Washington & Jefferson Statue Get Pulled Down

[Heloin]

I won't, citizens who can afford it will be paying for it.

That sounds like a lot of people won't be able to own tanks.

Seize the tank of productions.

[Ifreann]

How will you be paying for that?

Credit card

---

That sounds like a lot of people won't be able to own tanks.

Maybe, but they should not be prevented by the state from owning them, if they wish.

So you don't want people to actually be able to own tanks, you just want to change who's stopping them from owning tanks.

[The Emerald Legion]

I won't, citizens who can afford it will be paying for it.

That sounds like a lot of people won't be able to own tanks.

This is why we need civilian marketed tanks.

[Heloin]

That sounds like a lot of people won't be able to own tanks.

This is why we need civilian marketed tanks.

[The Emerald Legion]

This is why we need civilian marketed tanks.

https://youtu.be/1STRCc3U50U

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

That sounds like a lot of people won't be able to own tanks.

This is why we need civilian marketed tanks.

Any hypothetical civilian marketed tank is not going to live up to the quality of an M1A2 Abrams, Leopard 2A6, Challenger 2 or Leclerc. Best you'll realistically get is something with the armor of an LAV-25 and the gun of an early-model Panzer III. You're not going to get something that can go toe-to-toe with modern main battle tanks, and even if you could, only the super rich would be able to afford something like that (which they already can provided they fill out the proper paper work.)

[Ifreann]

That sounds like a lot of people won't be able to own tanks.

This is why we need civilian marketed tanks.

Product exists: Cars.

[Northern Davincia]

So you don't want people to actually be able to own tanks, you just want to change who's stopping them from owning tanks.

I foresee the production of cheaper civilian-grade tanks, lighter in mass and more maneuverable than heavy tanks. The market is good with innovation after all.

Putting aside this tangent for now, the Founders' statues should remain in place.

[Ifreann]

So you don't want people to actually be able to own tanks, you just want to change who's stopping them from owning tanks.

I foresee the production of cheaper civilian-grade tanks, lighter in mass and more maneuverable than heavy tanks. The market is good with innovation after all.

Like I said, those exist, they're called cars. And plenty of people are able to own one of them.

Putting aside this tangent for now, the Founders' statues should remain in place.

Nah.

[Northern Davincia]

Nah.

Master of rhetoric that you are, I am unconvinced.

[Ifreann]

Nah.

Master of rhetoric that you are, I am unconvinced.

Awww.

[Ethel mermania]

Credit card

---

Maybe, but they should not be prevented by the state from owning them, if they wish.

So you don't want people to actually be able to own tanks, you just want to change who's stopping them from owning tanks.

I wonder what kind of interest rate he pays with that.

[Tarsonis]

Credit card

---

Maybe, but they should not be prevented by the state from owning them, if they wish.

So you don't want people to actually be able to own tanks, you just want to change who's stopping them from owning tanks.

https://youtu.be/Yiwit6qMOGw

[WeKnow]

Until these events in the past couple of months, I was always perplexed at the 'pride' and 'make great again' ethos many felt towards a nation that was founded via pillaging and brutally unfair white male elitism.

While I understand that this seems outrageous (the taking down of statues in such a grotesque manner), I find it fascinating that for all these years (we're talking over 2 centuries) no one at any point felt there was an issue with celebrating and deeply respecting the racist and violent founders of US.

I can see both sides to this, I just happen to be more with the idea that these statues never deserved respect in the first place (other than being fine pieces of art).

Just because you were the first politician in a legacy doesn't make you the best or even close to the 'most good person' out of the lot. Respect for what you helped build is fine but respect for you as a person comes from what you did in spite of the immorality of your time (not how you succumbed to it).

[The Emerald Legion]

This is why we need civilian marketed tanks.

Any hypothetical civilian marketed tank is not going to live up to the quality of an M1A2 Abrams, Leopard 2A6, Challenger 2 or Leclerc. Best you'll realistically get is something with the armor of an LAV-25 and the gun of an early-model Panzer III. You're not going to get something that can go toe-to-toe with modern main battle tanks, and even if you could, only the super rich would be able to afford something like that (which they already can provided they fill out the proper paper work.)

Does it really have to? Again, sure quality will be shit. But American Civilians have more guns than the Russian and Chinese military put together. Do you think it will be any different with tanks if the door is opened?

[Fahran]

Until these events in the past couple of months, I was always perplexed at the 'pride' and 'make great again' ethos many felt towards a nation that was founded via pillaging and brutally unfair white male elitism.

While I understand that this seems outrageous (the taking down of statues in such a grotesque manner), I find it fascinating that for all these years (we're talking over 2 centuries) no one at any point felt there was an issue with celebrating and deeply respecting the racist and violent founders of US.

