Washington & Jefferson Statue Get Pulled Down

[Alcala-Cordel]

That was inadvertent.

It still effected several revolutions. The French Revolutionaries pointed to the US revolution when their own occurred.

If Marx and Debs while racists they are should get statues for the things they stood for then shouldn’t the founding fathers also get statues for the same reason as the ideals of the American revolution had far reaching consequences?

Marx and Debs were had a deliberate goal in mind, whereas the Founding Fathers themselves were against leftist movements.

[Thermodolia]

A slaveowner is a slaveowner is a slaveowner.

Can a man not atone for his sins?

Unless they are libertarian socialist or people who the same idolize no.

Also how dare you bring religion into this

[The Two Jerseys]

No true scotsman I'm sure.

The actions of people like Stalin directly contradict the the ideals of communism

Yet Stalin wouldn't be in power if Marx didn't write a silly book that inspired Lenin to seize power, so...

Butterfly!

[Alcala-Cordel]

A slaveowner is a slaveowner is a slaveowner.

Can a man not atone for his sins?

Not that sin.

I already addressed the fact that communism hasn't killed anyone. Go dig up that post.

People claiming to be communists have killed people, though.

North Korea claims to be democratic too, that doesn't mean that democracy is to blame for the actions of the Kim family or that N.K. is democratic at all.

[Xmara]

It still effected several revolutions. The French Revolutionaries pointed to the US revolution when their own occurred.

If Marx and Debs while racists they are should get statues for the things they stood for then shouldn’t the founding fathers also get statues for the same reason as the ideals of the American revolution had far reaching consequences?

Marx and Debs were had a deliberate goal in mind, whereas the Founding Fathers themselves were against leftist movements.

The Founding Fathers had a goal in mind too

[Alcala-Cordel]

The actions of people like Stalin directly contradict the the ideals of communism

Yet Stalin wouldn't be in power if Marx didn't write a silly book that inspired Lenin to seize power, so...

Butterfly!

I already addressed that. Just like the Founding Fathers shouldn't be given statues because they inadvertently caused the rise of leftism, Marx shouldn't be blamed for the fact that someone claiming to represent his ideals would do terrible things.

Marx and Debs were had a deliberate goal in mind, whereas the Founding Fathers themselves were against leftist movements.

The Founding Fathers had a goal in mind too

They didn't have a good goal though

[Thermodolia]

It still effected several revolutions. The French Revolutionaries pointed to the US revolution when their own occurred.

If Marx and Debs while racists they are should get statues for the things they stood for then shouldn’t the founding fathers also get statues for the same reason as the ideals of the American revolution had far reaching consequences?

Marx and Debs were had a deliberate goal in mind, whereas the Founding Fathers themselves were against leftist movements.

First off you can’t claim that they where against something that didn’t come about until after the French Revolution. Yes the French Revolution is where the left-right split came from because those who had left wing ideologies sat on the left of the National Assembly while those who had right wing ideologies sat on the right.

Second at the time the idea of republicanism especially of the type where the people choose their leaders was most definitely a leftist idea.

If you told someone in the monarchies of old that the people should choose their leaders you would have been branded a left wing traitor. The monarchy is some of the most right wing ideologies one can have and being against it was at the time very much a left wing thing.

[Alcala-Cordel]

Marx and Debs were had a deliberate goal in mind, whereas the Founding Fathers themselves were against leftist movements.

First off you can’t claim that they where against something that didn’t come about until after the French Revolution. Yes the French Revolution is where the left-right split came from because those who had left wing ideologies sat on the left of the National Assembly while those who had right wing ideologies sat on the right.

Second at the time the idea of republicanism especially of the type where the people choose their leaders was most definitely a leftist idea.

If you told someone in the monarchies of old that the people should choose their leaders you would have been branded a left wing traitor. The monarchy is some of the most right wing ideologies one can have and being against it was at the time very much a left wing thing.

The status quo has changed since monarchies, republicanism in America is not progress anymore.

I've been on here in a while and I'll be back soon since I have nothing to do, but I have to do something irl so I'm gonna go offline for a bit. Thanks for debating with me, it's been fun and I'll be back soon

[Thermodolia]

Yet Stalin wouldn't be in power if Marx didn't write a silly book that inspired Lenin to seize power, so...

