NationStates

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:02 pm**

Tarsonis wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:All ideas are eventually antiquated, we might as well accept that and leave the statues be.

You know I agree with you on the founding fathers and other non-confederate statues. We can just accept that history is messy, people are complicated. I mean sure our founding fathers were racist slave owners, they were also products of their time and happened to give us a governing document that would set the bar for freedom and democracy up through the later part of the 20th century. Not to mention birthing what would become the most powerful nation the world has ever seen in the process. Yeah they have some flaws, big ones. But the other shit they did is so incredible that it deserves public celebration, in spite of them.

However these confederate statues, it's not merely an issue of antiquated ideals. These men tried to found a nation entirely predicted on those antiquated ideals, committed high treason in pursuit of said nation, and after losing the bloodiest war this country ever fought in defense of those antiquated ideals, they were commemorated in stone by their contemporaries to ensure that, while they may have lost the war, those antiquated ideals would project long in to the future.

It's not about erasing history. These men don't deserve the glory afforded to them through these statues, and we would do well to make sure that neither they, nor their antiquated ideals, continue to receive it any longer.

Note that many statues were not even made by contemporaries but added far later for the explicit purpose of intimidating negroes.

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:09 pm**

The Alma Mater wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:

You know I agree with you on the founding fathers and other non-confederate statues. We can just accept that history is messy, people are complicated. I mean sure our founding fathers were racist slave owners, they were also products of their time and happened to give us a governing document that would set the bar for freedom and democracy up through the later part of the 20th century. Not to mention birthing what would become the most powerful nation the world has ever seen in the process. Yeah they have some flaws, big ones. But the other shit they did is so incredible that it deserves public celebration, in spite of them.

However these confederate statues, it's not merely an issue of antiquated ideals. These men tried to found a nation entirely predicted on those antiquated ideals, committed high treason in pursuit of said nation, and after losing the bloodiest war this country ever fought in defense of those antiquated ideals, they were commemorated in stone by their contemporaries to ensure that, while they may have lost the war, those antiquated ideals would project long in to the future.

It's not about erasing history. These men don't deserve the glory afforded to them through these statues, and we would do well to make sure that neither they, nor their antiquated ideals, continue to receive it any longer.

Note that many statues were not even made by contemporaries but added far later for the explicit purpose of intimidating negroes.

I couldn't remember the word for that group of people, the group that comes way after the primary person. However this what I meant by protecting those antiquated values long into the future

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:44 pm**

Tarsonis wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
Note that many statues were not even made by contemporaries but added far later for the explicit purpose of intimidating negroes.

I couldn't remember the word for that group of people, the group that comes way after the primary person. However this what I meant by protecting those antiquated values long into the future

It really is amazing that 8 minutes of a knee on a neck, and now Mississippi is scrapping its flag, and statues are being torn down all over the place.

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:52 pm**

Wayneactia wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
I couldn't remember the word for that group of people, the group that comes way after the primary person. However this what I meant by protecting those antiquated values long into the future

It really is amazing that 8 minutes of a knee on a neck, and now Mississippi is scrapping its flag, and statues are being torn down all over the place.

Two steps forward, three steps back; police reform eludes the public still.

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:54 pm**

Northern Davincia wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:It really is amazing that 8 minutes of a knee on a neck, and now Mississippi is scrapping its flag, and statues are being torn down all over the place.

Two steps forward, three steps back; police reform eludes the public still.

And how exactly would you reform the police in America?

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:04 pm**

Wayneactia wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
I couldn't remember the word for that group of people, the group that comes way after the primary person. However this what I meant by protecting those antiquated values long into the future

It really is amazing that 8 minutes of a knee on a neck, and now Mississippi is scrapping its flag, and statues are being torn down all over the place.

The 8 minutes was just the final straw that broke the camels back. It is not like the whole "police and society are not nice to black people" was news to anyone

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:12 pm**

Wayneactia wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Two steps forward, three steps back; police reform eludes the public still.

And how exactly would you reform the police in America?

Demilitarize them, heighten training standards, mandate body cameras, and undo the silly Supreme Court ruling that police have no obligation to protect anyone.

