Kosovo president indicted as war criminal, resists

[Slavakino]

>inb4 "Kosovo should be independent or annexed by Albania because its majority Albanian!"
Ok by that logic the Serb parts of Bosnia should be independent or annexed by Serbia same with the Croat parts

[Vassenor]

Environmental distribution of uranium and other trace elements at selected Kosovo sites



Examination of the health status of populations from depleted-uranium-contaminated regions



So, what is the evidence that DU use has caused contamination?

Never said contamination. I said that DU was used during the bombings

And what makes using DU munitions more of a war crime than non-DU munitions? Why did you start going on about dirty bombs, weapons which are designed to cause radioactive contamination as a form of area denial, and comparing them to dumping nuclear waste, an act considered to cause contamination of the surrounding area?

[Slavakino]

Never said contamination. I said that DU was used during the bombings

And what makes using DU munitions more of a war crime than non-DU munitions? Why did you start going on about dirty bombs, weapons which are designed to cause radioactive contamination as a form of area denial?

I was using it as a blanket term which I apologise for, but still, DU, cancer, war crimes. I was referring to Nuclear Waste because DU literally is nuclear waste

[Vassenor]

And what makes using DU munitions more of a war crime than non-DU munitions? Why did you start going on about dirty bombs, weapons which are designed to cause radioactive contamination as a form of area denial?

I was using it as a blanket term which I apologise for, but still, DU, cancer, war crimes. I was referring to Nuclear Waste because DU literally is nuclear waste

So you're not going to provide evidence that DU use has had actual health implications? Especially in response to the paper I cited showing no evidence of such?

[Slavakino]

I was using it as a blanket term which I apologise for, but still, DU, cancer, war crimes. I was referring to Nuclear Waste because DU literally is nuclear waste

So you're not going to provide evidence that DU use has had actual health implications? Especially in response to the paper I cited showing no evidence of such?

Well firstly those sources seem to be a bit dated, since 2004. Secondly, DU still has a half-life and will decay. Not to mention DU may still reside in cities if they have not been picked up. Not to mention contamination of soil. No point continuing this stupid argument as you are never going to stop, its well known YOU Vass isn't going to stop with retarded arguments and prolonging them

[Vassenor]

So you're not going to provide evidence that DU use has had actual health implications? Especially in response to the paper I cited showing no evidence of such?

Well firstly those sources seem to be a bit dated, since 2004. Secondly, DU still has a half-life and will decay. Not to mention DU may still reside in cities if they have not been picked up. Not to mention contamination of soil. No point continuing this stupid argument as you are never going to stop, its well known YOU Vass isn't going to stop with retarded arguments and prolonging them

It's retarded to base an argument on actual research and evidence? Huh.

Especially since I already covered soil contamination or the lack thereof several times.

[Thermodolia]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53201476

Surprise surprise, after more than 20 years turns out that the KLA weren't exactly a band of poor victims.
Of course, the very same country/breakaway province that once whined about Serbia non giving up its politicians to the Hague court now whines about the evil pro-Serbian Hague court that wants to try its president for war crimes, boo hoo.

Can one be more hypocritical? Can we just split up Kosovo in a Serbian part, an Albanian part, and be done with this useless "country" whose only purpose is hosting criminals?

Why aren't you providing a more up-to-date source?

Kosovo President Hashim Thaci will go to The Hague on Monday to be interviewed by international war crimes prosecutors.

Thaci was a top commander of the Kosovo Liberation Army, which fought a guerrilla war for independence from Serbia in the late 1990s. He announced his appearance on his Facebook page on Wednesday.

A special international court has indicted Thaci and other former fighters for alleged war crimes by the KLA, including murder, kidnapping and torture. Thaci has denied the charges.

“While my compatriots as well as me will face international justice with dignity and integrity, I call upon you to stand united in dealing with the challenges that our country is facing,” he said on Facebook.

A pretrial judge in the Kosovo Specialist Chambers has yet to decide whether to put Thaci and the others on trial or throw out the case.

