Washington & Jefferson Statue Get Pulled Down

[Alcala-Cordel]

Also the Zapatistas aren't communist, and have not achieved a communist society either. Nobody has achieved a communist society.

It's not orthodox Marxist, but it's definitely (anarcho- to a degree) communist. Someone clearly hasn't read theory.

They're not socialist either, they're tranitionary states that got hijacked and made state-capitalist by powerhungry opportunists. Marx also went back on the need for that later in his life.

State capitalism doesn't exist, friend. Dictatorship of the proletariat is not going to be the libertarian entity you wish it to be.

Just a gentle question on what these have to do with statues falling down.

Replacing statues of great men with commies is a bad proposal.

State capitalism does exist, and communism in its true form does as well. Also, do you seriously consider the slaveowners and rapists some call "founding fathers" to be great?

[Salus Maior]

Also the Zapatistas aren't communist, and have not achieved a communist society either. Nobody has achieved a communist society.

It's not orthodox Marxist, but it's definitely (anarcho- to a degree) communist. Someone clearly hasn't read theory.

In a communist society you have to pay out of pocket for your meds?

[Kowani]

Perhaps we should get back on track.

[Northern Davincia]

State capitalism doesn't exist, friend. Dictatorship of the proletariat is not going to be the libertarian entity you wish it to be.

Replacing statues of great men with commies is a bad proposal.

State capitalism does exist, and communism in its true form does as well. Also, do you seriously consider the slaveowners and rapists some call "founding fathers" to be great?

You use "rapist" plurally, yet Jefferson is the only person that fits the bill of being a rapist, slave-owner, and Founding Father. But yes, I'd consider the Founding Fathers at large to be great men who were intellectual giants, people who risked their lives for the cause of liberty. Greatness is not necessarily marred by immorality.

For instance, Alexander the Great and Constantine the Great deserve their titles because they rose to the occasion and excelled in their fields.

State capitalism, meanwhile, cannot exist because capitalism must have free trade and private property rights. The Soviet Union and PRC lacked both.

[Thermodolia]

They should all end up like the first one.

Why? Life was a nightmare in all those places before the revolutions, and the surviving regions both have popular support. Besides, people generally don't like it when other countries try to impose their will on them against their own wills.

Because libertarianism can’t govern. It will always fail.

[Thermodolia]

Also the Zapatistas aren't communist, and have not achieved a communist society either. Nobody has achieved a communist society.

It's not orthodox Marxist, but it's definitely (anarcho- to a degree) communist. Someone clearly hasn't read theory.

State capitalism doesn't exist, friend. Dictatorship of the proletariat is not going to be the libertarian entity you wish it to be.

Replacing statues of great men with commies is a bad proposal.

State capitalism does exist, and communism in its true form does as well. Also, do you seriously consider the slaveowners and rapists some call "founding fathers" to be great?

Yes and they should have statues to them.

[Thermodolia]

State capitalism does exist, and communism in its true form does as well. Also, do you seriously consider the slaveowners and rapists some call "founding fathers" to be great?

You use "rapist" plurally, yet Jefferson is the only person that fits the bill of being a rapist, slave-owner, and Founding Father. But yes, I'd consider the Founding Fathers at large to be great men who were intellectual giants, people who risked their lives for the cause of liberty. Greatness is not necessarily marred by immorality.

For instance, Alexander the Great and Constantine the Great deserve their titles because they rose to the occasion and excelled in their fields.

State capitalism, meanwhile, cannot exist because capitalism must have free trade and private property rights. The Soviet Union and PRC lacked both.

This is as stupid a definition of capitalism as the idea that communism is possible

[Alcala-Cordel]

It's not orthodox Marxist, but it's definitely (anarcho- to a degree) communist. Someone clearly hasn't read theory.

In a communist society you have to pay out of pocket for your meds?

They're not developed enough to make their own, so for now they have no choice.

State capitalism does exist, and communism in its true form does as well. Also, do you seriously consider the slaveowners and rapists some call "founding fathers" to be great?

You use "rapist" plurally, yet Jefferson is the only person that fits the bill of being a rapist, slave-owner, and Founding Father. But yes, I'd consider the Founding Fathers at large to be great men who were intellectual giants, people who risked their lives for the cause of liberty. Greatness is not necessarily marred by immorality.

For instance, Alexander the Great and Constantine the Great deserve their titles because they rose to the occasion and excelled in their fields.

State capitalism, meanwhile, cannot exist because capitalism must have free trade and private property rights. The Soviet Union and PRC lacked both.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... capitalism

That's the difference between state capitalism and orthodox capitalism. Both exist.

The Founding Fathers were all racists, slaveowners, or apathetic. Some were just worse than others.

[Northern Davincia]

You use "rapist" plurally, yet Jefferson is the only person that fits the bill of being a rapist, slave-owner, and Founding Father. But yes, I'd consider the Founding Fathers at large to be great men who were intellectual giants, people who risked their lives for the cause of liberty. Greatness is not necessarily marred by immorality.

For instance, Alexander the Great and Constantine the Great deserve their titles because they rose to the occasion and excelled in their fields.

