NATION

PASSWORD

Marxism

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
Zottistan
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14884
Founded: Nov 26, 2011
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Zottistan » Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:51 am

Pangurstan wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
It comes from the death tolls of the Holodomor, the Cultural Revolution, and every other heinous genocide, war, and massacre committed under a Red Flag.

Stop trying to rewrite history because it doesn't support your narrative. Communism is a con that has left over half the world in devastating poverty.

Chomsky wrote:While India's democratic institutions prevented famines, its excess of mortality over China—potentially attributable to the latter's more equal distribution of medical and other resources—was nonetheless close to 4 million per year for non-famine years. Supposing we now apply the methodology of the Black Book" to India, "the democratic capitalist 'experiment' has caused more deaths than in the entire history of [...] Communism everywhere since 1917: over 100 million deaths by 1979, and tens of millions more since, in India alone.

The general rule of thumb is that everything bad that ever happened under a nominally socialist government can be attributed directly to leftist politics, while anything bad that ever happens under liberal-democratic capitalism is a blip, the product of individual bad people and can in no way be attributed to liberalism or capitalism.

User avatar
Cisairse
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8346
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:51 am

Rojava Free State wrote:
  • Do you believe that Marx's views on the class dichotomy are valid, or reductionist? Some modern authors have claimed that Marx downplayed the role of intersectionality in oppression, but Marx himself wrote about gender roles etc often, including in the Manifesto.
  • Is Marxism—Leninism revisionist, or is it merely an extension of Marx's views?
  • Do you believe that Marx has been vindicated or damned by the more than 170 years since he began to publish his theories?


I believe Marx's views on class have held true since the dawn of civilization. Almost every modern society has had an upper class that often held more rights than the lower class, and in today's society that upper class consists of those who own capital. Class revisionism is a word made up by people with no interest in real progress posing as progressives. They focus on their own ethnic group or gender instead of focusing on the improvement of conditions for all people everywhere because they only care about their own group and no one else. Seriously, what kind of person says "what about black people?" When someone says "free healthcare for the poor." Like yes you stupid prick, black people will get free healthcare too if they can't afford healthcare. What, did you think we meant "free healthcare for everyone except blacks." Come on. We talk about getting workers rights for all workers and someone says "well what about latino immigrant farm workers." Uh, yeah? If we get rights for all workers then latino immigrant farm workers get rights too. Why is this concept so hard to grasp? If we help all poor people, your specific subset of poor people will be helped. You should frankly be happy we're helping all of the downtrodden instead of constantly making it about your group and yourself. At this point, the same people make the claim that left wingers think LGBT rights and women's rights are viewed as less important. They aren't. Once again, from the top, all human beings deserve equal rights. Everyone. I just think that class inequality is a more nagging issue in this current time than gender inequality. It doesn't mean I don't think gender inequality exists or that I approve of it. We can fight for the rights of more than one group of people without having to pick and choose who we fight for. You can walk and chew gum.

Okay now that I'm done ranting about why class reduction accusers are full of it, I think Marxist-Leninism is slightly revisionist. Marx observed society's ills of class conflict, and he explained his idea of what a better society looked like. Lenin put this into practice and showed what he thought was the way to create Marx's ideal society. He didn't create it of course, but marxist-leninists thought they would. Maybe revision isn't a good term for it. Maybe "an expanded philosophy" or "add on" is a better way to view Marxist-Leninism. Lastly, I think just the last 20 years alone have vindicated Marx's worldview. We're basically a world of workers and owners of profit. Some workers make more money than others and have better working conditions, but all workers share one thing in common. You're at the mercy of your employer. You don't have a choice but to work so you can eat, and whatever your employer decides to do is more often than not what ends up going down. Some of us are fortunate enough to he unionized like myself, but unions are a dying concept in America and to this day, even jobs that have unions often try to go around the unions anyhow. Even a top notch lawyer is relying on his boss for the means to buy food and keep a roof over head. If he gets fired, it's a pipeline to a tent city in San Francisco. There's a slippery slope down to the streets. The owners of capital don't have to worry about "losing their job." They have far more control over the way they acquire their money and while they may fall on hard times, only the total collapse of their business will damage them in a significant way. A simple recession could put you or I out of a job, onto the street. Think about that. I don't agree completely with Marx's solution to the problem, but I think Marx was correct in pointing out that there is a problem, and it seems to be getting worse nowadays.