Thaci has told Kosovars that if he is tried, he will “will immediately resign as your president and face the accusations.”

https://www.voanews.com/europe/war-crimes-prosecutors-interview-kosovo-presidentWar%20Crimes%20Prosecutors%20to%20Interview%20Kosovo%20President

And then you can explain where the hypocricy is...

Oh so it looks like the OP is manipulating the facts. I wonder why?

[Gravlen]

Why aren't you providing a more up-to-date source?

Kosovo President Hashim Thaci will go to The Hague on Monday to be interviewed by international war crimes prosecutors.

Thaci was a top commander of the Kosovo Liberation Army, which fought a guerrilla war for independence from Serbia in the late 1990s. He announced his appearance on his Facebook page on Wednesday.

A special international court has indicted Thaci and other former fighters for alleged war crimes by the KLA, including murder, kidnapping and torture. Thaci has denied the charges.

“While my compatriots as well as me will face international justice with dignity and integrity, I call upon you to stand united in dealing with the challenges that our country is facing,” he said on Facebook.

A pretrial judge in the Kosovo Specialist Chambers has yet to decide whether to put Thaci and the others on trial or throw out the case.

Thaci has told Kosovars that if he is tried, he will “will immediately resign as your president and face the accusations.”

https://www.voanews.com/europe/war-crimes-prosecutors-interview-kosovo-presidentWar%20Crimes%20Prosecutors%20to%20Interview%20Kosovo%20President

And then you can explain where the hypocricy is...

Oh so it looks like the OP is manipulating the facts. I wonder why?

Yeah, who can say? Not the OP, who seems to not have returned to the thread.

Regardless, here's a little update:

Kosovo President Hashim Thaci said on Thursday evening after that the Kosovo Specialist Prosecutor’s Office, which questioned him for four days in a row this week, should conclude that he is innocent.

“I am very pleased that for four days I had the opportunity to give evidence on all issues related to my activity during the war period, and my efforts for peace, stability, development and progress,” Thaci, who was a Kosovo Liberation Army leader during the 1998-99 war, told media.'

Thaci said he gave the Hague prosecutors, who are probing wartime and post-war crimes in Kosovo, “information about my role, my responsibilities during the war”.

He said that “now it is up to the prosecutor and the judge to evaluate my testimonies impartially”.

“If they do it professionally, they can easily conclude that I have not committed any war crimes,” he added.

The Specialist Prosecutor’s Office announced last month that it has prepared an indictment charging Thaci, as well as senior Kosovo politician Kadri Veseli and other former KLA fighters, with war crimes and crimes against humanity. The indictment still needs to be approved by a judge.

[...]

If the indictment is confirmed, Thaci faces trial at the Kosovo Specialist Chambers in The Hague. He has denied any wrongdoing and has said he will step down as president if he is put on trial.

I'm still waiting to hear more about that hypocricy.

[Thermodolia]

Oh so it looks like the OP is manipulating the facts. I wonder why?

Yeah, who can say? Not the OP, who seems to not have returned to the thread.

Regardless, here's a little update:

Kosovo President Hashim Thaci said on Thursday evening after that the Kosovo Specialist Prosecutor’s Office, which questioned him for four days in a row this week, should conclude that he is innocent.

“I am very pleased that for four days I had the opportunity to give evidence on all issues related to my activity during the war period, and my efforts for peace, stability, development and progress,” Thaci, who was a Kosovo Liberation Army leader during the 1998-99 war, told media.'

Thaci said he gave the Hague prosecutors, who are probing wartime and post-war crimes in Kosovo, “information about my role, my responsibilities during the war”.

He said that “now it is up to the prosecutor and the judge to evaluate my testimonies impartially”.

“If they do it professionally, they can easily conclude that I have not committed any war crimes,” he added.

The Specialist Prosecutor’s Office announced last month that it has prepared an indictment charging Thaci, as well as senior Kosovo politician Kadri Veseli and other former KLA fighters, with war crimes and crimes against humanity. The indictment still needs to be approved by a judge.

[...]

If the indictment is confirmed, Thaci faces trial at the Kosovo Specialist Chambers in The Hague. He has denied any wrongdoing and has said he will step down as president if he is put on trial.

I'm still waiting to hear more about that hypocricy.

