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Kosovo president indicted as war criminal, resists

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New Rogernomics
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Postby New Rogernomics » Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:36 am

Shofercia wrote:Source for all this rebuilding? The safest way for everyone, if we're talking about safety and nothing else, would be to detach North Kosovo from Kosovo and give it to Serbia. As for KFOR being a force for good, that's highly debatable.
Realistically, Kosovo was created to forestall a decision on who should own what. A good argument could be made that had Kosovo not been made a UN administered area, the war would still be going on today, and Kosovo would be just a pile of rubble. That said, negotiations have gone nowhere, and behind the scenes no one wants to resolve the dispute - as all but a few would walk away worse off. Serbia would the worst off, and their uber nationalists would be pissed enough to topple their government.
Last edited by New Rogernomics on Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana
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Postby Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana » Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:21 am

Enesia wrote:As to the damaged Orthodox monasteries and grave stones most of the churches have since been rebuilt by the Government of Kosovo in cooperation with the Serbian Orthodox Church and the UN mission in Kosovo.

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Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana
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Postby Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana » Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:25 am

Enesia wrote:I can see that this is a very sensitive issue for both sides of the argument, and i agree that the NATO-led international force had its ups and downs but on general it was a force for good. Le us not forget that more than 200 NATO soldiers have lost their lives as part of KFOR. KFOR is gradually transferring responsibilities to the Kosovo Police and other local authorities. Currently, 28 states contribute to the KFOR, with a combined strength of more than 3,500 military and civilian personnel. The most important thing for both the Serbs and Albanians is to evade and prevent any kind of unrest(like the one that happened in 2004) and focus on economic growth, tackling corruption and moving ever closer to EU membership.

The KFOR literally committed ethnic cleansing, how can you still try to defend it?
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Postby Vassenor » Fri Jul 24, 2020 7:26 am

Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:
Enesia wrote:I can see that this is a very sensitive issue for both sides of the argument, and i agree that the NATO-led international force had its ups and downs but on general it was a force for good. Le us not forget that more than 200 NATO soldiers have lost their lives as part of KFOR. KFOR is gradually transferring responsibilities to the Kosovo Police and other local authorities. Currently, 28 states contribute to the KFOR, with a combined strength of more than 3,500 military and civilian personnel. The most important thing for both the Serbs and Albanians is to evade and prevent any kind of unrest(like the one that happened in 2004) and focus on economic growth, tackling corruption and moving ever closer to EU membership.

The KFOR literally committed ethnic cleansing, how can you still try to defend it?


Let's see the evidence.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:14 am

Panslavicland wrote:
Slavakino wrote:

By that logic the Serbian parts of Bosnia should be handed back to Serbia.


Well, they should be. But Kosovo is Serbia too, and Hashim Thaci should be tried and convicted in Belgrade.


Neither are Serbia currently. Serbia controls neither. Serbia does not even claim the Serbian parts of Bosnia and the government is resigned to the loss of Kosovo. It is trying to negotiate what it can get in exchange for potentially recognizing Kosovo. It has offered to potentially recognize Kosovo if it gets enough in return even. Which is an acknowledgment it does not control it and is not getting it back.

Now maybe the Serbian parts of Bosnia might want to join Serbia, and I would not be against that if that is what the people want (although it makes some pretty awkward borders) but Serbia is not getting most of Kosovo and even the Serbian Government knows it.

We went over this. Given the political polarization and unrest, corruption and economic problems, collapsing population amongst other things, Serbia is in no place or shape to try to invade and rule nearly 2 million people who would fight against it.
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Postby Slavakino » Fri Jul 24, 2020 8:26 am

Novus America wrote:
Panslavicland wrote:
Well, they should be. But Kosovo is Serbia too, and Hashim Thaci should be tried and convicted in Belgrade.


Neither are Serbia currently. Serbia controls neither. Serbia disc not even claim the Serbian parts of Bosnia and the government is resigned to the loss of Kosovo. It is trying to negotiate what it can get in exchange for potentially recognizing Kosovo. It has offered to potential recognize Kosovo if it gets enough in return even. Which is an acknowledgment it does not control it and is not getting it back.

Now maybe the Serbian parts of Bosnia might want to join Serbia, and I would not be against that if that is what the people want (although it makes some pretty awkward borders) but Serbia is not getting most of Kosovo and even the Serbian Government knows it.

We went over this. Given the political polarization and unrest, corruption and economic problems, collapsing population amongst other things, Serbia is in no place or shape to try to invade and rule nearly 2 million people who would fight against it.

