NationStates

Zottistan wrote:

Joohan wrote:
Yes you've outlined the reason why they tactically failed. Someone tried pointing to the commune as a success... but it was destroyed in like 2 months.

I mean a revolutionary movement being put down by superior pressure from an outside power hardly amounts to a failure of the ideas of that revolutionary movement itself. It's incidental. The commune didn't fail of its own accord, as one might argue about the Soviet Union or China.

Duvniask wrote:It's the same old bitching about "cultural Marxism", reformulated anew.

Nah.
It's the same thing as the alt-right in terms of tactics, just for different ends.


Example:

A while back some Bluecheck crypto-Marxist asked Notch if he was willing to say "Fuck fascists".

Notch replied; "Fuck Communists And Fascists.".

Bluecheck crypto-Marxists absolutely lost their shit.

Hence:

The thing is only communists and those influenced by their idpol gaslighting techniques will think this is a big deal. He's essentially thrown out a statement akin to;
​
"Could you say fuck communism please?"
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"Fuck communism and nazism"
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And twitter erupts with a bunch of sieg heiling nutjobs apopleptic that he could dare do such a thing while normies are like; "Wow. Look, all the freaks are sieg heiling and saying how the holocaust has been greatly exagerrated".
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By saying "Fuck commies" too, the people freaking out are outing themselves as crypto-marxists who normal people shouldn't take seriously and should understand are trying to infiltrate societal institutions.
​
It's like if he said "Fuck Nazis and Pedophiles" and the Epstein crew flipped their lid over it. If he added "Fuck Nazis and Pedophiles" would there be this outrage?No. Because the people outraged over it are crypto-communists only pretending to make sincere arguments about how "He can't just focus on Nazis" when their real beef is with the fact he's shittalking their shitty ideology. But they can't openly defend it because they are crypto, so they resort to bad faith arguments and gaslighting techniques instead. They've done it for years now if you pay attention. Same behavior the far-right does with their crypto bollocks, except with the crypto-marxists its usually media and education that they've overrun as opposed to law enforcement.

If a Nazi comes up to you and asks you to denounce communism, would you do it without pointing out the dude is a Nazi just because they asked nicely?

Once you realize crypto-Marxists are actually about as common as crypto-fascists, you'll begin noticing who they are and how they are often responsible for a lot of the division and problems in modern society.

South Odreria 2 wrote:Gotta have to stick with Marxism as non-Marxist “leftists” are by and large pretty useless.

Marx was for the most part right about how the economy works.

Cisairse wrote:

Dominioan wrote:After WW2 was the closest we got to being the middle system, but the Cold War (and Reaganism) destroyed all the progress we made.

After WW2 we coopted a lot of socdem policies but America was never even remotely close to abandoning capitalism.

Duvniask wrote:

Nah.
It's the same thing as the alt-right in terms of tactics, just for different ends.


Example:

A while back some Bluecheck crypto-Marxist asked Notch if he was willing to say "Fuck fascists".

Notch replied; "Fuck Communists And Fascists.".

Bluecheck crypto-Marxists absolutely lost their shit.

Hence:



If a Nazi comes up to you and asks you to denounce communism, would you do it without pointing out the dude is a Nazi just because they asked nicely?

Once you realize crypto-Marxists are actually about as common as crypto-fascists, you'll begin noticing who they are and how they are often responsible for a lot of the division and problems in modern society.

Hurr durr, when I switch the words around you don't like it.

This is phenomenally, mind-meltingly stupid. Your entire line of spiel rests on the assumption that being a communist is equally as bad as being a Nazi. That's the only way your hypothetical reverse scenario would even be comparable to what actually went down.

Even more hysterical would be Notch saying "Fuck fascism and Liberalism". If people started losing their shit because Notch appeared to suggest liberal ideology was on par with fascism, then you'd be out there calling everyone crypto-liberals too, because they dare be provoked by such an absurd implication. As if you'd then go: "WELL WHAT IF A NAZI ASKED YOU TO DISMISS LIBERALISM, HUH, WOULD YOU THEN NOT COMMENT ON HIM BEING A NAZI?" No, because as it turns out, just switching the situation around doesn't make it equivalent.

It's really childish of you. Stop it.

Dominioan wrote:

Cisairse wrote:After WW2 we coopted a lot of socdem policies but America was never even remotely close to abandoning capitalism.

