Marxism

[UniversalCommons]

I think it is time for the left to try something out with more modern thought. Science and sociology have advanced quite a bit since Marx. It is time for a change.

[Stylan]

It comes from the death tolls of the Holodomor, the Cultural Revolution, and every other heinous genocide, war, and massacre committed under a Red Flag.

Stop trying to rewrite history because it doesn't support your narrative. Communism is a con that has left over half the world in devastating poverty.

Well it left a lot of the world in poverty but thankfully free trade and capitalism has brought them out of it.

Are you joking?

I think it is time for the left to try something out with more modern thought. Science and sociology have advanced quite a bit since Marx. It is time for a change.

Do you know of the Venus Project? If you are looking for technocratic communism check it out.

[South Odreria 2]

I think it is time for the left to try something out with more modern thought. Science and sociology have advanced quite a bit since Marx. It is time for a change.

Do you have any idea what Karl Marx said?

He’s not the end all be all but his argument about how the economy works was largely correct then and is now.

[Dominioan]

Oh sorry, forgive me for not comparing them to reddit fan fictions of what luxury automated space gay communism would look like. As we all know, real communism™ would provide a utopia on earth!

The idea that there are no alternatives to liberal capitalism except "reddit fan fictions of [...] luxury automated space gay communism" is tragically naïve.

There are alternatives. Marxism as a criticism of captalism is good, but the ideologies it suggested have always failed in the end. Maybe there is a "true communism" , but it seems to like never showing up after the revolution.

[Stylan]

The idea that there are no alternatives to liberal capitalism except "reddit fan fictions of [...] luxury automated space gay communism" is tragically naïve.

There are alternatives. Marxism as a criticism of captalism is good, but the ideologies it suggested have always failed in the end. Maybe there is a "true communism" , but it seems to like never showing up after the revolution.

Look into Mao's China, it came very close to full communism.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_commune
Start here.

or become a Left Communist.

[Ansarre]

Well it left a lot of the world in poverty but thankfully free trade and capitalism has brought them out of it.

Are you joking?

I think it is time for the left to try something out with more modern thought. Science and sociology have advanced quite a bit since Marx. It is time for a change.

Do you know of the Venus Project? If you are looking for technocratic communism check it out.

Why would I be joking? Nearly a billion people have been taken out of poverty in the last twenty years. Those are two decades marked by economic liberalisation and expansion of free trade.

[Dominioan]

There are alternatives. Marxism as a criticism of captalism is good, but the ideologies it suggested have always failed in the end. Maybe there is a "true communism" , but it seems to like never showing up after the revolution.

Look into Mao's China, it came very close to full communism.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_commune
Start here.

or become a Left Communist.

China has also devolved into human rights violations and political suppression.

[South Odreria 2]

Are you joking?

Do you know of the Venus Project? If you are looking for technocratic communism check it out.

Why would I be joking? Nearly a billion people have been taken out of poverty in the last twenty years. Those are two decades marked by economic liberalisation and expansion of free trade.

Pretty sure this is a parody account

[Cisairse]

The idea that there are no alternatives to liberal capitalism except "reddit fan fictions of [...] luxury automated space gay communism" is tragically naïve.

There are alternatives. Marxism as a criticism of captalism is good, but the ideologies it suggested have always failed in the end. Maybe there is a "true communism" , but it seems to like never showing up after the revolution.

Well, the world revolution never happened.

Several revolutions actually did achieve the higher state of communism. However, all of the nation-wide revolutions fell to international intervention due to the capitalist order requiring resources to sustain itself.

[Stylan]

Are you joking?

Do you know of the Venus Project? If you are looking for technocratic communism check it out.

Why would I be joking? Nearly a billion people have been taken out of poverty in the last twenty years. Those are two decades marked by economic liberalisation and expansion of free trade.

Read this article.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... neoliberal

And this, though not entirely related:
https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/
You discount things such as industrialization. If you compared the life of someone in 1820 to the life of someone in 1640, the person in 1820 would be better off. But they'd still be in poverty.

[Stylan]

Look into Mao's China, it came very close to full communism.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_commune
Start here.

or become a Left Communist.

China has also devolved into human rights violations and political suppression.

I specifically said Mao's China.

[Dominioan]

China has also devolved into human rights violations and political suppression.

I specifically said Mao's China.

Mao also had rich peasants and land owners beaten to death in his reforms.

[Joohan]

I think it is time for the left to try something out with more modern thought. Science and sociology have advanced quite a bit since Marx. It is time for a change.

They have, it's called Pink Capitalism.

[Ansarre]

Why would I be joking? Nearly a billion people have been taken out of poverty in the last twenty years. Those are two decades marked by economic liberalisation and expansion of free trade.

Pretty sure this is a parody account

I don't think it is. You'll find market liberalism is much more popular in the real world than socialism is. Macron, Merkel, Varadkar, Kurz, Rutte...

Why would I be joking? Nearly a billion people have been taken out of poverty in the last twenty years. Those are two decades marked by economic liberalisation and expansion of free trade.

Read this article.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... neoliberal

And this, though not entirely related:
https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/
You discount things such as industrialization. If you compared the life of someone in 1820 to the life of someone in 1640, the person in 1820 would be better off. But they'd still be in poverty.

First article is incredibly stupid.

"There are a number of problems with this graph, though. First of all, real data on poverty has only been collected since 1981. Anything before that is extremely sketchy, and to go back as far as 1820 is meaningless."
Yes, he's correct. I mean, the graph itself says this. However the figures given aren't just made up out of thin air.
Haser and Rosell gave a good defense of their methodology here.

i don't really care for the second article. It's just peddling this same old myth that the productivity-pay gap is increasing at an alarming rate. I would write out a brief rebuke of it but this is a more in depth one.

