Is CANZUK viable?

[Novus America]

Well Canada/EU trade is more than three times Canada/UK trade, so clearly CETA is more important to Canada.

However, is there some clause in CETA saying that Canada can't make deals with any other country? That would be weird.

I don't think, but CETA still is in provisional validity because not every EU country has ratufied it -that's because many countries are still trying to get some extra protection for their interests, as many European citizens are afraid of the potential competition from Canada.
If you'd add to this the possibility for Britain to circumvene the upcoming tariffs between UK and EU by going through Canada, that would give a push for EU members to call for a further revision, or restriction or even dissolution of CETA.

Plus NAFTA/USMCA is far more important to Canada than the CETA or UK.
That has to be taken in to account as well. The US is far closer economically and more important than the UK for Canada.

[Novus America]

It would have an economic power and population comparable to Japan, although still significant, hardly a super power.

Actually a little more (GDP) than Japan, which would actually make it the 4th largest.

So, let's just do CANZUK without Australia.

If Australia did consent to free immigration just with other CANZUK members, how would it's mean immigration policy towards others matter?

A little larger is comparable. Comparable does not require exact equality.
Sure it would be a major economy but still far short of the two superpowers.

And India would surpass it soon enough.

[Kazakah]

I don't think, but CETA still is in provisional validity because not every EU country has ratufied it -that's because many countries are still trying to get some extra protection for their interests, as many European citizens are afraid of the potential competition from Canada.
If you'd add to this the possibility for Britain to circumvene the upcoming tariffs between UK and EU by going through Canada, that would give a push for EU members to call for a further revision, or restriction or even dissolution of CETA.

Plus NAFTA/USMCA is far more important to Canada than the CETA or UK.
That has to be taken in to account as well. The US is far closer economically and more important than the UK for Canada.

This does have to be kept in mind. Canada trades much more with the US than with any other country, though I still wish we would stop depending on China so much

[Bienenhalde]

Well, that would be all the more reason for the UK to adopt some kind of free trade agreement with the EU, wouldn't it?

Her Majesty's Government has been quite adamant they don't want a free trade agreement with the EU because that would entail either EEA/EFTA membership (which means EU directives and ECJ rulings apply) or freedom of movement between Britain and the EU at the very least.
Brexit means Brexit.

So what does that mean, then? Do you think the UK should adopt an autarchic economic policy instead?

[Bienenhalde]

I am not at all fond of such lowbrow “culture” and the thuggish nature my countrymen have taken on during sporting events disappoints me to no end. I much prefer more refined and civilised culture, such as that during our imperial hay-day or our Golden Age where British culture flourished and was as mentally stimulating as exquisite.

The pretentiousness of the dying nobility aside, such “lowbrow” culture was quite widespread in the 1800s.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat-bai ... aube_(1858)_b_733.jpg

Fair point, but it would still be nice if more the upper-class still acted like old-fashioned English aristocrats instead of Americanized woke liberals.

[Novus America]

The pretentiousness of the dying nobility aside, such “lowbrow” culture was quite widespread in the 1800s.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat-bai ... aube_(1858)_b_733.jpg

Fair point, but it would still be nice if more the upper-class still acted like old-fashioned English aristocrats instead of Americanized woke liberals.

Well considering that the “woke” ideas are often closer to European than American I hardly think it is fair to say they are solely American. I wish the “woke” European stuff was less here, but regardless CANZUK hardly fixes that, as Canada is far more “woke” than the US.

Actually the US is probably the LEAST “woke” of the 5.

[The Archbishopric of York]

Fair point, but it would still be nice if more the upper-class still acted like old-fashioned English aristocrats instead of Americanized woke liberals.

Well considering that the “woke” ideas are often closer to European than American I hardly think it is fair to say they are solely American. I wish the “woke” European stuff was less here, but regardless CANZUK hardly fixes that, as Canada is far more “woke” than the US.

Actually the US is probably the LEAST “woke” of the 5.

You are absolutely kidding yourself if you think "wokeness" isn't an American cultural export.

[SD_Film Artists]

It could work if it's actually a meaningful group; rather than the Commonwealth which is just symbolic* plus its poor man's version of the Olympic Games.

I'm not even sure what it's supposed to be symbolic of; empire-lite?

Fair point, but it would still be nice if more the upper-class still acted like old-fashioned English aristocrats instead of Americanized woke liberals.

Well considering that the “woke” ideas are often closer to European than American I hardly think it is fair to say they are solely American. I wish the “woke” European stuff was less here, but regardless CANZUK hardly fixes that, as Canada is far more “woke” than the US.

Actually the US is probably the LEAST “woke” of the 5.

Yet a lot of the "ACAB" stuff seems to be imported and memed from America rather than something organically driven.

[Novus America]

Well considering that the “woke” ideas are often closer to European than American I hardly think it is fair to say they are solely American. I wish the “woke” European stuff was less here, but regardless CANZUK hardly fixes that, as Canada is far more “woke” than the US.

Actually the US is probably the LEAST “woke” of the 5.

You are absolutely kidding yourself if you think "wokeness" isn't an American cultural export.

