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Russia tried to murder US soldiers and Trump Ignored It

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Shofercia
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Posts: 30012
Founded: Feb 22, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:34 pm

Gormwood wrote:
Cisairse wrote:What does your post have to do with my post?

Shof jumps into any thread that casts Russia in a negative light and starts poisoning the wells.


Quick, someone said something mean about one of Clinton's favorite newspapers, send out the bat signal! Except, as is typical of your attacks on me Gormwood, you're lying through your teeth. There's a thread, about Putin extending his term. I never had any plans to support him in that thread, and I was even going to make fun of him, but found the thread too toxic for humor, and decided to ignore it.

Although it's interesting that you say "any thread that casts Russia in a negative light" - because you're projecting, since you're the one who's defending Hilary Clinton, one of the chief warmongers in Iraq and Libya, irrespective of what she does, in any thread that casts her in a bad light, even when her actions are completely indefensible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DXDU48RHLU

Look, you're welcome to challenge any of the arguments I make, but if you're going to go in for name calling, I am going to continue exposing you as incredibly pro-Clinton. I'd rather focus on the substance of the argument than on defending myself, but to hear the most fervent Hilary Clinton defender on NSG accuse anyone else of bias, is rather laughable, and the "hear ye, hear ye, mah opponetz b poisonin' da wellz" is something I'd rather read on an elementary school RP board, than on an analytical for. Attack the argument, not the person making it, unless you want your own bias called out. Now can we go back to the topic at hand without the name calling?


Cisairse wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
NYT's record:

Supported War in Iraq
Supported War with Libya
Supported Escalation in Ukraine
Supported Taking a Bigger Role in Syria
Supported Bolton's Book, which called for War with Iran, without even trying to discredit that part of it

I think the New York Times can independently assess how the military industrial complex's balls taste, since NYT constantly has said balls in their mouth.

Feel free to explain how NYT's reporting did any of that.


Gladly:

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2004/ ... ing.usnews

The New York Times today issued an extraordinary mea culpa over its coverage of Iraq, admitting it had been misled about the presence of weapons of mass destruction by sources including the controversial Iraqi leader Ahmad Chalabi. In a note to readers published today under the headline 'The Times and Iraq', the editors of the newspaper said they had found "a number of instances of coverage that was not as rigorous as it should have been".

"In some cases, information that was controversial then, and seems questionable now, was insufficiently qualified or allowed to stand unchallenged. "Looking back, we wish we had been more aggressive in re-examining the claims as new evidence emerged - or failed to emerge," they continued.


Of course it's not like the New York Times learned anything, just that they apologized in a desperate bid to get their credibility back, akin to an alcoholic swearing that he'll never drink, is the New York Times swearing that they'll never call for war on questionable intelligence ever again. Cue the laugh track.

https://scholarworks.wmich.edu/cgi/view ... ers_theses

This project derives a set of research expectations from the propaganda model, a structural model of the corporate news media developed by Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky. The model predicts that the news media will reflect elite views and priorities and marginalize views outside the range of elite opinion. Consequently, it is expected that the media will tend to support the elite’s preferred modes of exercising state power in international affairs. This often entails demonizing official enemies of the United States in order to justify military interventions while downplaying the crimes of the United States and its allies.

To see how well these expectations are borne out in recent times, I apply discourse and content analysis to a sample of the New York Times’ coverage of Libya in the weeks preceding the 2011 NATO intervention in Libya. Three research expectations are presented: Coverage will mirror the U.S. government story line, conforming to the tenets of American exceptionalism; Muammar Gaddafi will be demonized, the nature and extent of his crimes will be exaggerated; Gaddafi’s victims will receive extensive, sympathetic coverage, while black Libyan victims of the anti-Gaddafi opposition will be marginalized. The analysis of New York Times articles on Libya from February 15 to March 19, 2011, shows that the research expectations are met, providing empirical support for the propaganda model.


That's from an actual research paper, with facts, analysis, etc. As far as Ukraine's concerned, here's a tweet from Mark Ames. Contrary to the Clinton fan club assertions, Ames ain't exactly a fan of Putin; some time ago Ames made a crude and dumb comment, and Putin's Administration ousted Ames' paper from Russia over said comment; that was wrong. Unlike Gormwood, who rarely, if ever, critiques Clinton, as if she as an infallible dear leader, like Leonid Brezhnev pretended that he was, I'm open to criticism of Russia, and not a fan of Putin's recent extension of his term. Ames' comment should've been called out for its sheer lunacy and stupidity, but who here hasn't said something dumb? So with that said, here's Ames: https://twitter.com/markamesexiled/stat ... 1956232192

Hilarious how hard this @nytimes article struggles to pin North Korea's Ukrainian ICBMs on Russia, relying on crude suggestion


Long story short, Ukraine's couped-in leadership decided to underpay its nuclear scientists, who sold their work product to North Korea, because working in North Korea's better than starvation. To the New York Times this wasn't the fault of the US, Clinton, and Obama for going through with the coup; nope, that was the fault of Russia.