I agree strongly with the idea that ML is an "add-on" to Marxism — a sort of filling of the blanks of the fill-in-the-blank parts of the Manifesto. In the same way that Хлeбъ и воля was a filling-of-the-blanks for an anarchist society based on mutual aid, ML fills in the blanks by extending the Marx-era ideas of vanguardism and proletarian dictatorship to cover more aspects of society than Marx had originally wrote about.
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

Yeah, I support my troops
They wave black flags
They wear black masks

User avatar
Rojava Free State
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18586
Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Rojava Free State » Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:55 am

Cisairse wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
I believe Marx's views on class have held true since the dawn of civilization. Almost every modern society has had an upper class that often held more rights than the lower class, and in today's society that upper class consists of those who own capital. Class revisionism is a word made up by people with no interest in real progress posing as progressives. They focus on their own ethnic group or gender instead of focusing on the improvement of conditions for all people everywhere because they only care about their own group and no one else. Seriously, what kind of person says "what about black people?" When someone says "free healthcare for the poor." Like yes you stupid prick, black people will get free healthcare too if they can't afford healthcare. What, did you think we meant "free healthcare for everyone except blacks." Come on. We talk about getting workers rights for all workers and someone says "well what about latino immigrant farm workers." Uh, yeah? If we get rights for all workers then latino immigrant farm workers get rights too. Why is this concept so hard to grasp? If we help all poor people, your specific subset of poor people will be helped. You should frankly be happy we're helping all of the downtrodden instead of constantly making it about your group and yourself. At this point, the same people make the claim that left wingers think LGBT rights and women's rights are viewed as less important. They aren't. Once again, from the top, all human beings deserve equal rights. Everyone. I just think that class inequality is a more nagging issue in this current time than gender inequality. It doesn't mean I don't think gender inequality exists or that I approve of it. We can fight for the rights of more than one group of people without having to pick and choose who we fight for. You can walk and chew gum.

Okay now that I'm done ranting about why class reduction accusers are full of it, I think Marxist-Leninism is slightly revisionist. Marx observed society's ills of class conflict, and he explained his idea of what a better society looked like. Lenin put this into practice and showed what he thought was the way to create Marx's ideal society. He didn't create it of course, but marxist-leninists thought they would. Maybe revision isn't a good term for it. Maybe "an expanded philosophy" or "add on" is a better way to view Marxist-Leninism. Lastly, I think just the last 20 years alone have vindicated Marx's worldview. We're basically a world of workers and owners of profit. Some workers make more money than others and have better working conditions, but all workers share one thing in common. You're at the mercy of your employer. You don't have a choice but to work so you can eat, and whatever your employer decides to do is more often than not what ends up going down. Some of us are fortunate enough to he unionized like myself, but unions are a dying concept in America and to this day, even jobs that have unions often try to go around the unions anyhow. Even a top notch lawyer is relying on his boss for the means to buy food and keep a roof over head. If he gets fired, it's a pipeline to a tent city in San Francisco. There's a slippery slope down to the streets. The owners of capital don't have to worry about "losing their job." They have far more control over the way they acquire their money and while they may fall on hard times, only the total collapse of their business will damage them in a significant way. A simple recession could put you or I out of a job, onto the street. Think about that. I don't agree completely with Marx's solution to the problem, but I think Marx was correct in pointing out that there is a problem, and it seems to be getting worse nowadays.

I agree strongly with the idea that ML is an "add-on" to Marxism — a sort of filling of the blanks of the fill-in-the-blank parts of the Manifesto. In the same way that Хлeбъ и воля was a filling-of-the-blanks for an anarchist society based on mutual aid, ML fills in the blanks by extending the Marx-era ideas of vanguardism and proletarian dictatorship to cover more aspects of society than Marx had originally wrote about.


Marx saw the problem and imagined a world without said problem. The MLs tried to solve the problem to get to Marx's ideal world. They arent really different. It's just the answer to Marx's question, which was "how do we end the capitalist system?"
political compass:

Economic Left/Right: -0.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.38
pro: marijuana, gun rights, private property

anti: fascism, communism, islamism, sexism, pan africanism, La raza, Warren Police Department (and most of the other police departments of metro Detroit except for Auburn Hills. They're aight), gun control, trump, obama, bush, clinton, reagan, carter, chipotle and snotty in crowd teens. Ugh I can't deal with them
Hurdergaryp wrote:Humanity keeps seeing itself as the crown of creation, but to this world we're a crown of thorns at best.


Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/invites/conta ... ent=82zr2h

User avatar
Duvniask
Senator
 
Posts: 4282
Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:57 am

Stylan wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:Crypto-Marxists are one of the major reasons society is coming apart at the seams at the moment.

What the fuck are "crypto-Marxists?"

It's the same old bitching about "cultural Marxism", reformulated anew.
Supporting anTIFA.

Economic Left/Right: -9.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.87
Danish | Political science student | Left communist
The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters.

User avatar
Joohan
Senator
 
Posts: 4733
Founded: Jan 11, 2018
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Joohan » Wed Jun 24, 2020 8:59 am

Cisairse wrote:I disagree, though. History isn't shaped by exceptional events, really. When I say history of course I don't mean the contents of a textbook, I mean how human society is organized and how those organizations have changed over time.
Those changes have nearly exclusively come from class conflict. The dictatorship of the aristocracy looked very similar for non-aristocratic members of society in mostly every country in which it occurred. The dictatorship of the bourgeois looks very similar for members of the proletariat in mostly every country in which it occurs.


I agree, but again, if we are going by how people interact with the organizations which they are apart of, then class isn't really the driving force here. Take the Church for example, something which was in the daily lives of nearly every person living in Europe for the entirety of the Medieval period. Though certainly it had it's share of rich individuals involved in it, poverty sworn men and women were extremely common throughout every rank and field of the Church. The driving force of history isn't class. Class and change are both just byproducts of drive.



I wouldn't say that eg the crusades really had any effect on the greater history of humanity, except that in a sense the 4th Crusade hastened the rise of the merchant class in Italy, which in turn hastened the rise of the bourgeois as a competitor for power against the aristocracy which, some hundreds of years later, led to the downfall of aristocratic dictatorships across the globe.[/quote]

I'm not going to get too much into it - but it actually had a huge affect. It pretty much set up the next five hundred years of politics, diplomacy, economics, and warfare for Europe and the near east.
Make Christendom Great Again!

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism!


User avatar
Conterale
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 44
Founded: Jun 13, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Conterale » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:04 am

1. I think Marx is correct on class warfare
2. no, but revisionism isn't necessarily a bad thing, since Marx's political theory was made for the mid-1800's, not 2020.
Last edited by Conterale on Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Schrödinger's Fascist
Needs to claim other races are inferior in order to justify ideology, but also needs to claim other races have controlled the world in order to set them as scapegoats.

I do NOT use NS stats.

A 10.2 civilization, according to this index.

"You Cannot serve both god and mammon"| Matthew 6:24
"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”| Matthew 19:24

User avatar
Conterale
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 44
Founded: Jun 13, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Conterale » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:07 am

Stylan wrote:
Joohan wrote:
... What?

Homosexuality was legalized in the Soviet Union in 1917. Homosexuality was legalized in Cuba since 1979 (though it was still discriminated against.)

Women obtained the right to vote in the USSR in 1917. They were the first country to do so. Discrimination against blacks was not nearly as strong as it was in Soviet Russia as it was in the U.S., however this could be due to the fact there were very few blacks in the USSR.

The USSR had an extremely similar diet and calorie consumption, and at one time, had higher calorie consumption daily then the U.S. (that is from the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization by the way.)

Cuba has practically eliminated hunger:
https://www.wfpusa.org/countries/cuba/#

But yeah, maybe Marxism sucks because the CIA written textbook you were given in school tells you so.


i mean, people were still murdered for being gay.
Also of course it's because there were less blacks. You don't see blacks in eastern europe much, mdue to the fact that they weren't enslaved, and so the rich didn't really need to spread the idea that black people were inferior.
Schrödinger's Fascist
Needs to claim other races are inferior in order to justify ideology, but also needs to claim other races have controlled the world in order to set them as scapegoats.

I do NOT use NS stats.

A 10.2 civilization, according to this index.

"You Cannot serve both god and mammon"| Matthew 6:24
"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”| Matthew 19:24

User avatar
Nevertopia
Envoy
 
Posts: 204
Founded: May 27, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nevertopia » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:16 am

Duvniask wrote:
Nevertopia wrote:Marxism has failed every time its been tried.

And so it was, since Ancient times, we were once again made to hear the screeching of people who get their politics from memes, thinking they sound clever when they say Marxism has failed every time its been tried.

Never mind that Marxism is not something you "try", as if the materialist conception of history is disproven by people who tried to will socialism into existence without the necessary development of productive forces and social relations which historical materialism suggests you need in the first place (!).