Oh they wont. The Radicals might try that, but they are retarded so what do they know
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Shofercia
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Postby Shofercia » Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:16 am

New Rogernomics wrote:
Shofercia wrote:Source for all this rebuilding? The safest way for everyone, if we're talking about safety and nothing else, would be to detach North Kosovo from Kosovo and give it to Serbia. As for KFOR being a force for good, that's highly debatable.
Realistically, Kosovo was created to forestall a decision on who should own what. A good argument could be made that had Kosovo not been made a UN administered area, the war would still be going on today, and Kosovo would be just a pile of rubble. That said, negotiations have gone nowhere, and behind the scenes no one wants to resolve the dispute - as all but a few would walk away worse off. Serbia would the worst off, and their uber nationalists would be pissed enough to topple their government.


Perhaps, perhaps not. There were quite a few moderate Albanians who were silenced by Thaci's thugs, and Serb Armed Forces in the region didn't have the firepower to go after all Albanians, and knew it, so they'd have no choice but to go after Thaci's thugs. If that group was eliminated, the moderate Albanians could've triumphed, and you'd have a process similar to what happened with Serbia and Montenegro, no illegal organ harvesting, and no ethnic cleansing. You are correct though, if the Serb Government tries anything at this point, it would be toppled, and Russians would prevent NATO from intervening in Serbia's internal politics.


Vassenor wrote:
Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:The KFOR literally committed ethnic cleansing, how can you still try to defend it?


Let's see the evidence.


1991: 194,190 Serbs in Kosovo
2011: 25,532 Serbs in Kosovo

Is Vass' argument that all 168,658 Serbs magically teleport back to Belgrade, like the Tomorrow People? KFOR didn't commit ethnic cleansing, but their actions certainly enabled Thaci's ethnic cleansing.


Novus America wrote:
Panslavicland wrote:
Well, they should be. But Kosovo is Serbia too, and Hashim Thaci should be tried and convicted in Belgrade.


Neither are Serbia currently. Serbia controls neither. Serbia does not even claim the Serbian parts of Bosnia and the government is resigned to the loss of Kosovo. It is trying to negotiate what it can get in exchange for potentially recognizing Kosovo. It has offered to potentially recognize Kosovo if it gets enough in return even. Which is an acknowledgment it does not control it and is not getting it back.

Now maybe the Serbian parts of Bosnia might want to join Serbia, and I would not be against that if that is what the people want (although it makes some pretty awkward borders) but Serbia is not getting most of Kosovo and even the Serbian Government knows it.

We went over this. Given the political polarization and unrest, corruption and economic problems, collapsing population amongst other things, Serbia is in no place or shape to try to invade and rule nearly 2 million people who would fight against it.


You keep on saying that the Government is resigned to the loss of Kosovo, while providing token evidence, at best, of that. It didn't offer anything. When I asked you to provide a source of what Serb Government offered, and to quote it, you failed. And we've been over this, just because someone's not invading a region, doesn't mean that they're recognizing said region. The flaw in your argument is that you read some articles, imagined that Serbia's Government is recognizing Kosovo, used the "but they're not invading it" as an excuse rather than a reason, and decided to repeat that ad nauseum.

What if, just purely hypothetically speaking, Serbia's plan isn't to recognize or invade Kosovo, but rather to wait until a society being built by Thaci's thugs annoys the West enough to lose aid, loses said aid, and collapses? Then Serbia can march right in. Here's an actual source, with an actual quote: https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-kosov ... KKBN21033O

The United States is halting around $50 million (£40.5 million) in economic aid for Kosovo due to Kosovo’s refusal to lift tariffs on goods produced in Serbia, a U.S. government agency said on Friday. Kosovo introduced the tariffs in November 2018 after Serbia blocked the breakaway former province’s membership of international organisations, including Interpol and UNESCO. In response, Belgrade broke off talks with Pristina, saying it would continue only once the tariffs were removed.


I can't imagine the US doing something like that even 10 years ago. Today? Perfectly normal. The US is overextended, the EU is dealing with an immigration crisis created partially by Obama's support of the Arab Spring, so Serbia's position is like Hornitos: the longer you wait, the better it gets. Current Serb Government isn't losing support because they're stalling on Kosovo, they're losing support because they've, arguably, had the worst or second worst COVID-19 response of any Slavic country.
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Postby -Astoria- » Sun Jul 26, 2020 1:47 am

Panslavicland wrote:By that logic the Serbian parts of Bosnia should be handed back to Serbia.
Isn't it already more or less detached from the rest of it (see Srpska)?