Well yeah that's the point. In my opinion, the best system is a regulated capitalist system (Scandinavian welfare state), and that was the closest we got. Maybe not close, but closesest.

Major-Tom wrote:

South Odreria 2 wrote:Gotta have to stick with Marxism as non-Marxist “leftists” are by and large pretty useless.

Marx was for the most part right about how the economy works.

Leftist infighting is a hell of a drug.

Ostroeuropa wrote:

Duvniask wrote:Hurr durr, when I switch the words around you don't like it.

This is phenomenally, mind-meltingly stupid. Your entire line of spiel rests on the assumption that being a communist is equally as bad as being a Nazi. That's the only way your hypothetical reverse scenario would even be comparable to what actually went down.

Even more hysterical would be Notch saying "Fuck fascism and Liberalism". If people started losing their shit because Notch appeared to suggest liberal ideology was on par with fascism, then you'd be out there calling everyone crypto-liberals too, because they dare be provoked by such an absurd implication. As if you'd then go: "WELL WHAT IF A NAZI ASKED YOU TO DISMISS LIBERALISM, HUH, WOULD YOU THEN NOT COMMENT ON HIM BEING A NAZI?" No, because as it turns out, just switching the situation around doesn't make it equivalent.

It's really childish of you. Stop it.

If Notch said "Fuck fascism and liberalism" I think many people would interpret that as an improvement on the standalone "Fuck fascism" for alluding to the fact liberalism is destructive and dangerous in a more surrepticious way that is often overlooked.

Similarly, "Fuck fascism and communism" addresses how communists are destructive and dangerous in a way that is often overlooked by a particular crowd.

Also, you're a communist.

ofcourse you're outraged by the comparison.

I guess I'd say it's like "Do you think White Lives Matter notch?"

"Yes, white lives matter, also black lives matter."

*immediate hysterics.*.

Everyone other than fascists is aware fascists suck. The danger of crypto-communists is overlooked.

• White lives matter; in addendum, Black lives matter (just as much) - both acceptable opinions, both regarded as being equally true (unless you're racist).
• Fuck fascism; in addendum, fuck communism (just as much) - only the former is acceptable, or at least the former is being trivialized by comparison with the latter.

South Odreria 2 wrote:

Major-Tom wrote:
Leftist infighting is a hell of a drug.

Is it really infighting if one group of people actually goes out and tries to accomplish stuff and another group sits around and calls them tankies?

Anti-marxist “leftist” people are overwhelmingly armchair revolutionaries.

Duvniask wrote:

South Odreria 2 wrote:Is it really infighting if one group of people actually goes out and tries to accomplish stuff and another group sits around and calls them tankies?

Anti-marxist “leftist” people are overwhelmingly armchair revolutionaries.

The problem being that what tankies actually accomplish, at gunpoint, is state bureaucratized capitalism draped in red bunting, often at great cost in human lives.

South Odreria 2 wrote:

Duvniask wrote:The problem being that what tankies actually accomplish, at gunpoint, is state bureaucratized capitalism draped in red bunting, often at great cost in human lives.

I’m not talking about actual tankies, I’m talking about the people anti-Marxists call tankies.

Duvniask wrote:

South Odreria 2 wrote:I’m not talking about actual tankies, I’m talking about the people anti-Marxists call tankies.

I was under the impression "tankie" really only was a word used in leftist circles, with people understanding that it meant the kind of "communists" who would send in the tanks to crush Hungary and Czechoslovakia for daring to demand more freedoms for themselves. Seems I was naive enough to think people understood what it means.

Duvniask wrote:

South Odreria 2 wrote:I’m not talking about actual tankies, I’m talking about the people anti-Marxists call tankies.

I was under the impression "tankie" really only was a word used in leftist circles, with people understanding that it meant the kind of "communists" who would send in the tanks to crush Hungary and Czechoslovakia for daring to demand more freedoms for themselves. Seems I was naive enough to think people understood what it means.

Major-Tom wrote:

South Odreria 2 wrote:Gotta have to stick with Marxism as non-Marxist “leftists” are by and large pretty useless.

Marx was for the most part right about how the economy works.

Leftist infighting is a hell of a drug.