Yet here we are, and it has failed every time.
Black Lives Matter

An 18.2 civilization, according to this index.
Tier 5: Practical Physicist | Level 5: Mystical Magician | Type 5: Regional Regent
This nation's overview is the primary canon. For more information use NS stats.

User avatar
Philjia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10184
Founded: Sep 15, 2014
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Philjia » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:17 am

I agree with the Labour Theory of Value in general, and some of Marx's analysis of the relationships between the classes, but his conclusions about how society will progress through socialism into communism are highly suspect and haven't really been borne out by history. I have more of a problem with Lenin, who I consider to be the architect of the authoritarianism which pervaded 20th century socialist states. Personally, I'm a reformist and utopian at heart, and have very little trust in the viability or safety of insurrectionist revolutions.
Iain M Banks wrote:There came a point when a conspiracy became that powerful and subtle it became pointless to worry about it.

⚧ Gender and sex aren't the same thing. ⚧
Progressive reformist co-operativist democratic market socialist. Pro LGBT rights and gay marriage, pro gay adoption, pro EU, atheist, pro free speech and expression, pro legalisation of prostitution and soft drugs, and pro choice. Anti authoritarian, anti bigotry, anti radfem. White cishet male.

User avatar
Nevertopia
Envoy
 
Posts: 204
Founded: May 27, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nevertopia » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:22 am

Philjia wrote:I agree with the Labour Theory of Value in general, and some of Marx's analysis of the relationships between the classes, but his conclusions about how society will progress through socialism into communism are highly suspect and haven't really been borne out by history. I have more of a problem with Lenin, who I consider to be the architect of the authoritarianism which pervaded 20th century socialist states. Personally, I'm a reformist and utopian at heart, and have very little trust in the viability or safety of insurrectionist revolutions.


From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs sounds nice and all until you realize sometimes people need more than they can produce.
Black Lives Matter

An 18.2 civilization, according to this index.
Tier 5: Practical Physicist | Level 5: Mystical Magician | Type 5: Regional Regent
This nation's overview is the primary canon. For more information use NS stats.

User avatar
Zottistan
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14884
Founded: Nov 26, 2011
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Zottistan » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:23 am

Nevertopia wrote:
Philjia wrote:I agree with the Labour Theory of Value in general, and some of Marx's analysis of the relationships between the classes, but his conclusions about how society will progress through socialism into communism are highly suspect and haven't really been borne out by history. I have more of a problem with Lenin, who I consider to be the architect of the authoritarianism which pervaded 20th century socialist states. Personally, I'm a reformist and utopian at heart, and have very little trust in the viability or safety of insurrectionist revolutions.


From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs sounds nice and all until you realize sometimes people need more than they can produce.

What, you mean like, disabled people, children, the sick and the elderly?

User avatar
Cisairse
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8346
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:24 am

Nevertopia wrote:
Philjia wrote:I agree with the Labour Theory of Value in general, and some of Marx's analysis of the relationships between the classes, but his conclusions about how society will progress through socialism into communism are highly suspect and haven't really been borne out by history. I have more of a problem with Lenin, who I consider to be the architect of the authoritarianism which pervaded 20th century socialist states. Personally, I'm a reformist and utopian at heart, and have very little trust in the viability or safety of insurrectionist revolutions.


From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs sounds nice and all until you realize sometimes people need more than they can produce.

Which doesn't really happen in industrial societies.
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

Yeah, I support my troops
They wave black flags
They wear black masks

User avatar
Kubra
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12802
Founded: Apr 15, 2006
Libertarian Police State

Postby Kubra » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:28 am

Stylan wrote:
Joohan wrote:
... What?

Homosexuality was legalized in the Soviet Union in 1917. Homosexuality was legalized in Cuba since 1979 (though it was still discriminated against.)

Women obtained the right to vote in the USSR in 1917. They were the first country to do so. Discrimination against blacks was not nearly as strong as it was in Soviet Russia as it was in the U.S., however this could be due to the fact there were very few blacks in the USSR.

The USSR had an extremely similar diet and calorie consumption, and at one time, had higher calorie consumption daily then the U.S. (that is from the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization by the way.)

