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Region of Dwipantara
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Founded: Dec 12, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Region of Dwipantara » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:57 pm

Major-Tom wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Everyone has their flaws, but it does not detract from his overall genius.


I don't doubt that he's quite a smart guy, but even smart people are prone to bouts of erraticism and downright stupidity. It happens all the time. He's never really had anybody say "NO" to him before, and that's likely affected him in such a way that he can't process how idiotic his Hyperloop plans are, his nonsensical musings on Twitter, the lack of build quality and downright poor management model that plagues Tesla. They remain profitable solely by name recognition and good PR, and they were able to get profitable in the first place via tons of government subsidies, IE, heavy crony capitalism. I don't see you as a fan of that.

That said, Elon's space-related ventures have been quite successful, and I wish he'd just stay within that capacity, let other people assist him in managing Tesla (since it still is promising), and above everything else, treat his workers with dignity and shut the fuck up on Twitter.

The almost cult-like mythologization of Musk has been a key point for Tesla's marketing campaign, though. You don't see a hyped active fandom forming around Mitsubishi or Ford.
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Major-Tom
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Founded: Mar 09, 2016
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Major-Tom » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:59 pm

Region of Dwipantara wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:
I don't doubt that he's quite a smart guy, but even smart people are prone to bouts of erraticism and downright stupidity. It happens all the time. He's never really had anybody say "NO" to him before, and that's likely affected him in such a way that he can't process how idiotic his Hyperloop plans are, his nonsensical musings on Twitter, the lack of build quality and downright poor management model that plagues Tesla. They remain profitable solely by name recognition and good PR, and they were able to get profitable in the first place via tons of government subsidies, IE, heavy crony capitalism. I don't see you as a fan of that.

That said, Elon's space-related ventures have been quite successful, and I wish he'd just stay within that capacity, let other people assist him in managing Tesla (since it still is promising), and above everything else, treat his workers with dignity and shut the fuck up on Twitter.

The almost cult-like mythologization of Musk has been a key point for Tesla's marketing campaign, though. You don't see a hyped active fandom forming around Mitsubishi or Ford.


That's because Mitsubishi builds fucking shit engines nowadays, bring back the Lancer Evo..

Anyways, yes, it's brilliant marketing and PR. And even when Musk is acting controversially, acting erratically - it still puts his name in the headlines, and adds to his mystique of "tortured genius" or "brilliant but troubled businessman."

Gotta give some credit to Tesla's PR team, they can navigate Musk's neuroticism quite well. Certainly helps that in the minds of Americans, Tesla is still the name for mass-produced electric vehicles. Until someone really challenges that mantle, it's here to stay, despite subpar quality overall.
Last edited by Major-Tom on Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Auze
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Founded: Oct 31, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Auze » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:05 pm

Region of Dwipantara wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:
I don't doubt that he's quite a smart guy, but even smart people are prone to bouts of erraticism and downright stupidity. It happens all the time. He's never really had anybody say "NO" to him before, and that's likely affected him in such a way that he can't process how idiotic his Hyperloop plans are, his nonsensical musings on Twitter, the lack of build quality and downright poor management model that plagues Tesla. They remain profitable solely by name recognition and good PR, and they were able to get profitable in the first place via tons of government subsidies, IE, heavy crony capitalism. I don't see you as a fan of that.

That said, Elon's space-related ventures have been quite successful, and I wish he'd just stay within that capacity, let other people assist him in managing Tesla (since it still is promising), and above everything else, treat his workers with dignity and shut the fuck up on Twitter.

The almost cult-like mythologization of Musk has been a key point for Tesla's marketing campaign, though. You don't see a hyped active fandom forming around Mitsubishi or Ford.

To be fair, that probably has to do with Ford having been long established and Henry Ford being dead.
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Region of Dwipantara
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Posts: 628
Founded: Dec 12, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Region of Dwipantara » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:12 pm

Major-Tom wrote:
Region of Dwipantara wrote:The almost cult-like mythologization of Musk has been a key point for Tesla's marketing campaign, though. You don't see a hyped active fandom forming around Mitsubishi or Ford.


That's because Mitsubishi builds fucking shit engines nowadays, bring back the Lancer Evo..

Anyways, yes, it's brilliant marketing and PR. And even when Musk is acting controversially, acting erratically - it still puts his name in the headlines, and adds to his mystique of "tortured genius" or "brilliant but troubled businessman."