Oh so the facts say that this guy is innocent strange how that happened

[Gravlen]

Yeah, who can say? Not the OP, who seems to not have returned to the thread.

Regardless, here's a little update:

Kosovo President Hashim Thaci said on Thursday evening after that the Kosovo Specialist Prosecutor’s Office, which questioned him for four days in a row this week, should conclude that he is innocent.

“I am very pleased that for four days I had the opportunity to give evidence on all issues related to my activity during the war period, and my efforts for peace, stability, development and progress,” Thaci, who was a Kosovo Liberation Army leader during the 1998-99 war, told media.'

Thaci said he gave the Hague prosecutors, who are probing wartime and post-war crimes in Kosovo, “information about my role, my responsibilities during the war”.

He said that “now it is up to the prosecutor and the judge to evaluate my testimonies impartially”.

“If they do it professionally, they can easily conclude that I have not committed any war crimes,” he added.

The Specialist Prosecutor’s Office announced last month that it has prepared an indictment charging Thaci, as well as senior Kosovo politician Kadri Veseli and other former KLA fighters, with war crimes and crimes against humanity. The indictment still needs to be approved by a judge.

[...]

If the indictment is confirmed, Thaci faces trial at the Kosovo Specialist Chambers in The Hague. He has denied any wrongdoing and has said he will step down as president if he is put on trial.

I'm still waiting to hear more about that hypocricy.

Oh so the facts say that this guy is innocent strange how that happened

Well to be fair, he says he is innocent. There's still facts to sort out before we can conclude for sure.

But the OP has hastily concluded that he isn't innocent (despite no indictment and, importantly, no trial and no judgement), and that he represents the pinnacle of hypocricy for whining about the court wanting to interview him (despite him submitting to their request, being interviewed for four days, and promising to step down if a judge does move to indict him).

So yeah, the title of the thread is still completely wrong, something the OP knew or should have known when he made it.

[Gormwood]

I was using it as a blanket term which I apologise for, but still, DU, cancer, war crimes. I was referring to Nuclear Waste because DU literally is nuclear waste

So you're not going to provide evidence that DU use has had actual health implications? Especially in response to the paper I cited showing no evidence of such?

DU is heavy metal. That alone is toxic even without radiation.

[Vivolkha]

So you're not going to provide evidence that DU use has had actual health implications? Especially in response to the paper I cited showing no evidence of such?

DU is heavy metal. That alone is toxic even without radiation.

Natural uranium is actually more dangerous due to heavy metal poisoning than because of radioactivity.

[Vassenor]

So you're not going to provide evidence that DU use has had actual health implications? Especially in response to the paper I cited showing no evidence of such?

DU is heavy metal. That alone is toxic even without radiation.

OK, but that still doesn't overrule the fact there's been no evidence of health impacts as is being claimed.

[Gormwood]

DU is heavy metal. That alone is toxic even without radiation.

OK, but that still doesn't overrule the fact there's been no evidence of health impacts as is being claimed.

Seriously? DU has been hypothesized as the likely cause of Gulf War Syndrome.

[Vassenor]

OK, but that still doesn't overrule the fact there's been no evidence of health impacts as is being claimed.

Seriously? DU has been hypothesized as the likely cause of Gulf War Syndrome.

OK I think we're drifting here. The claim was that the use of DU munitions in Kosovo specifically is a war crime because of the impact on the local environment and on the civilian population. But the research on the matter does not bear either of these claims out.

[Punished UMN]

Seriously? DU has been hypothesized as the likely cause of Gulf War Syndrome.

OK I think we're drifting here. The claim was that the use of DU munitions in Kosovo specifically is a war crime because of the impact on the local environment and on the civilian population. But the research on the matter does not bear either of these claims out.

That's like saying the suspected use of chemical weapons on coalition troops in the Gulf War doesn't constitute a war crime because the coalition troops were in in NBC gear and were unaffected.

[Gormwood]

Seriously? DU has been hypothesized as the likely cause of Gulf War Syndrome.

OK I think we're drifting here. The claim was that the use of DU munitions in Kosovo specifically is a war crime because of the impact on the local environment and on the civilian population. But the research on the matter does not bear either of these claims out.