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Postby Shofercia » Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:50 am

-Astoria- wrote:
Panslavicland wrote:By that logic the Serbian parts of Bosnia should be handed back to Serbia.
Isn't it already more or less detached from the rest of it (see Srpska)?


It is, but de jure it's part of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
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Postby Thermodolia » Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:53 am

Shofercia wrote:
-Astoria- wrote:Isn't it already more or less detached from the rest of it (see Srpska)?


It is, but de jure it's part of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Tbh Srpska should be its own nation or part of Serbia. No sense in keeping peacekeepers in place permanently
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Postby Shofercia » Sun Jul 26, 2020 11:01 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
It is, but de jure it's part of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Tbh Srpska should be its own nation or part of Serbia. No sense in keeping peacekeepers in place permanently


I think you'd still have to, considering the borders:

Image

But yeah, if Kosovo gets "muh independence" why not Republika Srpska? Same terms, so the equivalent of North Kosovo to Serbia, (or in this case to Bosnia, if said equivalent's there,) protection of all major religious and cultural sites, and compensation for victims on both sides, followed by a Referendum.

Problem is that in both cases, you might have the overall national population that would revile the result, which will create more enmity. Clinton should've never gone on his crazy Balkan Adventure. That's why I'm a fan of waiting it out.
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Postby Panslavicland » Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:03 am

-Astoria- wrote:
Panslavicland wrote:By that logic the Serbian parts of Bosnia should be handed back to Serbia.
Isn't it already more or less detached from the rest of it (see Srpska)?


Yes, but Srpska only represents a part of the territory of Bosnia that should rightfully be part of Serbia. I think formally uniting Srpska with the rest of Serbia would be a good start, but it shouldn't be considered the endpoint for restoring Serbia's borders.

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Postby Chan Island » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:28 am

Panslavicland wrote:
-Astoria- wrote:Isn't it already more or less detached from the rest of it (see Srpska)?


Yes, but Srpska only represents a part of the territory of Bosnia that should rightfully be part of Serbia. I think formally uniting Srpska with the rest of Serbia would be a good start, but it shouldn't be considered the endpoint for restoring Serbia's borders.


What would you consider the endpoint then?
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Postby Novus America » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:50 am

Chan Island wrote:
Panslavicland wrote:
Yes, but Srpska only represents a part of the territory of Bosnia that should rightfully be part of Serbia. I think formally uniting Srpska with the rest of Serbia would be a good start, but it shouldn't be considered the endpoint for restoring Serbia's borders.


What would you consider the endpoint then?


Are we back to “Greater Serbia” again? I hoped that mostly died outside a few ultranats (along with a lot of other people) in the 90s.
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Postby Shofercia » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:30 am

Novus America wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
What would you consider the endpoint then?


Are we back to “Greater Serbia” again? I hoped that mostly died outside a few ultranats (along with a lot of other people) in the 90s.


It's quite fascinating how when Great Powers demand more than they expect to get, in order to have room for negotiation, it's considered "clever diplomacy" but when normal countries do it, it's considered ultranationalism. No, we're not going back to Greater Serbia.
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Postby Vapormancer » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:39 am

Shofercia wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Tbh Srpska should be its own nation or part of Serbia. No sense in keeping peacekeepers in place permanently


I think you'd still have to, considering the borders:

Image

But yeah, if Kosovo gets "muh independence" why not Republika Srpska? Same terms, so the equivalent of North Kosovo to Serbia, (or in this case to Bosnia, if said equivalent's there,) protection of all major religious and cultural sites, and compensation for victims on both sides, followed by a Referendum.

Problem is that in both cases, you might have the overall national population that would revile the result, which will create more enmity. Clinton should've never gone on his crazy Balkan Adventure. That's why I'm a fan of waiting it out.


Population exchange would have solved that border gore and the ethnic disputes very easily. Too bad the Balkan countries weren't clever enough to sort out a last peace. C'est le guerre.

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Postby Shofercia » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:42 am

Vapormancer wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
I think you'd still have to, considering the borders:

Image

But yeah, if Kosovo gets "muh independence" why not Republika Srpska? Same terms, so the equivalent of North Kosovo to Serbia, (or in this case to Bosnia, if said equivalent's there,) protection of all major religious and cultural sites, and compensation for victims on both sides, followed by a Referendum.

