Washington & Jefferson Statue Get Pulled Down

[The Emerald Legion]

Pulling down statues of people you dislike is literally no different than ISIS blowing up Mesopotamian ruins because they are unislamic. It's erasing history. And that is bad and disrespectful to all mankind is, was and will be.

God, this is a horrible fucking take, if only for the fact that ISIS wants to erase the knowledge that Mesopotamian culture existed at all and Statue-Pullers don't.

No they just want to recontextualize their existence in a false narrative.

[Kowani]

God, this is a horrible fucking take, if only for the fact that ISIS wants to erase the knowledge that Mesopotamian culture existed at all and Statue-Pullers don't.

No they just want to recontextualize their existence in a false narrative.

The objectively true narrative that they perpetuated and participated in a system that codified and legalized white supremacy.

[Alcala-Cordel]

Can you seriously not tell the moral difference between smoking and literally owning people?

There is no difference. Bad is bad and those standards must be retroactively applied to everyone who ever lived.

Down with statues glorifying smokers!

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or if you see things in extreme shades of black and white.

[Kowani]

There is no difference. Bad is bad and those standards must be retroactively applied to everyone who ever lived.

Down with statues glorifying smokers!

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or if you see things in extreme shades of black and white.

Very heavy sarcasm.

[Proctopeo]

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or if you see things in extreme shades of black and white.

Very heavy sarcasm.

Most specifically, he's mocking those who do see things in such a way, or at least act like they believe it to be true.

[Northern Davincia]

There is no difference. Bad is bad and those standards must be retroactively applied to everyone who ever lived.

Down with statues glorifying smokers!

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or if you see things in extreme shades of black and white.

Given that the only people you respect are hardline Marxists, let's not pretend you see nuance in anything else.

[West Leas Oros 2]

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or if you see things in extreme shades of black and white.

Given that the only people you respect are hardline Marxists, let's not pretend you see nuance in anything else.

I mean, do you respect anyone other than Hans-Hermann Hoppe?

[The Emerald Legion]

No they just want to recontextualize their existence in a false narrative.

The objectively true narrative that they perpetuated and participated in a system that codified and legalized white supremacy.

Incorrect.

[Violent Mike]

God, this is a horrible fucking take, if only for the fact that ISIS wants to erase the knowledge that Mesopotamian culture existed at all and Statue-Pullers don't.

Oh they are out there. Had a recent talk about slavery and the person said we should not teach about slave owners. We should teach people like Harriet Tubman. Have to admit that person didn’t attack a statue (well that I know of. Have they id’d anybody?_.

Do you really wanna know?

[Northern Davincia]

Given that the only people you respect are hardline Marxists, let's not pretend you see nuance in anything else.

I mean, do you respect anyone other than Hans-Hermann Hoppe?

No comment.

[The Black Forrest]

Oh they are out there. Had a recent talk about slavery and the person said we should not teach about slave owners. We should teach people like Harriet Tubman. Have to admit that person didn’t attack a statue (well that I know of. Have they id’d anybody?_.

Do you really wanna know?

Not really. I am happy they id’d and charge the two twonks painting over the BLM sign in the street.

[Senkaku]

If I see one more post fulminating over some hunks of metal getting bashed up while remaining eerily silent over the murder of Black people im going to McLose it

[West Leas Oros 2]

If I see one more post fulminating over some hunks of metal getting bashed up while remaining eerily silent over the murder of Black people im going to McLose it

Other people being hypocrites doesn't make tearing down random statues inherently a good thing. If you insist on a red herring, at least make it a pickled herring.

[Northern Davincia]

If I see one more post fulminating over some hunks of metal getting bashed up while remaining eerily silent over the murder of Black people im going to McLose it

This isn't the police thread, this is the statue thread.

[Kowani]

The objectively true narrative that they perpetuated and participated in a system that codified and legalized white supremacy.

Incorrect.

Did they not perpetrate and perpetuate slavery?

And don't say "they made the transatlantic slave trade illegal."

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

The objectively true narrative that they perpetuated and participated in a system that codified and legalized white supremacy.

Incorrect.

The Naturalization Act of 1790 and every naturalization act until the ratification of the 14th amendment alone proves Kowani’s assertion correct.

[Northern Davincia]

Incorrect.

The Naturalization Act of 1790 and every naturalization act until the ratification of the 14th amendment alone proves Kowani’s assertion correct.

Yet the general system left behind also dismantled legalized slavery and white supremacy. That is the greater legacy.

[The Reformed American Republic]

The Naturalization Act of 1790 and every naturalization act until the ratification of the 14th amendment alone proves Kowani’s assertion correct.

Yet the general system left behind also dismantled legalized slavery and white supremacy. That is the greater legacy.

Who cares about that when you can scream "historical oppression" from the rooftops?

[Alcala-Cordel]

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or if you see things in extreme shades of black and white.

Given that the only people you respect are hardline Marxists, let's not pretend you see nuance in anything else.