As for Syria, just look at their articles at the now discredited Douma Chemical Attack, which was later discredited, and cast massive shade on the leadership of the OPCW: https://mronline.org/2020/01/24/opcw-in ... uma-syria/

In May 2019, an internal OPCW engineering assessment was leaked to the public. The document, authored by Ian Henderson, said the “dimensions, characteristics and appearance of the cylinders” in Douma “were inconsistent with what would have been expected in the case of either cylinder having been delivered from an aircraft,” adding that there is “a higher probability that both cylinders were manually placed at those two locations rather than being delivered from aircraft.”

After reviewing the leaked report, MIT professor emeritus of Science, Technology and International Security Theodore Postol told The Grayzone, “The evidence is overwhelming that the gas attacks were staged.” Postol also accused OPCW leadership of overseeing “compromised reporting” and ignoring scientific evidence.


Remember, a 12 year veteran losing his job, and/or resigning from the OPCW, is totally not a sign of OPCW's ineptitude, but two journalists resigning from RT, who worked there for a few years, totally shows how utterly biased RT in the minds of Clinton supporters. As for John Bolton, here's the New York Times: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/18/us/p ... aways.html

While he agreed with Mr. Trump on issues like getting out of the nuclear accord with Iran, he found himself repeatedly trying to stop the president from making concessions to other rogue states or making an ill-considered peace deal with the Taliban in Afghanistan while pushing for a more robust use of force against outliers like Iran or Syria. He considered Mr. Trump’s diplomacy to be folly.


Trump killed an Iranian leader on Iraqi soil. Next step up would be war with Iran. Not doing so would be a "folly" according to that article, as it offers ample evidence for what it believes would be showing Trump's foreign policy as bad. Even the brainiacs at the NYT can figure out that bad is the opposite of good, so if not invading Iran is bad, then invading Iran would be good.
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Ansarre
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Founded: Jun 23, 2020
Right-wing Utopia

Postby Ansarre » Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:00 am

Kowani wrote:
Ansarre wrote:Washington PostJeff Bezos is good if you avoid their opinion pieces.. I regularly go to the Guardian,Financial Timesmultibillion Japanese company,Foreign Affairsmouthpiece for the elite, the EconomistItalian multibillionaires, and the Telegraph British billionaires. All good sources. CNN AT&T definitely is independent though, unlike RT which is directly controlled by the Kremlin.

Wow. One independent paper.

Being owned by rich people doesn't mean they're not independent. Personally, I think that billionaires and millionaires owning newspapers makes them even more trustworthy.
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Cisairse
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:17 am

Ansarre wrote:
Kowani wrote:Wow. One independent paper.

Being owned by rich people doesn't mean they're not independent. Personally, I think that billionaires and millionaires owning newspapers makes them even more trustworthy.

er, what?
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

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Atheris
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Atheris » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:17 am

Ansarre wrote:
Kowani wrote:Wow. One independent paper.

Being owned by rich people doesn't mean they're not independent. Personally, I think that billionaires and millionaires owning newspapers makes them even more trustworthy.

Even I have problems with that.
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Kowani
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:23 am

Ansarre wrote:
Kowani wrote:Wow. One independent paper.

Being owned by rich people doesn't mean they're not independent. Personally, I think that billionaires and millionaires owning newspapers makes them even more trustworthy.

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Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

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Outer Sparta
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Outer Sparta » Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:47 pm

Ansarre wrote:
Kowani wrote:Wow. One independent paper.

Being owned by rich people doesn't mean they're not independent. Personally, I think that billionaires and millionaires owning newspapers makes them even more trustworthy.

Also applies to Fox News and NewsCorp as well as WSJ.
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Slavakino
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Ex-Nation

Postby Slavakino » Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:58 pm

Ansarre wrote:
Kowani wrote:Wow. One independent paper.

Being owned by rich people doesn't mean they're not independent. Personally, I think that billionaires and millionaires owning newspapers makes them even more trustworthy.

You brainwashed yourself lmao.
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The Black Forrest
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:01 pm

Slavakino wrote:
Ansarre wrote:Being owned by rich people doesn't mean they're not independent. Personally, I think that billionaires and millionaires owning newspapers makes them even more trustworthy.

You brainwashed yourself lmao.


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Shofercia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:23 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Slavakino wrote:You brainwashed yourself lmao.


How does one brainwash himself?