It's not a war crime because it's not a purpose made chemical weapon, otherwise there'd be Gulf War tribunals. But it will likely have long term health effects on the population. Don't be surprised if repeats of GWS start getting reported.

[Vassenor]

OK I think we're drifting here. The claim was that the use of DU munitions in Kosovo specifically is a war crime because of the impact on the local environment and on the civilian population. But the research on the matter does not bear either of these claims out.

It's not a war crime because it's not a purpose made chemical weapon, otherwise there'd be Gulf War tribunals. But it will likely have long term health effects on the population. Don't be surprised if repeats of GWS start getting reported.

The Gulf War also involved a much greater quantity of DU munitions use - somewhere on the order of 315-350 tons compared to 15 in Kosovo.

[Gravlen]

OK I think we're drifting here. The claim was that the use of DU munitions in Kosovo specifically is a war crime because of the impact on the local environment and on the civilian population. But the research on the matter does not bear either of these claims out.

It's not a war crime because it's not a purpose made chemical weapon, otherwise there'd be Gulf War tribunals. But it will likely have long term health effects on the population. Don't be surprised if repeats of GWS start getting reported.

Well, let's not be too optimistic. The US would not agree to such tribunals (whether for actions during the Gulf War or during the Kosovo war), so even if chemical weapons had been used directly nobody would have been held accountable.

[Gormwood]

It's not a war crime because it's not a purpose made chemical weapon, otherwise there'd be Gulf War tribunals. But it will likely have long term health effects on the population. Don't be surprised if repeats of GWS start getting reported.

Well, let's not be too optimistic. The US would not agree to such tribunals (whether for actions during the Gulf War or during the Kosovo war), so even if chemical weapons had been used directly nobody would have been held accountable.

The U.S. would refuse tribunals even if live videos of Holocaust 2: Electric Boogaloo were spread on social media. But if chemicals weapons were used there would be countries trying to hold tribunals over them.

[Shofercia]

Seriously? DU has been hypothesized as the likely cause of Gulf War Syndrome.

OK I think we're drifting here. The claim was that the use of DU munitions in Kosovo specifically is a war crime because of the impact on the local environment and on the civilian population. But the research on the matter does not bear either of these claims out.

Vass, do you think that depleted uranium is a sentient entity that goes "oh damn, the Balkans, I better behave, but in the Persian Gulf I'm going to be like a girl gone wild, yeehaw" - is that your actual impression of depleted uranium? Also, the bombing of Belgrade, even the bombing without depleted uranium, is a war crime, because you're not supposed to be bombing civilian targets.

Oh so the facts say that this guy is innocent strange how that happened

Well to be fair, he says he is innocent. There's still facts to sort out before we can conclude for sure.

But the OP has hastily concluded that he isn't innocent (despite no indictment and, importantly, no trial and no judgement), and that he represents the pinnacle of hypocricy for whining about the court wanting to interview him (despite him submitting to their request, being interviewed for four days, and promising to step down if a judge does move to indict him).

So yeah, the title of the thread is still completely wrong, something the OP knew or should have known when he made it.

There's still a World of difference between trying someone for war crimes right after they occurred, and trying them for war crimes one or two decades later. In that time a strongman thug can make people disappear, evidence disappear, etc. Guilty or not, it comes too late to make up for the ethnic cleansing of tens of thousands of Serbs from Kosovo, a massive war crime for which no one has yet been punished.

1991: 194,190 Serbs in Kosovo
2011: 25,532 Serbs in Kosovo

You're actually calling out someone who's own mother suffered from the bombing as if they're bullshitting? What the actual fuck? Is this a demonstration of how to show sympathy for the cause of the underdog? Noted!

One might criticise my dad for fighting for the Serbs in Bosnia but my dad fought to protect Serbia and Montenegro at the time. Not because of race or religion. My dad went as far as to help civilians no matter the race (although my dad does refer to Bosnians and Albanians as "The n*ggers of Europe" but mainly as a joking manner). He went as far as to threaten mutiny and murder of his group if they didn't let go of an 11-year-old Bosnian boy

TBQH, "nigger" was widely used as an insult against everyone fighting during the Balkan Wars. So, while I discourage the use of said word under normal circumstances, I can totally understand its use during something as devastating and bloody as the Balkan Wars. If that's the worst thing he did amidst that hellhole, he's a genuine hero.