Every time I get involved in a political debate on this site someone pulls out that strawman to attack. I might not have any respect for slaveowners, rapists, imperialists, and bourgeoisie, but I have some respect for almost everyone else. Most Founding Fathers fail to cross this low bar, and as such they shouldn't have statues.

[Northern Davincia]

Given that the only people you respect are hardline Marxists, let's not pretend you see nuance in anything else.

Every time I get involved in a political debate on this site someone pulls out that strawman to attack. I might not have any respect for slaveowners, rapists, imperialists, and bourgeoisie, but I have some respect for almost everyone else. Most Founding Fathers fail to cross this low bar, and as such they shouldn't have statues.

And yet Marxist ideologues should? In the US you would be quick to find that most Americans are bourgeois-sympathizers, if not collaborators.

[Salus Maior]

Incorrect.

Did they not perpetrate and perpetuate slavery?

And don't say "they made the transatlantic slave trade illegal."

I wouldn't say they perpetuated slavery. Rather, they just sort of ignored it and pushed the issue onto future generations because it couldn't be resolved at the time without destroying the Union. All the big names knew and explicitly said that liberty and slavery couldn't coexist, they were just hoping that slavery would essentially go away by itself due to lack of profitability. Which seemed reasonable at the time until the Cotton Gin was invented.

And why not say that? It's a valid point. If they saw slavery as a positive good and had absolutely zero problem with it, why not continue the slave trade?

[West Leas Oros 2]

Did they not perpetrate and perpetuate slavery?

And don't say "they made the transatlantic slave trade illegal."

I wouldn't say they perpetuated slavery. Rather, they just sort of ignored it and pushed the issue onto future generations because it couldn't be resolved at the time without destroying the Union. All the big names knew and explicitly said that liberty and slavery couldn't coexist, they were just hoping that slavery would essentially go away by itself due to lack of profitability. Which seemed reasonable at the time until the Cotton Gin was invented.

And why not say that? It's a valid point. If they saw slavery as a positive good and had absolutely zero problem with it, why not continue the slave trade?

It comes down to whether "doing nothing" counts as perpetuating slavery.

[Salus Maior]

I wouldn't say they perpetuated slavery. Rather, they just sort of ignored it and pushed the issue onto future generations because it couldn't be resolved at the time without destroying the Union. All the big names knew and explicitly said that liberty and slavery couldn't coexist, they were just hoping that slavery would essentially go away by itself due to lack of profitability. Which seemed reasonable at the time until the Cotton Gin was invented.

And why not say that? It's a valid point. If they saw slavery as a positive good and had absolutely zero problem with it, why not continue the slave trade?

It comes down to whether "doing nothing" counts as perpetuating slavery.

Well, doing nothing essentially meant that they allowed the states to decide what they wanted to do.

For the North this meant abolishing slavery, which they did pretty quickly after independence. For the South, whose economy and culture was invested in it, this meant otherwise.

[West Leas Oros 2]

It comes down to whether "doing nothing" counts as perpetuating slavery.

Well, doing nothing essentially meant that they allowed the states to decide what they wanted to do.

For the North this meant abolishing slavery, which they did pretty quickly after independence. For the South, whose economy and culture was invested in it, this meant otherwise.

Well yeah. Everybody knows that. Ultimately, the Fathers were stuck between hurting the stability of the union at the time by taking a decisive stance on slavery, or hurting it later down the line by ignoring the issue for later. They chose the long game, and although it led to sectional conflict, it prevented immediate conflict over slavery. I can't say for certain, but i'm sure they understood the future consequences of their actions.

[Kowani]

Did they not perpetrate and perpetuate slavery?

And don't say "they made the transatlantic slave trade illegal."

I wouldn't say they perpetuated slavery. Rather, they just sort of ignored it and pushed the issue onto future generations because it couldn't be resolved at the time without destroying the Union. All the big names knew and explicitly said that liberty and slavery couldn't coexist, they were just hoping that slavery would essentially go away by itself due to lack of profitability. Which seemed reasonable at the time until the Cotton Gin was invented.

I've never understood the "slavery would go away because it was unprofitable" argument, because that implies a) that it was merely an economic system and not one of control, b) that the culture of racism would allow for any end to slavery that wasn't forced, c) that slavery did not constitute a psychological bribe to poor whites (though certainly an economic harm), and it seems to assume that slavery would end up forever producing cotton instead of switching to other crops if prices fell. It's relatively clear that most of them disliked slavery (though many of them still owned slaves, at least Washington freed his when it was possible), but were, if not perfectly]content to let it continue, its continued existence was acceptable.

And why not say that? It's a valid point. If they saw slavery as a positive good and had absolutely zero problem with it, why not continue the slave trade?

For one thing, the internal slave trade was already self-sufficient, and banning the slave trade did nothing to actually stop it. But more to the point, the general world was starting to move to Abolish the trade, and the British in particular were pressuring other nations to abolish it.
Also, being dependent on external circumstances for labor is just not smart long term.