By voluntarily watching Cuomo & Lemon, or reading the New York Times.
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The Sovereign Realist State
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Founded: Jul 27, 2019
Moralistic Democracy

Postby The Sovereign Realist State » Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:22 pm

So has this story been verified yet or are we still waiting?...........

Any day now............

just like the rest of the russophobic propaganda for the past 10 years........

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Cisairse
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:26 pm

The Sovereign Realist State wrote:So has this story been verified yet or are we still waiting?...........

Any day now............

just like the rest of the russophobic propaganda for the past 10 years........

It's been verified for quite some time.
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

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Gormwood
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Ex-Nation

Postby Gormwood » Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:31 pm

Cisairse wrote:
The Sovereign Realist State wrote:So has this story been verified yet or are we still waiting?...........

Any day now............

just like the rest of the russophobic propaganda for the past 10 years........

It's been verified for quite some time.

The U.S. intelligence community is Russophobia Central obviously.
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Punished UMN
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:41 pm

Briefly breaking my forumlessness to ask what you guys think the Soviet reaction to the US providing SAM missiles to the Mujihadeen should have been.
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Punished UMN
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:45 pm

Also, since when is killing armed, uniformed soldiers in a war murder?
Last edited by Punished UMN on Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cisairse
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:48 pm

Punished UMN wrote:Also, since when is killing armed, uniformed soldiers in a war murder?


We are not at war with Russia.
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

Yeah, I support my troops
They wave black flags
They wear black masks

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Punished UMN
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Founded: Jul 05, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:49 pm

Cisairse wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:Also, since when is killing armed, uniformed soldiers in a war murder?


We are not at war with Russia.

Russia wasn't the one killing US soldiers, they just paid someone who was at war with us to do it.
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Cisairse
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:51 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
Cisairse wrote:
We are not at war with Russia.

Russia wasn't the one killing US soldiers, they just paid someone who was at war with us to do it.

Right. This is an act of aggression, because we are not at war with Russia.
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

Yeah, I support my troops
They wave black flags
They wear black masks

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Punished UMN
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Founded: Jul 05, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:52 pm

Cisairse wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:Russia wasn't the one killing US soldiers, they just paid someone who was at war with us to do it.

Right. This is an act of aggression, because we are not at war with Russia.

Is it an act of aggression when the US gives arms to a country that Russia is at war with?
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Shofercia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:54 pm

The Sovereign Realist State wrote:So has this story been verified yet or are we still waiting?...........

Any day now............

just like the rest of the russophobic propaganda for the past 10 years........


The moronic claim that the Russians provided bounties to the Taliban to kill US soldiers will never be verified. Instead they'll trot out some claim that Russians paid Taliban for local intelligence, completely ignore that the bounty program was never proven, and that'll be enough for those who think that Orange Man is bad.


Cisairse wrote:
The Sovereign Realist State wrote:So has this story been verified yet or are we still waiting?...........

Any day now............

just like the rest of the russophobic propaganda for the past 10 years........

It's been verified for quite some time.


The bounty payments have been verified? From the NYT:

“The agency did intercept data of financial transactions that provide circumstantial support for the detainee’s account, but the agency does not have explicit evidence that the money was bounty payments.”


Oh, is there any implicit evidence? Or any evidence at all that these were bounty payments? Oh, right, evidence is tortured Taliban teens:

“After lower-level members of that network were captured, they told interrogators that the Russians were paying bounties to encourage the killings of coalition troops, including Americans.”


Wow. Yes, I can totally see it now. The Spetznaz, who made mince meat out of the Green Berets in the Deadliest Warrior episode, approach Taliban youths going "can you please kills some Murikans in a country that we're not particularly active in, because the moon is made of cheese?" It's totally believable if you're writing for the New York Times. And then, even the NYT admits:

“the government lacks direct evidence of what the criminal network leaders and GRU officials said at face-to-face meetings, so it cannot say with any greater certainty that Russia specifically offered bounties in return for killings of Western soldiers.”


How about lesser certainty? Any certainty at all? Next time I find out about a teen who's on the lower totem poll for MS-13, should I torture him until he "confesses" that the Green Berets are secretly plotting to kill Russians in Syria? If so, will that qualify me to be a New York Times writer?


Gormwood wrote:
Cisairse wrote:It's been verified for quite some time.

The U.S. intelligence community is Russophobia Central obviously.


I didn't realize that Defense Secretary Esper wasn't part of the US intelligence community. Oh wait, that's because he is. It was also commented on by Jonathan Hoffman, chief spokesperson for the Pentagon, who stated that there's no corroborating evidence. Also: https://nypost.com/2020/07/07/trumps-da ... ntroversy/

President Trump’s daily intelligence briefer made rare public remarks amid questions about why the commander-in-chief was not briefed on reports of Russia paying the Taliban to kill US troops in Afghanistan.