Cuba has practically eliminated hunger:
https://www.wfpusa.org/countries/cuba/#

But yeah, maybe Marxism sucks because the CIA written textbook you were given in school tells you so.
but then homosexuality was recriminalised.
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
-Comrade Posadas

User avatar
Duvniask
Senator
 
Posts: 4282
Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:38 am

Nevertopia wrote:
Philjia wrote:I agree with the Labour Theory of Value in general, and some of Marx's analysis of the relationships between the classes, but his conclusions about how society will progress through socialism into communism are highly suspect and haven't really been borne out by history. I have more of a problem with Lenin, who I consider to be the architect of the authoritarianism which pervaded 20th century socialist states. Personally, I'm a reformist and utopian at heart, and have very little trust in the viability or safety of insurrectionist revolutions.


From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs sounds nice and all until you realize sometimes people need more than they can produce.

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" literally means people contribute according to their ability and receive according to their needs. You've misunderstood the entire point of the phrase.

It's the most straightforward thing imaginable.
Last edited by Duvniask on Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Supporting anTIFA.

Economic Left/Right: -9.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.87
Danish | Political science student | Left communist
The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters.

User avatar
Names Are Too Hard
Secretary
 
Posts: 27
Founded: Jun 17, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Names Are Too Hard » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:44 am

Stylan wrote:
Nevertopia wrote:Marxism has failed every time its been tried.

How? The USSR lasted 60+ years, Cuba, Vietnam, DPRK and Laos still exist. I leave out China because i am not educated on China to know whether it is communist or not. Mao's China however, basically achieved full communism.

The DPRK is not completely Marxist. It, if I remember correctly, has formed its own ideology.
Sometimes words sound good in my head but my tongue make not the words sound good
Typos and bad grammar are likely due to me being on mobile, but might just be cause I’m stupid.

User avatar
Duvniask
Senator
 
Posts: 4282
Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:45 am

Nevertopia wrote:
Duvniask wrote:And so it was, since Ancient times, we were once again made to hear the screeching of people who get their politics from memes, thinking they sound clever when they say Marxism has failed every time its been tried.

Never mind that Marxism is not something you "try", as if the materialist conception of history is disproven by people who tried to will socialism into existence without the necessary development of productive forces and social relations which historical materialism suggests you need in the first place (!).


Yet here we are, and it has failed every time.

Yet here we are, you reiterating the same exact thing, having learned nothing. Maybe craft an actual response next time.
Supporting anTIFA.

Economic Left/Right: -9.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.87
Danish | Political science student | Left communist
The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters.

User avatar
The New California Republic
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27197
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:49 am

Zottistan wrote:
Nevertopia wrote:Marxism has failed every time its been tried.

Marxism is a critique of capitalism. It can't be "tried" because it's not a programmatic ideology. Specific programmes subscribing to Marxist critiques might be described as having failed, but that's a failing on the part of those programmes, not of Marxist critique.

And that was the main economic problem with "Marxist" governments, that Marxism gave very little in the way of what economic forms and methods a post-capitalist socialist economy should use.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

NS Hitman
White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

User avatar
Zottistan
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14884
Founded: Nov 26, 2011
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Zottistan » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:51 am

Names Are Too Hard wrote:
Stylan wrote:How? The USSR lasted 60+ years, Cuba, Vietnam, DPRK and Laos still exist. I leave out China because i am not educated on China to know whether it is communist or not. Mao's China however, basically achieved full communism.

The DPRK is not completely Marxist. It, if I remember correctly, has formed its own ideology.

Kim Jong-Un emphasized way back in the day that the DPRK couldn't follow ML principles, as they were too predicated on a culture of European capitalism that didn't exist in Korea and so would have an entirely different historical trajectory. They're doing they're own thing as far as they're concerned.

User avatar
Cisairse
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8346
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:53 am

juche is nazbol gang
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

Yeah, I support my troops
They wave black flags
They wear black masks

User avatar
Duvniask
Senator
 
Posts: 4282
Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:04 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Zottistan wrote:Marxism is a critique of capitalism. It can't be "tried" because it's not a programmatic ideology. Specific programmes subscribing to Marxist critiques might be described as having failed, but that's a failing on the part of those programmes, not of Marxist critique.

And that was the main economic problem with "Marxist" governments, that Marxism gave very little in the way of what economic forms and methods a post-capitalist socialist economy should use.

What Marx sketched/outlined for the transitory period and the socialist mode of production was not followed, either.
Supporting anTIFA.

Economic Left/Right: -9.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.87
Danish | Political science student | Left communist
The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born: now is the time of monsters.