Butterfly!

I already addressed that. Just like the Founding Fathers shouldn't be given statues because they inadvertently caused the rise of leftism, Marx shouldn't be blamed for the fact that someone claiming to represent his ideals would do terrible things.

The Founding Fathers had a goal in mind too

They didn't have a good goal though

So the people ruling themselves and not having a monarch placed over them isn’t a good goal?

[Alcala-Cordel]

I already addressed that. Just like the Founding Fathers shouldn't be given statues because they inadvertently caused the rise of leftism, Marx shouldn't be blamed for the fact that someone claiming to represent his ideals would do terrible things.


They didn't have a good goal though

So the people ruling themselves and not having a monarch placed over them isn’t a good goal?

Remember the whole "evil vs worse evil" thing from earlier?

[Xmara]

I already addressed that. Just like the Founding Fathers shouldn't be given statues because they inadvertently caused the rise of leftism, Marx shouldn't be blamed for the fact that someone claiming to represent his ideals would do terrible things.


They didn't have a good goal though

So the people ruling themselves and not having a monarch placed over them isn’t a good goal?

Apparently it’s not a good goal if it doesn’t involve communism

[Thermodolia]

First off you can’t claim that they where against something that didn’t come about until after the French Revolution. Yes the French Revolution is where the left-right split came from because those who had left wing ideologies sat on the left of the National Assembly while those who had right wing ideologies sat on the right.

Second at the time the idea of republicanism especially of the type where the people choose their leaders was most definitely a leftist idea.

If you told someone in the monarchies of old that the people should choose their leaders you would have been branded a left wing traitor. The monarchy is some of the most right wing ideologies one can have and being against it was at the time very much a left wing thing.

The status quo has changed since monarchies, republicanism in America is not progress anymore.

But if you hand wave away the racism of one group as product of their time so they can have statues in your world, you can’t say that those who where considered leftists for their time can’t have a statue because they aren’t considered leftists now.

Why is there such hypocrisy? Why are you contradicting yourself so much?

[Northern Davincia]

Can a man not atone for his sins?

Not that sin.

People claiming to be communists have killed people, though.

North Korea claims to be democratic too, that doesn't mean that democracy is to blame for the actions of the Kim family or that N.K. is democratic at all.

Washington atoned for his sin by setting his slaves free. That warrants forgiveness.

For some reason, the number of authoritarian self-professed communists far outnumber your little band of perfect anarchists, and similarly, most democrats are not murderous. An ideology must be deeply flawed if a majority of people get it wrong most of the time.

[Thermodolia]

So the people ruling themselves and not having a monarch placed over them isn’t a good goal?

Remember the whole "evil vs worse evil" thing from earlier?

But the people ruling over themselves is not evil and is what communism professes to attain.

You can’t say that one is bad while the other is good when they both have the same goal of rule by the people

[The Two Jerseys]

Not that sin.

North Korea claims to be democratic too, that doesn't mean that democracy is to blame for the actions of the Kim family or that N.K. is democratic at all.

Washington atoned for his sin by setting his slaves free. That warrants forgiveness.

For some reason, the number of authoritarian self-professed communists far outnumber your little band of perfect anarchists, and similarly, most democrats are not murderous. An ideology must be deeply flawed if a majority of people get it wrong most of the time.

Sorry, no forgiveness for Washington. Anyone who hasn't accepted Karl Marx as their Lord and Savior retains the stain of original sin.

[Alcala-Cordel]

So the people ruling themselves and not having a monarch placed over them isn’t a good goal?

Apparently it’s not a good goal if it doesn’t involve communism

Pretty much

[Alcala-Cordel]

Not that sin.

North Korea claims to be democratic too, that doesn't mean that democracy is to blame for the actions of the Kim family or that N.K. is democratic at all.

Washington atoned for his sin by setting his slaves free. That warrants forgiveness.

For some reason, the number of authoritarian self-professed communists far outnumber your little band of perfect anarchists, and similarly, most democrats are not murderous. An ideology must be deeply flawed if a majority of people get it wrong most of the time.

He still had slaves until he couldn't use them anymore, that does not warrant forgiveness.