[Novus America]

"We're going to look into whether this happened" is not evidence a thing happened in and of itself.

It is well known during the war that NATO did use DU munitions. Using DU in mass amounts is like dumping nuclear waste in a city, oh wait that's literally what happened. You cannot deny the war crimes that NATO and the USA have brought upon the Serbs.

Umm, from your own source:
“Serbian MPs are expected to vote on Friday to establish a parliamentary commission to determine whether NATO’s use of depleted uranium ammunition in 1999 has increased the number of cancer sufferers – despite scepticism from medical experts.

“Every year we use phosphate fertilisers with more uranium than what was dropped in 1999 [by NATO],” said epidemiologist Zoran Radovanovic, chairman of the ethics committee of the Serbian Medical Association.“

Even Serbian medical experts doubt it. We need real scientific evidence.
Use of DU is not inherently a war crime.

[Novus America]

OK, but that still doesn't overrule the fact there's been no evidence of health impacts as is being claimed.

Seriously? DU has been hypothesized as the likely cause of Gulf War Syndrome.

Hypothesis is not proof, and actually the evidence instead suggests Pyridostigmine Bromide.
“The Research Advisory Committee on Gulf War Veterans' Illnesses (RAC), a VA federal advisory committee mandated by Congress in legislation enacted in 1998,[21][22] found that pre-2005 studies suggested the veterans' illnesses are neurological and apparently are linked to exposure to neurotoxins, such as the nerve gas sarin, the anti-nerve gas drug pyridostigmine bromide, and pesticides that affect the nervous system. The RAC concluded in 2004 that, "research studies conducted since the war have consistently indicated that psychiatric illness, combat experience or other deployment-related stressors do not explain Gulf War veterans illnesses in the large majority of ill veterans."[23]

The RAC concluded[11] that "exposure to pesticides and/or to PB [pyridostigmine bromide nerve agent protective pills] are causally associated with GWI and the neurological dysfunction in GW veterans. Exposure to sarin and cyclosarin and to oil well fire emissions are also associated with neurologically based health effects, though their contribution to development of the disorder known as GWI is less clear.”

Gulf War Syndrome was likely caused by Pyridostigmine Bromide.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War_syndrome

[Novus America]

>inb4 "Kosovo should be independent or annexed by Albania because its majority Albanian!"
Ok by that logic the Serb parts of Bosnia should be independent or annexed by Serbia same with the Croat parts

If the people of Bosnia want that than very possibly. What the people want matter, from a practical not merely ethical standpoint. The simple fact is Kosovo is gone from Serbia, it (with the exception of maybe the 4 municipalities of North Kosovo) are not coming back to Serbia, Serbia cannot realistically take it, and the Serbian leadership actually know this, but has to throw some lies out to keep the “Kosovo is Serbia” types happy.

It is over and done in terms of Kosovo being gone, although there are still many issues and details to work out, Kosovo is not going to all be part of Serbia again.

[Novus America]

It's not a war crime because it's not a purpose made chemical weapon, otherwise there'd be Gulf War tribunals. But it will likely have long term health effects on the population. Don't be surprised if repeats of GWS start getting reported.

The Gulf War also involved a much greater quantity of DU munitions use - somewhere on the order of 315-350 tons compared to 15 in Kosovo.

Actually GWS was not probably not caused by depleted uranium but probably by a chemical called Pyridostigmine Bromide, which was widely used in the Gulf War as a countermeasure against nerve gas. It is possible other chemical exposures such as nerve gas and burning oil wells contributed by the link there is less proven, GWS perfectly aligns with the symptoms of Pyridostigmine Bromide exposure.

This explains why GWS did not reappear in other conflicts seeing DU use, (if it was going to appear in Kosovo and Serbia it would have already, that was over twenty years ago and it showed up mostly about 5 to 10 years later).