The Remote Islands wrote:I know there's other stuff Marx wrote about his own beliefs, I just don't know all the titles of his books because, well, I'm not a communist.
All you really need to know is marxism has failed everytime its been tried.
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by Nevertopia » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:59 am
The Remote Islands wrote:I know there's other stuff Marx wrote about his own beliefs, I just don't know all the titles of his books because, well, I'm not a communist.
So the CCP won't let me be or let me be me so let me see, they tried to shut me down on CBC but it feels so empty without me.
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by Kubra » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:02 am
K but what about capital will make kids averse to communismThe Remote Islands wrote:I know there's other stuff Marx wrote about his own beliefs, I just don't know all the titles of his books because, well, I'm not a communist.
by Northern Davincia » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:40 am
Duvniask wrote:Northern Davincia wrote:Capitalism revolves around the individual deciding what is best for themselves. I do not pretend to know what is best for someone at any given time, unlike command economy planners, but the free market is largely benevolent in design because it lacks controls.
Capitalism revolves around the business cycle, which is (all too often) not the purview of individuals. When the economy crashes, you don't go pointing at Jane Doe that she's not been buying enough consumer goods or invested enough of her meager paycheck-to-paycheck savings or pointing at John Doe that he's not expanded his outfit's production sufficiently to employ all the willing job-seekers, etc. Of course, this does not mean the range of items affordable and available to your average Joe hasn't increased, but these don't appear on the market because he, as an individual, has decreed that they should. I get that what you ultimately mean by the above is that the individual can decide if he wants such and such an amount of flour or such and such an amount of tomato sauce, but such choices are also limited by the state of affairs which he exists in. It's the freedom to decide how to meet his consumption desires, given the choices and disposable income available (which, let's face it, is subject to a myriad of disparities).
To say that the free-market has "design" is a bit misleading, because it is not an intentional state of affairs; it can be steered, but as a supra-individual entity it has a mind of its own, so to speak - that is also the exact reason state capitalist "planning" in the Eastern Bloc failed, for all their attempts at subverting value and bringing it under the control of state actors. And command economies are not the purview of Marxism; when Marxists speak of false consciousness or not following one's interests, it is little different from being critical of the willing slave; they don't do it under some assumption that this means individuals can't decide what goods they want.
Also, lol at the supposed "benevolence" of the free market. I'm sure the externalities generated in the form of chemical factories dumping their waste appears oh so "benevolent" to those who have to drink poisoned water and risk exposure to toxic fumes, or that the
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."
by Luziyca » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:38 am
by Cisairse » Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:13 pm
The Remote Islands wrote:I know there's other stuff Marx wrote about his own beliefs, I just don't know all the titles of his books because, well, I'm not a communist.
by UniversalCommons » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:15 pm
by Cisairse » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:18 pm
UniversalCommons wrote:Control means own the means of production. In communism, the party owns the mean of production, and the worker works for the party. The party has never simply dissolved. There are still two classes. This is the fallacy of Marxism.
If the worker owned the means of the production, you would either have a partnership where everyone owned everything, a cooperative where the workers owned the company, or if there was a stock market ( a kind of joint share system where people who worked in a place, had ownership shares, not just a salary, family businesses, individual ownership, union ownership, or some kind of arrangement where the workers owned things outright without intermediaries. In addition, common assets like land and natural resources would probably be controlled by a long term sovereign arrangement where people who lived in the country would get a percentage share in the ownership or formally distributed to the citizens of the country (a kind of pool of sovereign wealth) . Pure salary work would probably be limited to government bureaucrats or salaried military officers. There would also be various kinds of arrangement to own machinery directly that produced things. A society based on direct ownership might not look like what you expected.
You own your house, you own a portion of the business you work in, you partake in a share of the common resources, you partake in the decisions of how things get automated. How you would define this situation would be different legally and ethically. It would neither be ownership, nor communal property. It might be closer to a sharing economy with rights of use for everyone partaking in it. Again in this state there is no party or bourgeoise, there are only citizens.
There would be no party, just a group of people who owned everything in a common legal arrangement. The party would have disappeared in the end state. Turning this into a practical state would be very different than what Marx originally thought. What would it mean to "own" the means of production in a modern state where there were universal common definitions of property. The market does not disappear, it becomes regulated or simulated to a high degree. People are expected to have interests self reliance.
by Nevertopia » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:20 pm
So the CCP won't let me be or let me be me so let me see, they tried to shut me down on CBC but it feels so empty without me.
| Civilization Index: Class 9.28 Tier 7: Stellar Settler | Level 7: Wonderful Wizard | Type 7: Astro Ambassador This nation's overview is the primary canon. For more information use NS stats. |
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by Cisairse » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:22 pm
by Nevertopia » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:25 pm
So the CCP won't let me be or let me be me so let me see, they tried to shut me down on CBC but it feels so empty without me.
| Civilization Index: Class 9.28 Tier 7: Stellar Settler | Level 7: Wonderful Wizard | Type 7: Astro Ambassador This nation's overview is the primary canon. For more information use NS stats. |
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by Cisairse » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:29 pm
Nevertopia wrote:Cisairse wrote:Private property means private (ie individual) ownership of the means of production. If the workers (communally) own the means of production, there is no private property, only communal property.
oic, so thats why marxism fails. It has no checks and balances for corruption or rewarding effort. Everything is everybody else's problem right?
by Nevertopia » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:30 pm
Cisairse wrote:Nevertopia wrote:oic, so thats why marxism fails. It has no checks and balances for corruption or rewarding effort. Everything is everybody else's problem right?
