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by Radiatia » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:47 am
by Ostroeuropa » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:51 am
Liriena wrote:LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Here's the problem with that proposal... since when was anyone any good at predicting anyone else's motives for what they do?
Here's the problem with your question, and basically your entire post:
1. Insofar as crimes go, it's not an issue of individual motives. It's an issue of underlying social and economic causes for crimes on a broader scale.
2. A big part of why people want to focus resources away from police is that the imbalance in resources leads to cops being used to respond to problems and emergencies that would be better addressed by other kinds of professionals. For example, using cops to respond to mentally ill people suffering a crisis. Police flat out are being overused to deal with problems they have no business dealing with.
by The Emerald Legion » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:56 am
Chan Island wrote:Picairn wrote:People are arguing whether defunding the police is a good idea and I'm sitting here, like: How about we reform the entire structure of police training, equipment and social programs altogether?
This is an institutional problem, not a budgetary one. The entire police structure right now is a leftover legacy of the 80s' War on Drugs. It's time we bring the police into the 21st century.
But of course, that will cost more, not less.
Institutions are directly impacted by their funding. Do you not think that these structures feeling all powerful and unaccountable is related to their vast amount of funding?
As it stands the police use that cash to buy military vehicles and spare assault rifles.
by Picairn » Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:37 am
Chan Island wrote:Institutions are directly impacted by their funding. Do you not think that these structures feeling all powerful and unaccountable is related to their vast amount of funding?
As it stands the police use that cash to buy military vehicles and spare assault rifles.
by Krasny-Volny » Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:11 pm
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:So we're hearing a lot of talk about defunding police and putting that money into social services instead. The idea, presumably, is that if these "social services" could somehow address every other possible motive for committing crime in the first place, we wouldn't need as much policing.
Here's the problem with that proposal... since when was anyone any good at predicting anyone else's motives for what they do?
No, really. I recall 2016, when the notion that respondents who claimed they'd vote Clinton if she were the candidate were lying through their teeth were met with "why would they lie"? Doesn't matter. They did. People do what they do for reasons neither you nor I nor the so-called "experts" who got it wrong could ever hope to comperehend. The delusion that if you do not anticipate their motives, such motives cannot exist, feels like a false dichotomy fit to rival "God of the gaps."
So now proposals to defund the police invoke the delusion that they have every possible motive for crime figured out; and they want us to, based on this tenuous reasoning, weaken the one institution known to hold crime back.
My question to them is; what if you're wrong? What is your plan B, if people have reasons for committing crimes that you fail to anticipate, predict, or comprehend, and these reasons are all unleashed? Is a return to policing as it was before possible, or would the change, or at least some of the effects thereof, be permanent? Is there a third option you could jump to from there, that might be relatively safer? If so, what is it?
My alternative? If we think we know why crime happens, then rather than defunding the police, why not address those supposed motives first, and then weaken police presence very slowly and gradually so if it works out badly we can reverse the trend before it's too late?
by Gormwood » Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:22 pm
by North German Realm » Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:42 pm
Gormwood wrote:It's lazier and sexier to assume "defund police" means "take away all their money period" instead of "take away excess funding they spend on military gear and tactics".
5 Nov, 2020
Die Morgenpost: "We will reconsider our relationship with Poland" Reichskanzler Lagenmauer says after Polish president protested North German ultimatum that made them restore reproductive freedom. | European Society votes not to persecute Hungary for atrocities committed against Serbs, "Giving a rogue state leave to commit genocide as it sees fit." North German delegate bemoans. | Negotiations still underway in Rome, delegates arguing over the extent of indemnities Turkey might be made to pay, lawful status of Turkish collaborators during occupation of Azerbaijan, Cyprus, Syria.
by Picairn » Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:05 am
North German Realm wrote:I mean, taking away all their money should be the end-goal imo.
by Kowani » Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:22 am
by North German Realm » Sat Jul 04, 2020 12:40 am
5 Nov, 2020
Die Morgenpost: "We will reconsider our relationship with Poland" Reichskanzler Lagenmauer says after Polish president protested North German ultimatum that made them restore reproductive freedom. | European Society votes not to persecute Hungary for atrocities committed against Serbs, "Giving a rogue state leave to commit genocide as it sees fit." North German delegate bemoans. | Negotiations still underway in Rome, delegates arguing over the extent of indemnities Turkey might be made to pay, lawful status of Turkish collaborators during occupation of Azerbaijan, Cyprus, Syria.
by Picairn » Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:13 am
Kowani wrote:…Do you think anarchy just means “no police lol”?
by Picairn » Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:15 am
North German Realm wrote:While that is categorically false, what part of "take away the police's funds" did you take for anarchy?
by Purpelia » Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:19 am
by Nobel Hobos 2 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:55 am
Gormwood wrote:It's lazier and sexier to assume "defund police" means "take away all their money period" instead of "take away excess funding they spend on military gear and tactics".
by Greater vakolicci haven » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:11 am
by Neuer Deutsches Reich » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:13 am
by Nobel Hobos 2 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:25 am
Neuer Deutsches Reich wrote:Don’t defund it in the first place
by VVerkia » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:44 am
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:So we're hearing a lot of talk about defunding police and putting that money into social services instead. The idea, presumably, is that if these "social services" could somehow address every other possible motive for committing crime in the first place, we wouldn't need as much policing.
Here's the problem with that proposal... since when was anyone any good at predicting anyone else's motives for what they do?
No, really. I recall 2016, when the notion that respondents who claimed they'd vote Clinton if she were the candidate were lying through their teeth were met with "why would they lie"? Doesn't matter. They did. People do what they do for reasons neither you nor I nor the so-called "experts" who got it wrong could ever hope to comperehend. The delusion that if you do not anticipate their motives, such motives cannot exist, feels like a false dichotomy fit to rival "God of the gaps."
So now proposals to defund the police invoke the delusion that they have every possible motive for crime figured out; and they want us to, based on this tenuous reasoning, weaken the one institution known to hold crime back.
My question to them is; what if you're wrong? What is your plan B, if people have reasons for committing crimes that you fail to anticipate, predict, or comprehend, and these reasons are all unleashed? Is a return to policing as it was before possible, or would the change, or at least some of the effects thereof, be permanent? Is there a third option you could jump to from there, that might be relatively safer? If so, what is it?
My alternative? If we think we know why crime happens, then rather than defunding the police, why not address those supposed motives first, and then weaken police presence very slowly and gradually so if it works out badly we can reverse the trend before it's too late?
by Free Federal States » Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:04 am
by Purpelia » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:10 am
Ifreann wrote:What's plan B if funding the police doesn't stop crime?
by Ifreann » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:19 am
by Nobel Hobos 2 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:21 am
Purpelia wrote:And having a functional police force does in fact reduce crime considerably.
by Picairn » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:36 am
Ifreann wrote:What's plan B if funding the police doesn't stop crime?
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