Washington & Jefferson Statue Get Pulled Down

[Stylan]

good

[Ifreann]

Maybe if you define resistance strictly as "that which results in an independent nation". But if that is the point...well, so what?

"So what?" The foundation of the United States as one of the first modern democracies changed literally the entire world. I don't see how you could ask that.

I'm not questioning the historical significance, I'm questioning the relevance of that point to this conversation.

So that he could hunt them.

No, so he could preserve the land. He hunted, sure, but his main priority for all of those was protecting the environment and the land.

"To waste, to destroy, our natural resources, to skin and exhaust the land instead of using it so as to increase its usefulness, will result in undermining in the days of our children the very prosperity which we ought by right to hand down to them amplified and developed."

"The nation behaves well if it treats the natural resources as assets which it must turn over to the next generation increased, and not impaired, in value."

"Conservation means development as much as it does protection. I recognize the right and duty of this generation to develop and use the natural resources of our land; but I do not recognize the right to waste them, or to rob, by wasteful use, the generations that come after us. I ask nothing of the nation except that it so behave as each farmer here behaves with reference to his own children. That farmer is a poor creature who skins the land and leaves it worthless to his children. The farmer is a good farmer who, having enabled the land to support himself and to provide for the education of his children, leaves it to them a little better than he found it himself. I believe the same thing of a nation."

"The idea that our natural resources were inexhaustible still obtained, and there was as yet no real knowledge of their extent and condition. The relation of the conservation of natural resources to the problems of National welfare and National efficiency had not yet dawned on the public mind. The reclamation of arid public lands in the West was still a matter for private enterprise alone; and our magnificent river system, with its superb possibilities for public usefulness, was dealt with by the National Government not as a unit, but as a disconnected series of pork-barrel problems, whose only real interest was in their effect on the reëlection or defeat of a Congressman here and there—a theory which, I regret to say, still obtains."

All of these quotes are by Theodore Roosevelt. He did not protect animals and the land to hunt them. He protected animals and the land to guard them from people who would hunt them to extinction and who would exploit the land.

But he wanted to exploit the land. He just wanted to exploit it efficiently and in perpetuity rather than once and wastefully. You've just quoted him saying as much.

Slander doesn't fit you.

It's always bizarre when strangers on the internet act as if they know me.

---

1. Taking down a statue = / = forgetting history or any historical figure. In the specific case of statues of Confederates erected decades after the Civil War as symbols of white supremacy, defending them is at best forgetting and at worst denying history.

2. The people are deciding which statues stay up and which come down. If the processes of government do not move fast enough the people are taking the task of removing offensive statues on themselves.

3. How nice it must be to make smug, pointless comparisons and analogies from positions of privilege rather than openly dealing with the oppression and dehumanization inflicted and felt by erecting statues to honor enslavers, colonizers, white supremacists, racists, etc., etc.

Ulysses Grant statue is confederate statue? You know who he was, right?

Nowhere in that post does it say that.

[Stylan]

Maybe if you define resistance strictly as "that which results in an independent nation". But if that is the point...well, so what?

"So what?" The foundation of the United States as one of the first modern democracies changed literally the entire world. I don't see how you could ask that.

Give me a fucking break. The U.S. was not a democracy, nor is it at the moment. You seem to forget that to vote in the beginning of the U.S.' history you had to be a straight, white, landowning male. That's just freedom for the rich.

[Atheris]

"So what?" The foundation of the United States as one of the first modern democracies changed literally the entire world. I don't see how you could ask that.

Give me a fucking break. The U.S. was not a democracy, nor is it at the moment. You seem to forget that to vote in the beginning of the U.S.' history you had to be a straight, white, landowning male. That's just freedom for the rich.

Americans vote for their leaders. That's democracy.

[Luminesa]

You brought up question of the people deciding.

People deciding what they think about historical figures.

---

The Natural History Museum of New York is removing a statue of Teddy Roosevelt as they say it shows a Native American and a black man as racially inferior.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/teddy-roos ... -new-york/

Why was there a statue of Teddy Roosevelt in a natural history museum in the first place?

Teddy was responsible for much of its funding.

[Luminesa]

You're missing the point. The American Revolution wasn't the first act of resistance against the British Empire; it was the first successful act of resistance against the British Empire.

Maybe if you define resistance strictly as "that which results in an independent nation". But if that is the point...well, so what?

I'm guessing because he was a hard-line naturalist, founded the national parks, was an outdoorsman all his life, and protected endangered species.

So that he could hunt them.

Also so other people could enjoy the natural beauty of our country. He was a conservationist.

[The Reformed American Republic]

"So what?" The foundation of the United States as one of the first modern democracies changed literally the entire world. I don't see how you could ask that.

Give me a fucking break. The U.S. was not a democracy, nor is it at the moment. You seem to forget that to vote in the beginning of the U.S.' history you had to be a straight, white, landowning male. That's just freedom for the rich.

And that was the time period. It changed though reform.

[Aeritai]

Now that I think about it, don't we still have the Washington Monument and Thomas Jefferson Memorial? Even if these statues are taken down won't we still have those two things to remember Washington and Jefferson?

[The Reformed American Republic]

Now that I think about it, don't we still have the Washington Monument and Thomas Jefferson Memorial? Even if these statues are taken down won't we still have those two things to remember Washington and Jefferson?

For now at least, we would. Who says those memorials won't be targeted?

"So what?" The foundation of the United States as one of the first modern democracies changed literally the entire world. I don't see how you could ask that.