User avatar
Alcala-Cordel
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 387
Founded: Dec 16, 2019
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Alcala-Cordel » Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:12 am

Nevertopia wrote:
Duvniask wrote:And so it was, since Ancient times, we were once again made to hear the screeching of people who get their politics from memes, thinking they sound clever when they say Marxism has failed every time its been tried.

Never mind that Marxism is not something you "try", as if the materialist conception of history is disproven by people who tried to will socialism into existence without the necessary development of productive forces and social relations which historical materialism suggests you need in the first place (!).


Yet here we are, and it has failed every time.

The Zapatistas, the Rojava, and the Paris Commune would like a word.
Last edited by Alcala-Cordel on Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
. The Red Coalition of Ⓐlcala-Cordel .
--General History--Map--Polandball--Economy--Government Structure--Canon--
Pros: Leftism, communim, anarchism, Marxism, antifa, abortion, the environment, LGBTQ+, direct democracy, universal healthcare, decentralized state, open borders, unions

Anti: Cops, Fascism, neoconservatism, neoliberalism, capitalism, racism, sexism, xenophobia, TERFs, military industrial complex, US military (post-WW2), nationalism, USA, fossil fuels, electoral college, concentration camps, imperialism
Alcala-Cordel mostly represents my real political views, based mainly around neozapatism and anarcho-communism. I have a factbook on where I lean politically here.

User avatar
Conterale
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 44
Founded: Jun 13, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Conterale » Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:24 am

Alcala-Cordel wrote:
Nevertopia wrote:
Yet here we are, and it has failed every time.

The Zapatistas, the Rojava, and the Paris Commune would like a word.

2 out of 3 of them were sucessful, but as far as i know, wasn't the PC destroyed by imperialists soon after it';s founding?
Schrödinger's Fascist
Needs to claim other races are inferior in order to justify ideology, but also needs to claim other races have controlled the world in order to set them as scapegoats.

I do NOT use NS stats.

A 10.2 civilization, according to this index.

"You Cannot serve both god and mammon"| Matthew 6:24
"Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”| Matthew 19:24

User avatar
Joohan
Senator
 
Posts: 4733
Founded: Jan 11, 2018
Authoritarian Democracy

Postby Joohan » Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:27 am

Alcala-Cordel wrote:
Nevertopia wrote:
Yet here we are, and it has failed every time.

The Zapatistas, the Rojava, and the Paris Commune would like a word.


One of those failed, Rojava is about to fail, and i'm not sure how successful we can call the Zapatistas. They do exercise autonomy of a few of their local communities - but this is as the behest of a greater foreign power. I'm not sure that you would be able to call the Zap's a successful example, seeing as their survival is dependent upon a capitalist narco-state electing not to kill them.
Make Christendom Great Again!

There is no room in this country for hyphenated Americanism!


User avatar
Cisairse
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8346
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:28 am

Conterale wrote:
Alcala-Cordel wrote:The Zapatistas, the Rojava, and the Paris Commune would like a word.

2 out of 3 of them were sucessful, but as far as i know, wasn't the PC destroyed by imperialists soon after it';s founding?

Yes; Marx wrote about the causes of their failure extensively.
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

Yeah, I support my troops
They wave black flags
They wear black masks

User avatar
Alcala-Cordel
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 387
Founded: Dec 16, 2019
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Alcala-Cordel » Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:31 am

Conterale wrote:
Alcala-Cordel wrote:The Zapatistas, the Rojava, and the Paris Commune would like a word.

2 out of 3 of them were sucessful, but as far as i know, wasn't the PC destroyed by imperialists soon after it';s founding?

It was, but there are still lessons to he learned from it
. The Red Coalition of Ⓐlcala-Cordel .
--General History--Map--Polandball--Economy--Government Structure--Canon--
Pros: Leftism, communim, anarchism, Marxism, antifa, abortion, the environment, LGBTQ+, direct democracy, universal healthcare, decentralized state, open borders, unions

Anti: Cops, Fascism, neoconservatism, neoliberalism, capitalism, racism, sexism, xenophobia, TERFs, military industrial complex, US military (post-WW2), nationalism, USA, fossil fuels, electoral college, concentration camps, imperialism
Alcala-Cordel mostly represents my real political views, based mainly around neozapatism and anarcho-communism. I have a factbook on where I lean politically here.

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Greater Miami Shores, Infected Mushroom, Kowani, Majestic-12 [Bot], Nobel Hobos 2, Proctopeo, Salus Maior, Senkaku, Shrillland, Stellar Colonies, Trollgaard

Advertisement

Remove ads