It is not that simple. Culture is not like a single item, made one place, sold another. Our culture influences others, but others influence us. Just as we influence you, you influence us, and others influence us and you at the same time.

Again theUS being less “woke” than the others, especially Canada indicates the US is not the sole source.

Again how would incorporating Trudeau’s rainbow capitalist wholeness into the UK make the UK less woke?

[Novus America]

It could work if it's actually a meaningful group; rather than the Commonwealth which is just symbolic* plus its poor man's version of the Olympic Games.

I'm not even sure what it's supposed to be symbolic of; empire-lite?

Well considering that the “woke” ideas are often closer to European than American I hardly think it is fair to say they are solely American. I wish the “woke” European stuff was less here, but regardless CANZUK hardly fixes that, as Canada is far more “woke” than the US.

Actually the US is probably the LEAST “woke” of the 5.

Yet a lot of the "ACAB" stuff seems to be imported and memed from America rather than something organically driven.

Oh certainly people and political groups in the US help drive it sure, (along with people and groups outsides the US) but using ideas and influences from elsewhere as well.
It is sort of like the weather, a storm may seem to come from one place, but atmospheric changes on the opposite side of the world actually were needed for it to start, and it in turn may change the atmospheric conditions on the other side of the world, only for those changes to change the area that started the change.

Point remains that given Canada is more “woke” than the US, then bringing Canada closer to the UK would only make the UK more, not less “woke”.

The US for example is the only one that does not criminalize “hate speech”, you can say things in the US that you cannot say in the others for example. The US is actually the least politically correct, least restrictive on many things like self defense, and has the largest pushback against rainbow capitalist wokeness of the 5.

As the US is the least “woke”, it seems the issue cannot be traced solely to the US.

[The Archbishopric of York]

You are absolutely kidding yourself if you think "wokeness" isn't an American cultural export.

It is not that simple. Culture is not like a single item, made one place, sold another. Our culture influences others, but others influence us. Just as we influence you, you influence us, and others influence us and you at the same time.

Again theUS being less “woke” than the others, especially Canada indicates the US is not the sole source.

American academia is absolutely the originator of much of the modern left's social justice ideology. The fact that America is generally more right-wing than most of Western Europe and the Old Commonwealth despite being the epicentre for the woke left is an indicator of how deeply polarised American society is. You just don't want to accept that these ideas came from America, but to say that wokeness is "more European than American" is a flat denial of reality.

Again how would incorporating Trudeau’s rainbow capitalist wholeness into the UK make the UK less woke?

Where in the hell did I say I wanted that?

[Novus America]

It is not that simple. Culture is not like a single item, made one place, sold another. Our culture influences others, but others influence us. Just as we influence you, you influence us, and others influence us and you at the same time.

Again theUS being less “woke” than the others, especially Canada indicates the US is not the sole source.

American academia is absolutely the originator of much of the modern left's social justice ideology. The fact that America is generally more right-wing than most of Western Europe and the Old Commonwealth despite being the epicentre for the woke left is an indicator of how deeply polarised American society is. You just don't want to accept that these ideas came from America, but to say that wokeness is "more European than American" is a flat denial of reality.

Again how would incorporating Trudeau’s rainbow capitalist wholeness into the UK make the UK less woke?

Where in the hell did I say I wanted that?

And many of those academic ideas came to the US from the Germans.

Theodor W. Adorno was a German, even if some of his work was published by US universities.

Sure the US academia (a large portion of which are not even Americans) has had a major influence and role in it, but that hardly means it is the only source. The US is the most influential true because of our sheer size (economically and population wise far larger than the other 4 combined) but still the US academia is often just a big echo chamber for outside ideas. Actually the US academia usually idealizes the Canada, the UK and Europe as being superior to the US.
Which should raise some interesting questions.

Why does the “woke” US academia want to emulate you?

Sure the US polarized, but that is because we have a much larger less “woke” percentage of the population.

You might not want Trudeau’s rainbow capitalism but that is what you would get if you brought in Canada. Which is the point. Moving Canada more towards the UK and less towards the US only would likely make both the UK and Canada more, not less woke.

[United England n Wales]

Hello NationStates!

For those of you who don't know CANZUK is a proposed alliance between Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom. Major proponents of this alliance would include free trade, looser immigration and travel policies, and military and defence co-operation.

Advocates of CANZUK point to to a shared cultural heritage, shared language, and historic friendships.

---

I have these questions for you guys

1. Is CANZUK practical in the 21st century?
2. Will these countries benefit from CANZUK?
3. Do you see CANZUK happening in the future?
4. Should other nations be considered?
5. Does it need a better name?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANZUK

1, Possible yes.
2, Depends on how trade talk would go, looser immigration would be off the table with the current UK government.
3, Yes, the USA should be included they are part of the Five Eyes, maybe Ireland but the issue there is that they are in the EU, cant see the EU being overly happy about it.
4, I like it, however it would have to be changed if of other countries joined ie USA.