Marx didn't spend a lot of time discussing how the post-seizure society would work or look like. Plenty of other authors have, though, and there's endless disagreement.
One of the more common ideas is to democratize all of society by having workers elect their managers, similar to how republics solved the same legitimacy issue when they replaced monarchies by democratizing the powers that be.
In fact, you can draw a lot of parallels between the transition from absolutism (where states were considered the private property of a monarch) to republics (where states are considered a public manner deriving legitimacy from the people) with the transition from capitalism (where the means of production consists mostly of private property) to socialism (where the means of production are publicly owned).
So the CCP won't let me be or let me be me so let me see, they tried to shut me down on CBC but it feels so empty without me.
| Civilization Index: Class 9.28 Tier 7: Stellar Settler | Level 7: Wonderful Wizard | Type 7: Astro Ambassador This nation's overview is the primary canon. For more information use NS stats. |
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by Cisairse » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:31 pm
Nevertopia wrote:Cisairse wrote:Marx didn't spend a lot of time discussing how the post-seizure society would work or look like. Plenty of other authors have, though, and there's endless disagreement.
One of the more common ideas is to democratize all of society by having workers elect their managers, similar to how republics solved the same legitimacy issue when they replaced monarchies by democratizing the powers that be.
In fact, you can draw a lot of parallels between the transition from absolutism (where states were considered the private property of a monarch) to republics (where states are considered a public manner deriving legitimacy from the people) with the transition from capitalism (where the means of production consists mostly of private property) to socialism (where the means of production are publicly owned).
so it is capitalist democracy.
by The Sovereign Realist State » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:31 pm
Cisairse wrote:To answer my own questions:
- I'm weary of modern socialists who claim that Marxism is "class reductionist," because I believe that Marx was correct to correlate all other oppressive criterion to class.
- I haven't read anything that shows Marxism—Leninism is revisionist per se, but many supposedly ML states other than the Soviet Union corrupted Marxism to suit their anticolonial agenda and thus became highly revisionist in their actual operation.
- I believe that Marx's theories have only become more true in society since he began to publish his works.
by Nevertopia » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:32 pm
So the CCP won't let me be or let me be me so let me see, they tried to shut me down on CBC but it feels so empty without me.
| Civilization Index: Class 9.28 Tier 7: Stellar Settler | Level 7: Wonderful Wizard | Type 7: Astro Ambassador This nation's overview is the primary canon. For more information use NS stats. |
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by Cisairse » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:42 pm
The Sovereign Realist State wrote:Cisairse wrote:To answer my own questions:
- I'm weary of modern socialists who claim that Marxism is "class reductionist," because I believe that Marx was correct to correlate all other oppressive criterion to class.
- I haven't read anything that shows Marxism—Leninism is revisionist per se, but many supposedly ML states other than the Soviet Union corrupted Marxism to suit their anticolonial agenda and thus became highly revisionist in their actual operation.
- I believe that Marx's theories have only become more true in society since he began to publish his works.
If you believe the USSR was the only true political implementation of marxism...
...why did it fail?
...Why was it better than many other non-marxist regimes when living conditions and civil liberties were worse?
by Cisairse » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:46 pm
Nevertopia wrote:Cisairse wrote:No, it is not capitalism. Do you know what capitalism is?
E: Actually did you even read my post?
An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development occurs through the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.
by UniversalCommons » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:59 pm
by The Sovereign Realist State » Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:01 pm
Cisairse wrote:I don't believe that, because it would be a very silly thing to think really.
Marx left a ton of "blanks" in his "script" for the future of the workingmen. ML is one way to fill in the blanks. There are plenty of other ways.
by Nevertopia » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:39 pm
Cisairse wrote:Nevertopia wrote:
An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development occurs through the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.
Right. In a socialist society, there is no capital accumulation. That's the key difference.
In fact most of the other "details" of the differences between socialism and capitalism derive chiefly from the fact that there is no capital accumulation in socialism.
Further, the means of production are not privately or corporately owned in socialism.
So the CCP won't let me be or let me be me so let me see, they tried to shut me down on CBC but it feels so empty without me.
| Civilization Index: Class 9.28 Tier 7: Stellar Settler | Level 7: Wonderful Wizard | Type 7: Astro Ambassador This nation's overview is the primary canon. For more information use NS stats. |
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by Alcala-Cordel » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:43 pm
Nevertopia wrote:Cisairse wrote:Private property means private (ie individual) ownership of the means of production. If the workers (communally) own the means of production, there is no private property, only communal property.
oic, so thats why marxism fails. It has no checks and balances for corruption or rewarding effort. Everything is everybody else's problem right?
by Nevertopia » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:45 pm
So the CCP won't let me be or let me be me so let me see, they tried to shut me down on CBC but it feels so empty without me.
| Civilization Index: Class 9.28 Tier 7: Stellar Settler | Level 7: Wonderful Wizard | Type 7: Astro Ambassador This nation's overview is the primary canon. For more information use NS stats. |
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by Alcala-Cordel » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:47 pm
by Nevertopia » Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:51 pm
So the CCP won't let me be or let me be me so let me see, they tried to shut me down on CBC but it feels so empty without me.
| Civilization Index: Class 9.28 Tier 7: Stellar Settler | Level 7: Wonderful Wizard | Type 7: Astro Ambassador This nation's overview is the primary canon. For more information use NS stats. |
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