Gotta give some credit to Tesla's PR team, they can navigate Musk's neuroticism quite well. Certainly helps that in the minds of Americans, Tesla is still the name for mass-produced electric vehicles. Until someone really challenges that mantle, it's here to stay, despite subpar quality overall.

It is truly a perfect example of modern 21st century marketing. No longer do they have to buy a fuck ton of ad time from CNN. Instead, the whole situation led the consumers (or more accurately "participants") to actively market the products themselves, for free, because they are successfully brainwashed into the Muskdom genuinely like them. Even non-consumers joined. Memes are created, new culture established, heck I once watched a libertarian YouTube channel raising the issue about Tesla vs. car dealership laws to criticize government red tape, unknowingly promoting the Tesla brand in the process.
Last edited by Region of Dwipantara on Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Duvniask
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Posts: 4521
Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:13 pm

Region of Dwipantara wrote:
Duvniask wrote:Elon Musk was born into wealth. His ideas are also really dumb. He's a typical billionaire who would rather sink money into vanity projects than do anything useful with it. To suggest this asshole knows how to effectively allocate the resources of society is complete lunacy. I cannot fathom all these tech bros who worship him.

From an Optimistic Nihilism point of view, Musk's ideals makes perfect sense.

No they don't. The loop is a completely retarded idea that draws attention away from actually existing solutions to congestion and keeps us on the path of car dependency. It's "fucking magic".

What you see as "vanity projects" can also be seen as the obvious furtherment of human civilization.

Sending a car with a doll into space is the furtherment of human civilization, ok.

That is not to say nothing Musk has done (and keep in mind he's a businessman, not an inventor) has resulted in something good, but I would wager he is actually a superfluous element.

I mean, he did rekindled human's interest for space exploration, and significantly cut the cost for it, of which the government have spectacularly failed to do so.

No mention of why that is, however. Simply stating that "the government hasn't achieved anything" begs the question of what structurally leads to that being the case. Could it be underfunding? Could it be prioritization with missions rather than R&D? etc. etc.

This innovation-based industry might even directly benefit me too (a third world country citizen), as the Starlink may pave the way for the eventual realization of internet access everywhere.

That is well and good. It does nothing to dispel my argument that Elon Musk also wastes a lot of money on useless "fucking-magic" shit, because he's a tech bro with too much money to go around.

How about we as a society democratically decide how to allocate our resources towards socially useful ends? I'd take that over ELON MUSK IS SO EPIC HE SENDS A CAR TO SPACE XDDD.

Meanwhile, I fail to see how would a 19th century concept of labor can be applied to 21st century high productivity innovation economy. The old producer-consumer concept has even started to crack with the emergence of participatory economics.

Not sure what you think is so nonapplicable, considering that "labor" includes all forms physical and mental, even completely useless labor which is wasted. Labor is labor.
Last edited by Duvniask on Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kubra
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Posts: 12876
Founded: Apr 15, 2006
Libertarian Police State

Postby Kubra » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:56 pm

Duvniask wrote:
Kubra wrote: Now now, there's a middle ground here. It is quite rewarding to labour at, say, writing a paper or putting together a band or (I assume) discovering the principles of evolution. That labour might be stressful, but it is altogether rewarding.
Much less rewarding is, say, being that one kid in a british labour report back in the 1800's who was paid maybe a shilling a day at best to sit near a particular factory door and make sure it was closed after it was used. The shilling is nice, but the kid otherwise spends 12 hours a day basically becoming dumber. Fuck that kind of work, who cares how much it pays?

You're not really responding to me here. I said nothing about hard work necessarily being unrewarding (or not necessary at times). What's dumb is the fetishization of hard work for its own sake, when we could make everyone's lives better and level the playing field. Not providing basic foundational goods like healthcare because "people have to strive for it" is the dumbest shit.

I just found out I have elevated iron levels in my blood, for instance, and my dad is already diagnosed with haemochromatosis. Here is Northen Davincia thinking I have to suffer needlessly because life took a dump on me through no fault of my own. Through sheer un-luck, I would be made to "strive" in ways other people will not, because he thinks it wise to condemn people to damnation. It's basically a temper tantrum (masquerading as an ideology) about the fact that society has obligations to its members.
Aight, that's fair, I see what you mean.
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Kubra
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Founded: Apr 15, 2006
Libertarian Police State

Postby Kubra » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:58 pm

Major-Tom wrote:
Region of Dwipantara wrote:The almost cult-like mythologization of Musk has been a key point for Tesla's marketing campaign, though. You don't see a hyped active fandom forming around Mitsubishi or Ford.