State capitalism, meanwhile, cannot exist because capitalism must have free trade and private property rights. The Soviet Union and PRC lacked both.

This is as stupid a definition of capitalism as the idea that communism is possible

I am not defining capitalism, merely providing necessary traits for it to have.

[Salus Maior]

In a communist society you have to pay out of pocket for your meds?

They're not developed enough to make their own, so for now they have no choice.

So then they're not a communist society.

[Pangurstan]

Perhaps we should get back on track.

Statues of the founding fathers are ok as long as they talk about the bad aspects of them in addition to the good things they did.

[Thermodolia]

This is as stupid a definition of capitalism as the idea that communism is possible

I am not defining capitalism, merely providing necessary traits for it to have.

And your definition of such traits is silly.

[Northern Davincia]

Perhaps we should get back on track.

Very well; Washington's statue should remain because he is the most perfect man I can mentally envision.

[Alcala-Cordel]

They're not developed enough to make their own, so for now they have no choice.

So then they're not a communist society.

They're communist to the best extent they can be. No society will fit 100% under one neat label, but the Zapatistas mostly fit.

[Thermodolia]

Perhaps we should get back on track.

Yes. Statues of confederates are bad, statues of the founding fathers are good. Commies don’t get statues unless on private property

[Thermodolia]

In a communist society you have to pay out of pocket for your meds?

They're not developed enough to make their own, so for now they have no choice.

You use "rapist" plurally, yet Jefferson is the only person that fits the bill of being a rapist, slave-owner, and Founding Father. But yes, I'd consider the Founding Fathers at large to be great men who were intellectual giants, people who risked their lives for the cause of liberty. Greatness is not necessarily marred by immorality.

For instance, Alexander the Great and Constantine the Great deserve their titles because they rose to the occasion and excelled in their fields.

State capitalism, meanwhile, cannot exist because capitalism must have free trade and private property rights. The Soviet Union and PRC lacked both.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... capitalism

That's the difference between state capitalism and orthodox capitalism. Both exist.

The Founding Fathers were all racists, slaveowners, or apathetic. Some were just worse than others.

Marx was also a racist. As was Debs. Yet they both deserve statues in your opinion. Maybe it’s not the racism you care about but the fact that you hate the founding fathers but don’t want to admit it

[Alcala-Cordel]

Very well; Washington's statue should remain because he is the most perfect man I can mentally envision.

You must have a low standard if you consider a slaveowner to be anywhere near perfect.

[Alcala-Cordel]

They're not developed enough to make their own, so for now they have no choice.


https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... capitalism

That's the difference between state capitalism and orthodox capitalism. Both exist.

The Founding Fathers were all racists, slaveowners, or apathetic. Some were just worse than others.

Marx was also a racist. As was Debs. Yet they both deserve statues in your opinion. Maybe it’s not the racism you care about but the fact that you hate the founding fathers but don’t want to admit it

Products of their time, but they stood for something good. I'm not hiding the fact that I hate the Founding Fathers.

[Salus Maior]

So then they're not a communist society.

They're communist to the best extent they can be. No society will fit 100% under one neat label, but the Zapatistas mostly fit.

Which means they haven't achieved true communism.

[Salus Maior]

Products of their time, but they stood for something good.

Why doesn't that also apply to the Founding Fathers as well?

[Alcala-Cordel]

They're communist to the best extent they can be. No society will fit 100% under one neat label, but the Zapatistas mostly fit.

Which means they haven't achieved true communism.

They've achieved true communism, not full communism.

Products of their time, but they stood for something good.

Why doesn't that also apply to the Founding Fathers as well?

No, emphasis on "stood for something good".

[Xmara]

Marx was also a racist. As was Debs. Yet they both deserve statues in your opinion. Maybe it’s not the racism you care about but the fact that you hate the founding fathers but don’t want to admit it

Products of their time, but they stood for something good. I'm not hiding the fact that I hate the Founding Fathers.

The same can be argued for the Founding Fathers

[Salus Maior]

Very well; Washington's statue should remain because he is the most perfect man I can mentally envision.

You must have a low standard if you consider a slaveowner to be anywhere near perfect.

A slaveowner who treated his slaves well and then freed them.

[Pangurstan]

They're not developed enough to make their own, so for now they have no choice.


https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... capitalism

That's the difference between state capitalism and orthodox capitalism. Both exist.

The Founding Fathers were all racists, slaveowners, or apathetic. Some were just worse than others.

Marx was also a racist. As was Debs. Yet they both deserve statues in your opinion. Maybe it’s not the racism you care about but the fact that you hate the founding fathers but don’t want to admit it

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2012/08/lincoln-and-marx

[Thermodolia]

Marx was also a racist. As was Debs. Yet they both deserve statues in your opinion. Maybe it’s not the racism you care about but the fact that you hate the founding fathers but don’t want to admit it

Products of their time, but they stood for something good. I'm not hiding the fact that I hate the Founding Fathers.

Can it not be said that the founding fathers where also products of their time? But that they stood for something good?

You can’t hand wave away racism that easily