Problem is that in both cases, you might have the overall national population that would revile the result, which will create more enmity. Clinton should've never gone on his crazy Balkan Adventure. That's why I'm a fan of waiting it out.


Population exchange would have solved that border gore and the ethnic disputes very easily. Too bad the Balkan countries weren't clever enough to sort out a last peace. C'est le guerre.


Yep, but you need money to achieve that, and no one was willing to give loans to Yugoslavia that were necessary to accomplish the task. Moving's a complicated process, especially when you're moving millions of people.
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Postby Salus Maior » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:44 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
It is, but de jure it's part of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Tbh Srpska should be its own nation or part of Serbia. No sense in keeping peacekeepers in place permanently


True, but it'd be pretty border-gore-y.
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Postby Novus America » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:51 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Tbh Srpska should be its own nation or part of Serbia. No sense in keeping peacekeepers in place permanently


True, but it'd be pretty border-gore-y.


If the people of Srpska want to join Serbia then that is their right to want, but as you point out it makes for some really ugly and awkward borders.
And there is the issue of Brčko, which is controlled by the federal government of Bosnia, what happens to it? It is not Serb majority, but it spilts Srpska, while I guess some sort of freedom of movement can be worked out but it is not going to be easy.

I am not against the idea on principle if that is what people want BUT it definitely could be messy.
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Postby Vapormancer » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:59 am

Shofercia wrote:
Vapormancer wrote:
Population exchange would have solved that border gore and the ethnic disputes very easily. Too bad the Balkan countries weren't clever enough to sort out a last peace. C'est le guerre.


Yep, but you need money to achieve that, and no one was willing to give loans to Yugoslavia that were necessary to accomplish the task. Moving's a complicated process, especially when you're moving millions of people.


Poorer countries with more ethnic hatred managed to do the same thing plenty of times. Yes it would have been hard but it isn't like that is an unheard of thing in Europe. It would have been the best way to prevent another out break of fighting because X ethnic enclave didn't want to live near Y. You wouldn't need to worry about far flung outposts being strangled by the enemy because you have a town surrounded by a hostile ethnic map.

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Postby Christian Confederation » Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:05 pm

Why don't we just let the region fix the Fluster Cluck of made up borders NATO made after the invasion? We use UN Peacekeepers to insure there's no Genocide or anything like that and let the region fix the borders (Ethnically, Religiously, Linguistically, ETC)

It's like Africa. The Balkans are violent because the world powers muddled with stuff and made artificial borders with no thought or regard of the local divisions.
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Postby Salus Maior » Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:08 pm

Novus America wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
True, but it'd be pretty border-gore-y.


If the people of Srpska want to join Serbia then that is their right to want, but as you point out it makes for some really ugly and awkward borders.
And there is the issue of Brčko, which is controlled by the federal government of Bosnia, what happens to it? It is not Serb majority, but it spilts Srpska, while I guess some sort of freedom of movement can be worked out but it is not going to be easy.

I am not against the idea on principle if that is what people want BUT it definitely could be messy.


All I want in life is aesthetic borders, man.
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Federal Republic Of America And The Cari
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 112
Founded: Apr 23, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Federal Republic Of America And The Cari » Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:11 pm

Major-Tom wrote:Can we stop with this Kosovo is Serbia drivel? They voted overwhelmingly to not be Serbia, most of it's inhabitants aren't Serbs, etc etc. And to those who say "Well, right then, let's just partition it!"

Are you fucking kidding? What happened, pray tell, the last time we tried to split the Balkan states into entities where it's inhabitants hated one another? Did that go well? I can't seem to recall...

Edit: I'm sure the charges against the Kosovoan President are legitimate, just as they've been legitimate for every single fucking Balkan leader that ever served during the armed conflicts of the 1990s. That alone doesn't undermine Kosovo's rightful sovereignty and right to remain independent from Serbia.

Good point
https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr8jsp
.quote,https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=31417&p=1258384#p1258384
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Christian Confederation
Minister
 
Posts: 2022
Founded: Dec 12, 2018
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Christian Confederation » Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:21 pm

Major-Tom wrote: That alone doesn't undermine Kosovo's rightful sovereignty and right to remain independent from Serbia.

That Argument sounds familiar. "Texas's Rightful Sovereignty and right to remain Independent from America" sounds an awful lot like the same argument Confederate sympathizers use to justify their crackpot ideas.
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