That's because Mitsubishi builds fucking shit engines nowadays, bring back the Lancer Evo..

Anyways, yes, it's brilliant marketing and PR. And even when Musk is acting controversially, acting erratically - it still puts his name in the headlines, and adds to his mystique of "tortured genius" or "brilliant but troubled businessman."

Gotta give some credit to Tesla's PR team, they can navigate Musk's neuroticism quite well. Certainly helps that in the minds of Americans, Tesla is still the name for mass-produced electric vehicles. Until someone really challenges that mantle, it's here to stay, despite subpar quality overall.
Oh huh they really don'y make lan evo's any more
What the fuck, did Subaru win?
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Northern Davincia
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Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:34 pm

Duvniask wrote:-snip-

I am not without compassion. However, I am aware of the difference between helping your fellow man, and the Red Guard holding a gun behind my head and telling me to give everything to a bunch of freeloaders. The moral obligation imposed on us all has to be met freely and without force from the mob or the state. Otherwise, we reject the idea of freedom. If I recall, Marx was hardly the sort to care about duty-based morality (expertly demonstrated by his total disregard for his family and his leeching off Engels).
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Kubra
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Founded: Apr 15, 2006
Libertarian Police State

Postby Kubra » Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:38 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Duvniask wrote:-snip-

I am not without compassion. However, I am aware of the difference between helping your fellow man, and the Red Guard holding a gun behind my head and telling me to give everything to a bunch of freeloaders. The moral obligation imposed on us all has to be met freely and without force from the mob or the state. Otherwise, we reject the idea of freedom. If I recall, Marx was hardly the sort to care about duty-based morality (expertly demonstrated by his total disregard for his family and his leeching off Engels).
Marx was, um, a bit famous. As you can imagine, that fame was not quite the sort that tended to land one a good job. Engels would have been in the same boat had it not been for his family *really* wanting to cover for him.
Sure, he spent a good bit of coin on drink and tobacco, but if that's "complete disregard", I'd have to refer you to topics relating to the dissolution of the family in bourgeois society.
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Northern Davincia
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Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:36 pm

Kubra wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:I am not without compassion. However, I am aware of the difference between helping your fellow man, and the Red Guard holding a gun behind my head and telling me to give everything to a bunch of freeloaders. The moral obligation imposed on us all has to be met freely and without force from the mob or the state. Otherwise, we reject the idea of freedom. If I recall, Marx was hardly the sort to care about duty-based morality (expertly demonstrated by his total disregard for his family and his leeching off Engels).
Marx was, um, a bit famous. As you can imagine, that fame was not quite the sort that tended to land one a good job. Engels would have been in the same boat had it not been for his family *really* wanting to cover for him.
Sure, he spent a good bit of coin on drink and tobacco, but if that's "complete disregard", I'd have to refer you to topics relating to the dissolution of the family in bourgeois society.

Would you not label adultery and child neglect as complete disregard? I have never found Marxism to be friendly to the family structure.
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Kubra
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Founded: Apr 15, 2006
Libertarian Police State

Postby Kubra » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:36 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Kubra wrote: Marx was, um, a bit famous. As you can imagine, that fame was not quite the sort that tended to land one a good job. Engels would have been in the same boat had it not been for his family *really* wanting to cover for him.
Sure, he spent a good bit of coin on drink and tobacco, but if that's "complete disregard", I'd have to refer you to topics relating to the dissolution of the family in bourgeois society.

Would you not label adultery and child neglect as complete disregard? I have never found Marxism to be friendly to the family structure.
What is more normal than for poor families to have litters of children, knowing that only a few will reach adulthood?
As for adultery, I'll refer you to topics regarding the dissolution of the family in bourgeois society. Really now, soldiers of the great war marched off en masse to the whorehouse, and you're hung up over a bit of gossip?
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UniversalCommons
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Posts: 3868
Founded: Jan 24, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby UniversalCommons » Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:17 am

The family structure of having eight children and having to go to the church to make sure they are fed and getting a job through patronage to some nobleman or other elite. The red guard visited those who were patrons of the nobility and the church. There is patronage to the nobleman or patronage to the party. Neither is particularly good. One requires the oppression of the nobilty and the other requires the patronage of the party. The party eliminates the patronage of the church, destroys the nobility and creates a modern family structure of a few children and a family pair. It frees people from the drudgery of having six kids half of whom half won't survive. Neither is a particularly good. But, the option of the party for many is better than the landlord, the nobility and the church.