[UniversalCommons]

I am more prone to Green Capitalism along the lines of Paul Hawken and Amory Lovins. Pink is watermelon colored, green on the outside and red on the inside. Marxism is based on class struggle. Automation is replacing labor. What happens if everyone ends up in the service industry and all the people who have money own the automation. It is not a Marxian scenario. It is a form of corporatism where everyone gets a subsidy and permanent work at walmart. All the education moves online and the trolls (technicians) control the knowledge and the rich control the automation and of course everyone else gets either, a kind of mixed up welfare (Universal Basic Income), or gig work. The future is not a Marxian scenario.

[Major-Tom]

Leftist infighting is a hell of a drug.

Is it really infighting if one group of people actually goes out and tries to accomplish stuff and another group sits around and calls them tankies?

Anti-marxist “leftist” people are overwhelmingly armchair revolutionaries.

I don't know man, most of my time is spent campaigning atm, and I love a good protest.

I reckon the Marxists on the internet are not just confined to an armchair, right? Y'know, since obviously leftists who aren't radical aren't capable of going out and trying to make the world a better place?

[South Odreria 2]

Is it really infighting if one group of people actually goes out and tries to accomplish stuff and another group sits around and calls them tankies?

Anti-marxist “leftist” people are overwhelmingly armchair revolutionaries.

I don't know man, most of my time is spent campaigning atm, and I love a good protest.

I reckon the Marxists on the internet are not just confined to an armchair, right? Y'know, since obviously leftists who aren't radical aren't capable of going out and trying to make the world a better place?

Not taking about social democrats, those are cool. Talking about people who claim to be radical leftists but claim that Marx is bad. Those for the most part do not do anything.

[Joohan]

I am more prone to Green Capitalism along the lines of Paul Hawken and Amory Lovins. Pink is watermelon colored, green on the outside and red on the inside. Marxism is based on class struggle. Automation is replacing labor. What happens if everyone ends up in the service industry and all the people who have money own the automation. It is not a Marxian scenario. It is a form of corporatism where everyone gets a subsidy and permanent work at walmart. All the education moves online and the trolls (technicians) control the knowledge and the rich control the automation and of course everyone else gets either, a kind of mixed up welfare (Universal Basic Income), or gig work. The future is not a Marxian scenario.

Actually, service industry will be one of the most quickly automated industries - even a surprising amount of specialty jobs like coding will go out with more advanced automation.

Some marxists believe that, should we achieve this, so called, Post Scarcity Economy, everything will just get nationalized and become publically owned. Fully Automated Gay Luxury Space Communism. This of course, assumes that power can be wrenched from a now unfathomably wealthy and influential elite, who literally control the world now.

Tis why I am sympathetic towards the luddite persuasion....

[Cisairse]

Automation is not new, nor is it novel in any way. There is virtually no difference between robots replacing manufacturing jobs and man-powered machines destroying manufactures during the 19th century.

[Major-Tom]

I don't know man, most of my time is spent campaigning atm, and I love a good protest.

I reckon the Marxists on the internet are not just confined to an armchair, right? Y'know, since obviously leftists who aren't radical aren't capable of going out and trying to make the world a better place?

Not taking about social democrats, those are cool. Talking about people who claim to be radical leftists but claim that Marx is bad. Those for the most part do not do anything.

Fair, fair. In that case, and I'm not trying to be an ass here, we talking people who are actually lefties or just milquetoast varieties of third-way types or what have you?

[UniversalCommons]

The Occupy Movement is not based on Marxism, it is based on direct participatory democracy which is a very different animal than Marx, also the Hong Kong riots are focused more on participatory, direct democracy than Marxism, if anything, they are completely opposed to Marxism. The most active leftists seem to be focused on participatory democracy. The underlying movement has a very dark humor to it. There is a basic denial that there is any kind of core belief. Participatory democracy is not compatible with authoritarian Marxism.

[South Odreria 2]

Not taking about social democrats, those are cool. Talking about people who claim to be radical leftists but claim that Marx is bad. Those for the most part do not do anything.

Fair, fair. In that case, and I'm not trying to be an ass here, we talking people who are actually lefties or just milquetoast varieties of third-way types or what have you?

I’m thinking extremely socially liberal, economically incomprehensible.
example: https://lausan.hk/

Fortunately this only describes a pretty small number of people

[Joohan]

Automation is not new, nor is it novel in any way. There is virtually no difference between robots replacing manufacturing jobs and man-powered machines destroying manufactures during the 19th century.

I would say there is a big difference. I would liken the coming years to that of the situation between horse and automobile. Automation isn't going to be opening up new avenue's of human labor - it's replacing the human aspect entirely. Human labor will become increasingly obsolete across more and more of the economy as automation advances. The car didn't open up new job opportunities for horses, it replaced them.

[UniversalCommons]

I am not into the space communism bit, a post scarcity society with a bottom up approach focused on direct ownership, intensive education, and participatory democracy would be much more livable than a UBI communist paradise. Something where you had citizens with a capital C who would not be afraid to set things right. That umbrella looks a lot better to me than the red star.

[South Odreria 2]

I am not into the space communism bit, a post scarcity society with a bottom up approach focused on direct ownership, intensive education, and participatory democracy would be much more livable than a UBI communist paradise. Something where you had citizens with a capital C who would not be afraid to set things right. That umbrella looks a lot better to me than the red star.

What do you mean by “intensive education”