[Major-Tom]

I mean, that just sounds like mutual co-operation and free trade with extra steps/red tape. *shrugs*

[United England n Wales]

I mean, that just sounds like mutual co-operation and free trade with extra steps/red tape. *shrugs*

Better then politcal bureaucratic nonsense like the EU.

[The Reformed American Republic]

And spread the CCP's "benevolent" rule? No, absolutely not.

[Costa Fierro]

People in the UK would probably think they were going to be the ones in charge, causing a lot of tensions with the other members.

They're already finding out that even their former colonies aren't going to take shit from them when they don't have to.

[Kazakah]

I've been an advocate of CANZUK for years and in my view that best way to achieve it would be to use the "Closer Economic Relations" agreement between Australia and New Zealand as a template - simply add in Canada and the UK.

Exactly my thoughts, closer economic relations would be to the greatest benefit should CANZUK happen. There is a problem of distance that would have to be considered if CANZUK were to happen. The UK's biggest trade partner in this would be Canada as its situated in the middle.

The biggest sticking points that I can imagine that would prevent such an agreement going forward would likely be:

1. Immigration: The UK, being the largest population and physically smallest of the four may not be keen on signing up to freedom of movement, given how much of a shit-show freedom of movement in the EU turned out to be. However as all four countries are culturally and economically similar (in fact the UK has the lowest HDI of the four), then there's likely to be no risk of everyone flocking to London for a better standard of living - the reverse is more likely.

Freedom of movement is definitely a debatable aspect of CANZUK. I can't see Johnson's government agreeing with it. However, you are right...you'd probably see increased immigration to other countries like Australia if free movement is incorporated.

2. Trade: I'm not a giant expert on the Canadian economy but if they're anything like their southern neighbour then their agriculture sector will probably feel extremely threatened by a free trade agreement with Australia and New Zealand, whose agriculture sectors are the most efficient in the world.

You have to keep in mind that Canada trades more with the US than any other country...the Canadian government might not be willing to spend time on trading with our other allies.

[Kazakah]

People in the UK would probably think they were going to be the ones in charge, causing a lot of tensions with the other members.

They're already finding out that even their former colonies aren't going to take shit from them when they don't have to.

imo that's why the only thing that CANZUK should ever be is a free trade zone. The former colony countries all value their independence from Britain too much for a political union to ever work out.

[Aclion]

Don't you all already have the commonwealth ?

The Commonwealth does jack all and includes various other nations (India, Pakistan, various African countries, etc.) which were once British colonies.

In other words we can't has a travel zone for the commonwealth because we invaded too many brown countries.

[Novus America]

The Commonwealth does jack all and includes various other nations (India, Pakistan, various African countries, etc.) which were once British colonies.

In other words we can't has a travel zone for the commonwealth because we invaded too many brown countries.

Not entirely wrong because the UK probably does not want to be an minority in an Indian majority country.

That is why an imperial federation with India was always going to be problematic, giving India fair representation in an Imperial parliament would mean India would control some 3/5s of it.

This is why the UK kept the Indian Empire as a British controlled but legally distinct entity (it was never a component state of the United Kingdom).

It would completely change British identity, culture and society. Even if you might think it better, not everyone would go along.

The massive population and economic imbalances would cause quite a lot of disruptions, and thus be too revolutionary for most to support.

[Pilipinas and Malaya]

They're already finding out that even their former colonies aren't going to take shit from them when they don't have to.

imo that's why the only thing that CANZUK should ever be is a free trade zone. The former colony countries all value their independence from Britain too much for a political union to ever work out.

Other countries wouldn't take it well if they learned Britain became their neighbour overnight.

[United England n Wales]

They're already finding out that even their former colonies aren't going to take shit from them when they don't have to.

imo that's why the only thing that CANZUK should ever be is a free trade zone. The former colony countries all value their independence from Britain too much for a political union to ever work out.

And the UK is not too quick to jump in a political union after leaving the EU.

[Kanadorika]

I don’t care if you damage your own property in such a childish manner. Go ahead, it isn’t going to affect me. I just want British kids and adults to stop using Americanisms, importing American social issues or degenerating themselves into celeb-loving, fast food-obsessed, obese and improperly-behaved fools like what seems to be common from what I’ve seen. Personally I much more like the idea of elitising the British and Anglophone populations and seeing true Britonhood rather than the international faux-Americans.
.

True Britonhood

You see, Americans rioting over black lives is nothing more than foolish uncivilized violence.

A true Anglo riots over a football match.

[Costa Fierro]

They're already finding out that even their former colonies aren't going to take shit from them when they don't have to.

imo that's why the only thing that CANZUK should ever be is a free trade zone. The former colony countries all value their independence from Britain too much for a political union to ever work out.

It's not a political union, it was free movement. Not sure where the free trade came from, as far as we know everyone bar the UK is in the CPTPP agreement (whenever that gets revived, at the moment it looks pretty dead in the water).

The trade deal they've recently started negotiating with New Zealand, at best, is going to have zero impact on the British economy and at worst, shrink it. All so it can get access to the CPTPP. But even then New Zealand is basically demanding Westminster hand over their lunch money or they won't get access.

It's going to be a very, very hard lesson for them.