I can see both sides to this, I just happen to be more with the idea that these statues never deserved respect in the first place (other than being fine pieces of art).

Just because you were the first politician in a legacy doesn't make you the best or even close to the 'most good person' out of the lot. Respect for what you helped build is fine but respect for you as a person comes from what you did in spite of the immorality of your time (not how you succumbed to it).

If we cannot respect the United States because it has a history of engaging in warfare against people who, at times, engaged in warfare against it, we're not going to have a lot of respect for the Sioux or Cheyenne either given that they acquired the Black Hills by ethnically cleansing the Arikara (archaeological evidence suggests multiple massacres occurred in the wake of a major smallpox epidemic) and absorbing them culturally and linguistically after a de facto conquest.

We can extrapolate this lack of respect to a wide number of other societies, cultures, and polities as well, as I asserted to counter previous arguments to this effect. The Zulu initiated the Mfecane, which led to around two million deaths, and, as such, they would deserve no respect by this standard. The Asante were deeply complicit in the Trans-Atlantic slave trade and built their wealth from it, and, as such, they would deserve no respect by this standard. Any Arab culture beyond the Arabian peninsula and Horn of Africa is the result of deliberate conquest and often mandatory conversion and, as such, they would deserve no respect by this standard. And I could go on.

These cultures and polities warrant respect because, despite their moral failings and the atrocities their members may have committed at one point or another, they have something worthwhile and unique to offer the world, especially their own sons and daughters. The United States has given us a long-enduring political system that has consistently been preferable to the tyrannies that have prevailed else-where, has given us beautiful monuments and symbols, has given us a unique social order that is often characterized as milquetoast by those who romanticize and fetishize cultures from the Old World, and much more. The Sioux, Cheyenne, Zulu, Asante, and Arab cultures and societies gave us quite a bit too. That's why they all deserve some modicum of respect. That doesn't mean you don't call them on their atrocities but you don't dismiss their existence or importance either.

[San Kalungsod Saludong]

Until these events in the past couple of months, I was always perplexed at the 'pride' and 'make great again' ethos many felt towards a nation that was founded via pillaging and brutally unfair white male elitism.

While I understand that this seems outrageous (the taking down of statues in such a grotesque manner), I find it fascinating that for all these years (we're talking over 2 centuries) no one at any point felt there was an issue with celebrating and deeply respecting the racist and violent founders of US.

I can see both sides to this, I just happen to be more with the idea that these statues never deserved respect in the first place (other than being fine pieces of art).

Just because you were the first politician in a legacy doesn't make you the best or even close to the 'most good person' out of the lot. Respect for what you helped build is fine but respect for you as a person comes from what you did in spite of the immorality of your time (not how you succumbed to it).

If we cannot respect the United States because it has a history of engaging in warfare against people who, at times, engaged in warfare against it, we're not going to have a lot of respect for the Sioux or Cheyenne either given that they acquired the Black Hills by ethnically cleansing the Arikara (archaeological evidence suggests multiple massacres occurred in the wake of a major smallpox epidemic) and absorbing them culturally and linguistically after a de facto conquest.

We can extrapolate this lack of respect to a wide number of other societies, cultures, and polities as well, as I asserted to counter previous arguments to this effect. The Zulu initiated the Mfecane, which led to around two million deaths, and, as such, they would deserve no respect by this standard. The Asante were deeply complicit in the Trans-Atlantic slave trade and built their wealth from it, and, as such, they would deserve no respect by this standard. Any Arab culture beyond the Arabian peninsula and Horn of Africa is the result of deliberate conquest and often mandatory conversion and, as such, they would deserve no respect by this standard. And I could go on.

These cultures and polities warrant respect because, despite their moral failings and the atrocities their members may have committed at one point or another, they have something worthwhile and unique to offer the world, especially their own sons and daughters. The United States has given us a long-enduring political system that has consistently been preferable to the tyrannies that have prevailed else-where, has given us beautiful monuments and symbols, has given us a unique social order that is often characterized as milquetoast by those who romanticize and fetishize cultures from the Old World, and much more. The Sioux, Cheyenne, Zulu, Asante, and Arab cultures and societies gave us quite a bit too. That's why they all deserve some modicum of respect. That doesn't mean you don't call them on their atrocities but you don't dismiss their existence or importance either.

Bravo sis. Just because somebody did a bad thing that doesn't negate all the good he or she has done. You dont burn down the house because you saw some cockroaches. Its the same with these statues.

[WeKnow]

We can extrapolate this lack of respect to a wide number of other societies, cultures, and polities as well, as I asserted to counter previous arguments to this effect. The Zulu initiated the Mfecane, which led to around two million deaths, and, as such, they would deserve no respect by this standard.