Kubra wrote:

Major-Tom wrote:
Leftist infighting is a hell of a drug.

ehhh, in fairness most folks generally fell in line behind Marxism in terms of theory during the 20th century, even if they didn't get in with it politically. You know, they might believe in surplus value, but aren't hot on things like a vanguard party or saying mean things about Bakunin.
The folks who wholesale refused the lot either went center socdem or made hippie communes.

Cisairse wrote:

Kubra wrote: ehhh, in fairness most folks generally fell in line behind Marxism in terms of theory during the 20th century, even if they didn't get in with it politically. You know, they might believe in surplus value, but aren't hot on things like a vanguard party or saying mean things about Bakunin.
The folks who wholesale refused the lot either went center socdem or made hippie communes.

Yeah but even then you'll have people at each other's throats for supporting anarcho-syndacalist-communalism instead of syndo-anarchism with bookchin characteristics.

Of course the infighting is generally delegated to theoryspace. In praxis most leftists operate similarly enough that if you're wearing aviators you can't tell the difference.

Cisairse wrote:

Ansarre wrote:Marx can make his predictions all he wants. It the ideology he has helped forged, and all of its offshoots, that are the issue. Marxism is a threat to the liberal global order.

I mean, yeah. The liberal global order is really not working out.

Ansarre wrote:

Cisairse wrote:I mean, yeah. The liberal global order is really not working out.

Not really. We have the highest standards of living and development in the world. Everyone wants to live in liberal countries.

Cisairse wrote:

Ansarre wrote:Not really. We have the highest standards of living and development in the world. Everyone wants to live in liberal countries.

Just because liberal countries have the highest standards of living right now doesn't mean that liberal countries right now have the highest standards of living humanly possible.

In fact, in many ways, the standard of living in liberal countries right now is very poor.

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:

Stylan wrote:Really? Where's your evidence for that?

I'm willing to bet you don't actually have a source, and you just regurgitate what's fed to you on TV. Well that myth comes from the Black Book of Communism, which the authors themselves have said isn't accurate, as the editor raised the numbers drastically.

Or it comes from the Victims of Communism foundation, which counts people who die of coronavirus and literal Nazis killed by Red Army soldiers as "victims of communism."

Or you use the idea that "800 billion trillion people starved in the USSR and China," which is patently false. Not only that, even if it was, do you know how many people die in capitalist countries every year because of starvation?

It comes from the death tolls of the Holodomor, the Cultural Revolution, and every other heinous genocide, war, and massacre committed under a Red Flag.

Stop trying to rewrite history because it doesn't support your narrative. Communism is a con that has left over half the world in devastating poverty.

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:

Stylan wrote:Really? Where's your evidence for that?

I'm willing to bet you don't actually have a source, and you just regurgitate what's fed to you on TV. Well that myth comes from the Black Book of Communism, which the authors themselves have said isn't accurate, as the editor raised the numbers drastically.

Or it comes from the Victims of Communism foundation, which counts people who die of coronavirus and literal Nazis killed by Red Army soldiers as "victims of communism."

Or you use the idea that "800 billion trillion people starved in the USSR and China," which is patently false. Not only that, even if it was, do you know how many people die in capitalist countries every year because of starvation?

It comes from the death tolls of the Holodomor, the Cultural Revolution, and every other heinous genocide, war, and massacre committed under a Red Flag.

Stop trying to rewrite history because it doesn't support your narrative. Communism is a con that has left over half the world in devastating poverty.

Ansarre wrote:

Cisairse wrote:Just because liberal countries have the highest standards of living right now doesn't mean that liberal countries right now have the highest standards of living humanly possible.

In fact, in many ways, the standard of living in liberal countries right now is very poor.

Oh sorry, forgive me for not comparing them to reddit fan fictions of what luxury automated space gay communism would look like. As we all know, real communism™ would provide a utopia on earth!

Joohan wrote:

Stylan wrote:Homosexuality was legalized in the Soviet Union in 1917.

And then recriminalized just 16 years later, now with gulag time tagged on!

Women obtained the right to vote in the USSR in 1917.

That's good they managed to eventually begin feeding their people. The difference in this case, however, is that the United States never had a mass famine in the first place. They've had droughts, they've had year long dust storms, they've had mass exodus of the farmers from their fields ( all this in the same year mind you ) - but the United States has never had a famine, let alone one that killed millions of people...