[Alcala-Cordel]

So I've returned for a minute to make this spectrum that shows how much I like or dislike the idea of making certain things into idols


What I put on the left I view as good, the right is bad. Forgot to add confederates, just group them with fascists

Sorry for tripleposting

[No State Here]

It still effected several revolutions. The French Revolutionaries pointed to the US revolution when their own occurred.

If Marx and Debs while racists they are should get statues for the things they stood for then shouldn’t the founding fathers also get statues for the same reason as the ideals of the American revolution had far reaching consequences?

Marx and Debs were had a deliberate goal in mind, whereas the Founding Fathers themselves were against leftist movements.

Left and right wasn’t a thing during the time of the American revolution, the trend at the time was liberalism vs absolutism, and republicanism vs. monarchism

[Alcala-Cordel]

Marx and Debs were had a deliberate goal in mind, whereas the Founding Fathers themselves were against leftist movements.

Left and right wasn’t a thing during the time of the American revolution, the trend at the time was liberalism vs absolutism, and republicanism vs. monarchism

Yeah, there were different terms for it at the time

[Xmara]

So I've returned for a minute to make this spectrum that shows how much I like or dislike the idea of making certain things into idols

(Image)
What I put on the left I view as good, the right is bad. Forgot to add confederates, just group them with fascists

Sorry for tripleposting

That's a rather black and white way of looking at the world

[The Emerald Legion]

Left and right wasn’t a thing during the time of the American revolution, the trend at the time was liberalism vs absolutism, and republicanism vs. monarchism

Yeah, there were different terms for it at the time

No. They were outright different concepts. The idea that there are just different terms for the same thing is nothing more than Marxists attempt to whitewash history.

[Alcala-Cordel]

So I've returned for a minute to make this spectrum that shows how much I like or dislike the idea of making certain things into idols

(Image)
What I put on the left I view as good, the right is bad. Forgot to add confederates, just group them with fascists

Sorry for tripleposting

That's a rather black and white way of looking at the world

I mean I could make a 3D graph that goes in depth but this is enough for you to get the idea of whether I like something or not

Yeah, there were different terms for it at the time

No. They were outright different concepts. The idea that there are just different terms for the same thing is nothing more than Marxists attempt to whitewash history.

No, it was a different time but each faction had similar motives to those of today

[The Lone Alliance]

It still effected several revolutions. The French Revolutionaries pointed to the US revolution when their own occurred.

If Marx and Debs while racists they are should get statues for the things they stood for then shouldn’t the founding fathers also get statues for the same reason as the ideals of the American revolution had far reaching consequences?

Marx and Debs were had a deliberate goal in mind, whereas the Founding Fathers themselves were against leftist movements.

Not really, if you go by modern theory, the Federalist founding fathers were right leaning while many of the "Democratic Republican" founding fathers were rather leftist for their time period.

Hell one vision the Democratic Republicans had in the early US, partly because of Jefferson and people like him was a vision of a vast US of nothing but family owned farms, where every citizen fully owned the fruits of their labor and was given enough land to live and prosper, with the government's only job being to protect this nation of farmers from outside threats.

Outside of the merchant class which were still intact from before the Revolution, this new vision of the US would be borderline classless.

Such an idea was radical even back then, too radical, the merchant class and the Plantation owners strongly resisted it and thus it was never allowed to come to past.

Really there were quite a few things the US did after the Revolution that were outright Marxist, land was seized from the rich and given to the poor without compensation, a multitude of major reforms and strives towards equality were given and the wheels of progress had spun greatly....

However, this massive progress led to a rise of reactionaries, who responded and eventually drove the wheels of progress to a halt because it threatened their economic interests. Partly because the excesses of the French Revolution dampened Revolutionary fervor in the US.

[Greed and Death]

That was inadvertent.

It still effected several revolutions. The French Revolutionaries pointed to the US revolution when their own occurred.

If Marx and Debs while racists they are should get statues for the things they stood for then shouldn’t the founding fathers also get statues for the same reason as the ideals of the American revolution had far reaching consequences?

Fairly certain Marx still has statues in Russia. All Eugene Debs did was create a union that got beat up by the local militia more times than any other union before or since.