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Rojava Free State
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Posts: 19432
Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Rojava Free State » Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:55 am

Major-Tom wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Everyone has their flaws, but it does not detract from his overall genius.


I don't doubt that he's quite a smart guy, but even smart people are prone to bouts of erraticism and downright stupidity. It happens all the time. He's never really had anybody say "NO" to him before, and that's likely affected him in such a way that he can't process how idiotic his Hyperloop plans are, his nonsensical musings on Twitter, the lack of build quality and downright poor management model that plagues Tesla. They remain profitable solely by name recognition and good PR, and they were able to get profitable in the first place via tons of government subsidies, IE, heavy crony capitalism. I don't see you as a fan of that.

That said, Elon's space-related ventures have been quite successful, and I wish he'd just stay within that capacity, let other people assist him in managing Tesla (since it still is promising), and above everything else, treat his workers with dignity and shut the fuck up on Twitter.


It's no wonder he's friends with the equally delusional and arrogant Kanye West. The guy who made a song called "I am a God" and then when asked about it said "Everyone's saying 'who do you think you are.' I told you, a God."
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Duvniask
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Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:14 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Duvniask wrote:-snip-

I am not without compassion. However, I am aware of the difference between helping your fellow man, and the Red Guard holding a gun behind my head and telling me to give everything to a bunch of freeloaders.

A strawman that sounds like it was made by the stereotypical Republican Boomer. I don't know where you came up with this notion, but your toothbrush won't be taken away, lad.

The moral obligation imposed on us all has to be met freely and without force from the mob or the state. Otherwise, we reject the idea of freedom.

All societies rely on force by their nature. We happen to live in one where that force has a modicum of legitimacy due to its near-universal acknowledgement, a society where we apply that force in ways that are popularly deemed beneficial to achieve basic necessities and enable higher-order freedoms (a dead man has no need for the right to property, nor does he have need of the right to not be searched without a warrant, etc.). Voluntarism is a joke.

If I recall, Marx was hardly the sort to care about duty-based morality (expertly demonstrated by his total disregard for his family and his leeching off Engels).

Irrelevant. Also, I refer to Kubra's responses.
Last edited by Duvniask on Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Out of the ashes
The eagle rises still
Freedom is calling
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Feyrisshire
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Posts: 121
Founded: Nov 27, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Feyrisshire » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:23 pm

Duvniask wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:I am not without compassion. However, I am aware of the difference between helping your fellow man, and the Red Guard holding a gun behind my head and telling me to give everything to a bunch of freeloaders.

A strawman that sounds like it was made by the stereotypical Republican Boomer. I don't know where you came up with this notion, but your toothbrush won't be taken away, lad.


One who attacks with this strawman needs to know that Marxism distinguishes between personal property and private property (the means of production such as land and capital), which is a distinct concept.

The fact that land and the places of work are collectively owned by the workers has nothing to do with your personal ownership of your car, your PS5, your cat, your frog, your toothbrush.
Last edited by Feyrisshire on Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Duvniask
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Founded: Aug 30, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Duvniask » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:30 pm

Feyrisshire wrote:
Duvniask wrote:A strawman that sounds like it was made by the stereotypical Republican Boomer. I don't know where you came up with this notion, but your toothbrush won't be taken away, lad.


One who attacks with this strawman needs to know that Marxism distinguishes between personal property and private property (the means of production such as land and capital), which is a distinct concept.

The fact that land and the places of work are collectively owned by the workers has nothing to do with your personal ownership of your car, your PS5, your cat, your frog, your toothbrush.

It's not that he's unaware of that. At least I don't think so.

He's just gone so far off the deep end to the point where he thinks provision of foundational goods like healthcare, food (or food tokens to the same end), housing, education are tyranny. Never mind the provision and enforcement of property rights and contract rights, those are a-okay to the libertarian, because private property is something divine and infallible, for some reason.
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The eagle rises still
Freedom is calling
To all men who bend their will

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UniversalCommons
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Founded: Jan 24, 2016
Left-Leaning College State

Postby UniversalCommons » Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:03 pm

Capitalism does not require ownership. In fact it is possible to have a form of capitalism where everything you own is bought as a right of use. A contractual obligation where your software, your computer, your car, and your house have usage rights, but not ownership (a leasehold economy) for specific fixed amounts of time. The same thing could happen with communism, the state or the people effectively own everything and you are given usage rights to different things. Everything becomes a contract.

