't going to stop crime either.

It most certainly will if you shoot the criminal.

Oh right, Mutually Assured Destruction as a crime deterrent.

[Big Jim P]

It most certainly will if you shoot the criminal.

Oh right, Mutually Assured Destruction as a crime deterrent.

Who said anything about deterrence? Although armed citizens are a good deterrent, I am talking about stopping a criminals in the act. Eliminating criminals is a good solution.

[Thepeopl]

^^

More compassion, less jail time.

No. Reform and Labour for prison. They are to have a working life in prison while being reformed. Also, the police should always refer to a baton and martial arts in case of someone disobeying orders instead of always drawing out their gun, they should only draw out their gun in a situation where the suspect has a lethal weapon with them.

The social workers and health care workers will not have need for batons/ weapons because they offer help, food and shelter.
They talk with aggressive people and calm them down.
Prison time doesn't reform people, education and being heard/ seen does.

[Gormwood]

Oh right, Mutually Assured Destruction as a crime deterrent.

Who said anything about deterrence? Although armed citizens are a good deterrent, I am talking about stopping a criminals in the act. Eliminating criminals is a good solution.

And with natural selection the only criminals continuing will be the ones armed and willing to shoot without provocation. Still M.A.D.

[Slavakino]

The police already do nothing about crime when it happens right in front of them, so I'm failing to see how defunding the police will make things worse.

Gee I wonder why

[Slavakino]

Punishing crime doesn't really seem to be working, I'd suggest just giving that up.

Death penalty

[Greed and Death]

The police already do nothing about crime when it happens right in front of them, so I'm failing to see how defunding the police will make things worse.

Looked to me like they rode in there and deescalated the confrontation. I thought that was the new preferred non violent method y'all wanted ?

[Stylan]

>me
>a libertarian
lmfao dude

I just think it's funny you call yourself a commie when in reality you're basically just a strasserist, or even worse a social democrat who hates gays and blacks.

I consider myself a Titoist (or Marxist-Leninist if you wanna go that route) with socially conservative views. I'm not a modern commie, I want my Yugo back. I dislike Stalinists, progressive lefties and these "fake commies" heavily

Ok bro, lmfao, Lenin literally legalized homosexuality in 1917, but be homphobic aight

[Slavakino]

I consider myself a Titoist (or Marxist-Leninist if you wanna go that route) with socially conservative views. I'm not a modern commie, I want my Yugo back. I dislike Stalinists, progressive lefties and these "fake commies" heavily

Ok bro, lmfao, Lenin literally legalized homosexuality in 1917, but be homphobic aight

Yet Stalin imprisoned homosexuals, and you consider yourself a tankie