Give me a fucking break. The U.S. was not a democracy, nor is it at the moment. You seem to forget that to vote in the beginning of the U.S.' history you had to be a straight, white, landowning male. That's just freedom for the rich.

I'm amending my previous statement. What does a self proclaimed "tankie" like you value as democratic? An obvious blood thirsty dictator?

[Northern Davincia]

Maybe if you define resistance strictly as "that which results in an independent nation". But if that is the point...well, so what?


So that he could hunt them.

No. More about land preservation. If he hadn't of done it; there would have been much more building on it. It’s why the “free market” types are loving trump for park land rollbacks.

I'll admit, Trump does the right thing occasionally.

[Aeritai]

Now that I think about it, don't we still have the Washington Monument and Thomas Jefferson Memorial? Even if these statues are taken down won't we still have those two things to remember Washington and Jefferson?

For now at least, we would. Who says those memorials won't be targeted?

Give me a fucking break. The U.S. was not a democracy, nor is it at the moment. You seem to forget that to vote in the beginning of the U.S.' history you had to be a straight, white, landowning male. That's just freedom for the rich.

I'm amending my previous statement. What does a self proclaimed "tankie" like you value as democratic? An obvious blood thirsty dictator?

Unlikely unless the protesters somehow got their hands on C4 and blew those two up.

[The Reformed American Republic]

For now at least, we would. Who says those memorials won't be targeted?


I'm amending my previous statement. What does a self proclaimed "tankie" like you value as democratic? An obvious blood thirsty dictator?

Unlikely unless the protesters somehow got their hands on C4 and blew those two up.

They can still vandalize the Jefferson Memorial. The Washington monument not so much beyond some spray paint, but still.

[Aeritai]

Unlikely unless the protesters somehow got their hands on C4 and blew those two up.

They can still vandalize the Jefferson Memorial. The Washington monument not so much beyond some spray paint, but still.

Ah alright.

[The Two Jerseys]

Unlikely unless the protesters somehow got their hands on C4 and blew those two up.

They can still vandalize the Jefferson Memorial. The Washington monument not so much beyond some spray paint, but still.

At this point I'm actively rooting for Zombie Washington and Zombie Jefferson to come looking for vengeance.

First in War, First in Peace, First to Put a Boot in Your Ass

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that mama said knock you out"

[Sundiata]

"Simply because we were licked a hundred years before we started is no reason for us not to try to win."
-Atticus Finch, To Kill a Mockingbird

[Luminesa]

"Simply because we were licked a hundred years before we started is no reason for us not to try to win."
-Atticus Finch, To Kill a Mockingbird

...Wha?

[Sundiata]

"Simply because we were licked a hundred years before we started is no reason for us not to try to win."
-Atticus Finch, To Kill a Mockingbird

...Wha?

Justice must continually be fought for despite the odds.

[Tekania]

You dislike a statue? Sign a petition to have it moved to a museum and stop acting like a dickhead. These people are so focused on just destroying statues that they don't realize its self defeating. No one will remember the history of racism in 200 years if you destroy anything remotely connected to racism.

Do you actually think the only way people learn history is through statues?

Here is the statue of Arthur Ashe along Richmond's monument Avenue known for beating children with a tennis racket and lobbing books at them as they shield themselves from his attack.

j/k. Indeed, statutes don't teach anything outside of a sculpting class.

[The Reformed American Republic]

...Wha?

Justice must continually be fought for despite the odds.

Destroying our culture is not justice.

[Purpelia]

...Wha?

Justice must continually be fought for despite the odds.

The ends do not justify the means.

[Atheris]

...Wha?

Justice must continually be fought for despite the odds.

"The ends justify the means" is such a bad fucking mindset.

[Galloism]

Do you actually think the only way people learn history is through statues?

Here is the statue of Arthur Ashe along Richmond's monument Avenue known for beating children with a tennis racket and lobbing books at them as they shield themselves from his attack.

j/k. Indeed, statutes don't teach anything outside of a sculpting class.

Based take.

[Farnhamia]

Justice must continually be fought for despite the odds.

"The ends justify the means" is such a bad fucking mindset.

That's not what the Atticus Finch quote means. Scout asks if he's going to win his case, defending Tom Robinson, and he says no, "Simply because we were licked a hundred years before we started is no reason for us not to try to win." Even though you know you're going to lose, if the cause is just, you try anyway. Nothing about the ends justifying the means.

[Stylan]

Give me a fucking break. The U.S. was not a democracy, nor is it at the moment. You seem to forget that to vote in the beginning of the U.S.' history you had to be a straight, white, landowning male. That's just freedom for the rich.

Americans vote for their leaders. That's democracy.

It wasn't originally. Also that is hardly true - I mean, you have two political parties that subscribe to the same economic theory and system (capitalism), and support tons of the same issues (war, bailouts, deregulation, police militarization, domestic spying, the NSA, tortue, Gitmo, etc.)

If the U.S. didn't run the world we'd be viewed as a dictatorship, or at the very least an authoritarian state.

[Northern Davincia]

Americans vote for their leaders. That's democracy.

It wasn't originally. Also that is hardly true - I mean, you have two political parties that subscribe to the same economic theory and system (capitalism), and support tons of the same issues (war, bailouts, deregulation, police militarization, domestic spying, the NSA, tortue, Gitmo, etc.)

If the U.S. didn't run the world we'd be viewed as a dictatorship, or at the very least an authoritarian state.

It's a very authoritarian democracy, then, much like Athens.