It's not the US Intelligence community; it's the New York Times, with their Iraqi WMDs, Jussie Smollet, and other bullshit, as usual. You can stop attempting to use sarcasm to pretend that New York Times is part of the US Intelligence Community, or even possesses a modicum of intelligence. Thanks!
Last edited by Shofercia on Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Come, learn about Russian Culture! Bring Vodka and Ushanka. Interested in Slavic Culture? Fill this out.
If we tell the radical Republicans that there's proof that Global Warming doesn't exist in Death Valley, and the radical Democrats that there's proof of Russian Collusion there, would we have a better America?

(North) Kosovo is (a de facto part of) Serbia and Crimea is (a de facto part of) Russia! DonBass is De Facto Independent! Stand with NovoRossiya!
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Red Intria
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Red Intria » Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:56 pm

Punished UMN wrote:Briefly breaking my forumlessness to ask what you guys think the Soviet reaction to the US providing SAM missiles to the Mujihadeen should have been.


Thats a tough one; I mean in hindsight, they obviously should have cut bait and bailed far earlier (or not invaded to begin with), that was a quagmire for them.

A tit-for-tat would be warranted. Funneling arms to US enemies in Latin America would be my personal response, if in charge of the USSR at the time.

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Shofercia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:57 pm

Cisairse wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:Also, since when is killing armed, uniformed soldiers in a war murder?


We are not at war with Russia.


It seems that the poster's referring the the title of the thread, and is asking under what definition this would qualify as murder, and if does, would the US stinger bounty program during the Soviet War in Afghanistan also qualify as murder? Poster's challenging the title's bombastic wording, rather than asking for a chart of everyone that the US is at war with.
"New Logic" = Spamming Moderation has nothing to do with being reported in moderation, duh!
Come, learn about Russian Culture! Bring Vodka and Ushanka. Interested in Slavic Culture? Fill this out.
If we tell the radical Republicans that there's proof that Global Warming doesn't exist in Death Valley, and the radical Democrats that there's proof of Russian Collusion there, would we have a better America?

(North) Kosovo is (a de facto part of) Serbia and Crimea is (a de facto part of) Russia! DonBass is De Facto Independent! Stand with NovoRossiya!
Tecumseh was a Real American

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Cisairse
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:01 pm

Punished UMN wrote:
Cisairse wrote:Right. This is an act of aggression, because we are not at war with Russia.

Is it an act of aggression when the US gives arms to a country that Russia is at war with?

This is a false equivalency. We're not talking about supplying arms, we're talking about ordering direct killings.

There is no real difference between Russia paying someone else to kill Americans and Russia paying their own soldiers' salaries to kill Americans.
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

Yeah, I support my troops
They wave black flags
They wear black masks

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Cisairse
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Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:02 pm

Shofercia wrote:
Cisairse wrote:
We are not at war with Russia.


It seems that the poster's referring the the title of the thread, and is asking under what definition this would qualify as murder, and if does, would the US stinger bounty program during the Soviet War in Afghanistan also qualify as murder? Poster's challenging the title's bombastic wording, rather than asking for a chart of everyone that the US is at war with.

I didn't get that from UMN's post at all.
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

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They wave black flags
They wear black masks

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Punished UMN
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Posts: 447
Founded: Jul 05, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:04 pm

Cisairse wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:Is it an act of aggression when the US gives arms to a country that Russia is at war with?

This is a false equivalency. We're not talking about supplying arms, we're talking about ordering direct killings.

There is no real difference between Russia paying someone else to kill Americans and Russia paying their own soldiers' salaries to kill Americans.

There is quite a bit of difference on the legal-political level.
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Shofercia
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Founded: Feb 22, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:08 pm

Cisairse wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
It seems that the poster's referring the the title of the thread, and is asking under what definition this would qualify as murder, and if does, would the US stinger bounty program during the Soviet War in Afghanistan also qualify as murder? Poster's challenging the title's bombastic wording, rather than asking for a chart of everyone that the US is at war with.

I didn't get that from UMN's post at all.


From the post you were responding to:

Also, since when is killing armed, uniformed soldiers in a war murder?
"New Logic" = Spamming Moderation has nothing to do with being reported in moderation, duh!
Come, learn about Russian Culture! Bring Vodka and Ushanka. Interested in Slavic Culture? Fill this out.
If we tell the radical Republicans that there's proof that Global Warming doesn't exist in Death Valley, and the radical Democrats that there's proof of Russian Collusion there, would we have a better America?

(North) Kosovo is (a de facto part of) Serbia and Crimea is (a de facto part of) Russia! DonBass is De Facto Independent! Stand with NovoRossiya!
Tecumseh was a Real American

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