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Latvijas Otra Republika
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Founded: Feb 22, 2017
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Latvijas Otra Republika » Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:10 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:
Major-Tom wrote:
I don't doubt that he's quite a smart guy, but even smart people are prone to bouts of erraticism and downright stupidity. It happens all the time. He's never really had anybody say "NO" to him before, and that's likely affected him in such a way that he can't process how idiotic his Hyperloop plans are, his nonsensical musings on Twitter, the lack of build quality and downright poor management model that plagues Tesla. They remain profitable solely by name recognition and good PR, and they were able to get profitable in the first place via tons of government subsidies, IE, heavy crony capitalism. I don't see you as a fan of that.

That said, Elon's space-related ventures have been quite successful, and I wish he'd just stay within that capacity, let other people assist him in managing Tesla (since it still is promising), and above everything else, treat his workers with dignity and shut the fuck up on Twitter.


It's no wonder he's friends with the equally delusional and arrogant Kanye West. The guy who made a song called "I am a God" and then when asked about it said "Everyone's saying 'who do you think you are.' I told you, a God."


Kanye is the goat, YE is a musical god. Don’t be jealous, everyone can excel.
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The Sovereign Realist State
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Posts: 32
Founded: Jul 27, 2019
Moralistic Democracy

Postby The Sovereign Realist State » Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:18 am

Cisairse wrote:I honestly have no idea what you're asking me.


I want to be able to judge marxism as applied in practice.

Any examples of true marxism in the world or just ...in your head?

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Rojava Free State
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Posts: 19432
Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Rojava Free State » Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:24 am

Latvijas Otra Republika wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
It's no wonder he's friends with the equally delusional and arrogant Kanye West. The guy who made a song called "I am a God" and then when asked about it said "Everyone's saying 'who do you think you are.' I told you, a God."


Kanye is the goat, YE is a musical god. Don’t be jealous, everyone can excel.


Kanye was the GOAT. Then he dropped Yeezus and that's when things took a turn for the worse.
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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Kubra
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12876
Founded: Apr 15, 2006
Libertarian Police State

Postby Kubra » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:33 am

The Sovereign Realist State wrote:
Cisairse wrote:I honestly have no idea what you're asking me.


I want to be able to judge marxism as applied in practice.

Any examples of true marxism in the world or just ...in your head?
"True Marxism" is a silly term. If we're gonna be very specific about this shit, "true Marxism" is comprised of his own platform suggestions.
So I guess um apart from revolution we're gonna need to pay off any national debt and um get rid of indirect taxes.
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
-Comrade Posadas

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Cisairse
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9506
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:10 am

The Sovereign Realist State wrote:
Cisairse wrote:I honestly have no idea what you're asking me.


I want to be able to judge marxism as applied in practice.

Any examples of true marxism in the world or just ...in your head?

"Marxism" is not something you "apply"
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

Yeah, I support my troops
They wave black flags
They wear black masks

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The Sovereign Realist State
Secretary
 
Posts: 32
Founded: Jul 27, 2019
Moralistic Democracy

Postby The Sovereign Realist State » Mon Jul 06, 2020 7:30 pm

Cisairse wrote:"Marxism" is not something you "apply"


Oh? Are we not discussing a political philosophy?

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Cisairse
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9506
Founded: Mar 17, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cisairse » Mon Jul 06, 2020 8:58 pm

The Sovereign Realist State wrote:
Cisairse wrote:"Marxism" is not something you "apply"


Oh? Are we not discussing a political philosophy?

Marxism is, broadly, a critique of capitalism, and an economic theory. There are some parts of Marxism which discuss political philosophy, but they are quite vague (deliberately so).

More specifically, Marx wrote of aspects of communism, things that communism will and won't have, and in broad terms how the working class will get there. But Marx did not design political systems.

The bulk of Marxism is the economic/historical theories.
Now it's clear as a pillar of smoke
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

And broken Starbucks glass

Yeah, I support my troops
They wave black flags
They wear black masks

User avatar
The Sovereign Realist State
Secretary
 
Posts: 32
Founded: Jul 27, 2019
Moralistic Democracy

Postby The Sovereign Realist State » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:12 pm

Cisairse wrote:The bulk of Marxism is the economic/historical theories.


Fine but we run into the same problem: has it ever been implemented as an economic system?

How can I judge it?

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