I was referring what was done to the natives to even begin US, let alone the sheerest irony that the same people who are caucasian and resultant of immigrants pillaging upon invasion are now the type to say they are the natives and who loathe all outsiders (even kind and well-meaning ones). I speak not just of the horrific corruption and conquest mentality that US has towards the middle east or Africa during its slave trade but that the very nation itself is founded by and for white supremacist psychopaths. There was not a single founder who was not complicit in it and any who spoke out against it were silenced and bullied by those very founders.

Whether you are Zulu or American or any ethnicity at all, celebrate and respect the parts of your history you think deserve that pride. If you choose to celebrate disgusting parts of your history and glorify people who were very significant in those horrors and you then glorify them as nigh-saintly, don't be shocked when an outraged protest many generations later happens to feel the opposite way. It's only natural, in my eyes at least.

Perhaps take a read of these:
https://www.alainet.org/en/articulo/178859
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... sociopaths
https://allthatsinteresting.com/george-washington-facts

[The Emerald Legion]

We can extrapolate this lack of respect to a wide number of other societies, cultures, and polities as well, as I asserted to counter previous arguments to this effect. The Zulu initiated the Mfecane, which led to around two million deaths, and, as such, they would deserve no respect by this standard.

I was referring what was done to the natives to even begin US, let alone the sheerest irony that the same people who are caucasian and resultant of immigrants pillaging upon invasion are now the type to say they are the natives and who loathe all outsiders (even kind and well-meaning ones). I speak not just of the horrific corruption and conquest mentality that US has towards the middle east or Africa during its slave trade but that the very nation itself is founded by and for white supremacist psychopaths. There was not a single founder who was not complicit in it and any who spoke out against it were silenced and bullied by those very founders.

Whether you are Zulu or American or any ethnicity at all, celebrate and respect the parts of your history you think deserve that pride. If you choose to celebrate disgusting parts of your history and glorify people who were very significant in those horrors and you then glorify them as nigh-saintly, don't be shocked when an outraged protest many generations later happens to feel the opposite way. It's only natural, in my eyes at least.

Perhaps take a read of these:
https://www.alainet.org/en/articulo/178859
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... sociopaths
https://allthatsinteresting.com/george-washington-facts

Wow, I don't think I've ever seen someone be so thoroughly wrong before.

[Ethel mermania]

Any hypothetical civilian marketed tank is not going to live up to the quality of an M1A2 Abrams, Leopard 2A6, Challenger 2 or Leclerc. Best you'll realistically get is something with the armor of an LAV-25 and the gun of an early-model Panzer III. You're not going to get something that can go toe-to-toe with modern main battle tanks, and even if you could, only the super rich would be able to afford something like that (which they already can provided they fill out the proper paper work.)

Does it really have to? Again, sure quality will be shit. But American Civilians have more guns than the Russian and Chinese military put together. Do you think it will be any different with tanks if the door is opened?

Certainly make my friday night commute on the long island expressway quicker and a lot more entertaining

[Atheris]

Does it really have to? Again, sure quality will be shit. But American Civilians have more guns than the Russian and Chinese military put together. Do you think it will be any different with tanks if the door is opened?

Certainly make my friday night commute on the long island expressway quicker and a lot more entertaining

Traffic got you in a jam?

Use your USA-1 tank!

"Before the USA-1, I was stuck in LA traffic for three hours. Now, there's nothing standing in my way!"

What are you waiting for? Get the USA-1 today!

[The Two Jerseys]

Certainly make my friday night commute on the long island expressway quicker and a lot more entertaining

Traffic got you in a jam?

Use your USA-1 tank!

"Before the USA-1, I was stuck in LA traffic for three hours. Now, there's nothing standing in my way!"

What are you waiting for? Get the USA-1 today!

Available at your friendly neighborhood Canyonero dealer.

[Salus Maior]

Certainly make my friday night commute on the long island expressway quicker and a lot more entertaining

Traffic got you in a jam?

Use your USA-1 tank!

"Before the USA-1, I was stuck in LA traffic for three hours. Now, there's nothing standing in my way!"

What are you waiting for? Get the USA-1 today!

Not gonna lie, I'd love one of these.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

Does it really have to?.

Yes, if your goal is to overthrow a tyrannical government that has modern main battle tanks. If all you can muster is on the level of an M3 Stuart then you’re going to have a bad time.

But American Civilians have more guns than the Russian and Chinese military put together. Do you think it will be any different with tanks if the door is opened?

Yes. The difference is that tanks are significantly more expensive to purchase than guns, more expensive and time consuming to train to use and operate, more expensive to maintain, fuel, repair, crew and store and are significantly larger in size than your average gun, so you’re never going to see a civilian tank force larger than Russian and Chinese armored forces combined.

But, sadly, this is going to have to end our interesting little tangent since it’s off topic.

[Ors Might]

Clearly the solution is to subsidize the ever living hell out of tanks for the civilian market.