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:02 pm**

Northern Davincia wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:And how exactly would you reform the police in America?

Demilitarize them, heighten training standards, mandate body cameras, and undo the silly Supreme Court ruling that police have no obligation to protect anyone.

That’s actually not bad.

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:40 pm**

Kowani wrote:Blaming communism for the horrors of Stalin is like blaming Christianity for those committed by Von Wallenstein.

Von Wallenstein is a Catholic. Catholicism is a branch within Christianity. You do realize there are different branches and interpretations within a major religion, right?

Ah, I see. You want to trick me into saying "There are different branches of communism so communism can't be blamed for Stalin".

Except that's a false equivalence. Many minor branches of Christianity exists and their influence is large in different nations, while the only version of socialism (disregard Communism for now since there are no real representation of it anywhere) has been consistently authoritarian on a national scale. Minor anarcho-communist experiments have all failed, and none exists today.

If an ideology consistently enables authoritarian psychopaths to come into power in different countries, the problem is in the ideology.

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:43 pm**

Northern Davincia wrote:Demilitarize them, heighten training standards, mandate body cameras, and undo the silly Supreme Court ruling that police have no obligation to protect anyone.

This would be a great start.

Posted: **Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:43 pm**

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 5:37 am**

Northern Davincia wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:It really is amazing that 8 minutes of a knee on a neck, and now Mississippi is scrapping its flag, and statues are being torn down all over the place.

Two steps forward, three steps back; police reform eludes the public still.

Token victories being awarded to protesters in the hopes of distracting them from true justice.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:56 am**

Northern Davincia wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:And how exactly would you reform the police in America?

Demilitarize them, heighten training standards, mandate body cameras, and undo the silly Supreme Court ruling that police have no obligation to protect anyone.

All great ideas. I assume by "Demilitarize them" you mean take away their guns as well?

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:21 am**

Ifreann wrote:In continuing to deify the vaguely defined group of politicians known as the Founding Fathers you are not accepting that history is messy and people are complicated. You are deliberately ignoring their flaws as much as you possibly can without somehow removing that knowledge from your brain.

Last I checked, we don't make statues of only perfect people.

Nor are statues necessarily "deifying" someone, I haven't noticed anyone praying or worshipping before Washington or Jefferson statues, have you?

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:04 am**

Ifreann wrote:Token victories being awarded to protesters in the hopes of distracting them from true justice.

Except the protestors are demanding a lot of these things because they have no consistent organization or message and a decent swathe of them have other ideological goals beyond simply protecting black lives.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:06 am**

Wayneactia wrote:All great ideas. I assume by "Demilitarize them" you mean take away their guns as well?

We should definitely ensure that we're not sending literal SWAT teams to deal with minor law-breaking or disorder. I don't think we could just take firearms away from the police given our gun culture though. That would create a lot of problems given how well-armed your average hick or gang-banger is.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:17 am**

Wayneactia wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Demilitarize them, heighten training standards, mandate body cameras, and undo the silly Supreme Court ruling that police have no obligation to protect anyone.

All great ideas. I assume by "Demilitarize them" you mean take away their guns as well?

Owning guns is not the same as militarization. Armored vehicles and the like are forms of militarization.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:32 am**

Salus Maior wrote:
Ifreann wrote:In continuing to deify the vaguely defined group of politicians known as the Founding Fathers you are not accepting that history is messy and people are complicated. You are deliberately ignoring their flaws as much as you possibly can without somehow removing that knowledge from your brain.

Last I checked, we don't make statues of only perfect people.

Nor are statues necessarily "deifying" someone, I haven't noticed anyone praying or worshipping before Washington or Jefferson statues, have you?

I heard there were a few Shinto practitioners in Hawai’i that deified Washington, but let’s ignore that for the main point of the argument.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:35 am**

Pilipinas and Malaya wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Last I checked, we don't make statues of only perfect people.

Nor are statues necessarily "deifying" someone, I haven't noticed anyone praying or worshipping before Washington or Jefferson statues, have you?

I heard there were a few Shinto practitioners in Hawai’i that deified Washington, but let’s ignore that for the main point of the argument.

Shinto are their own kind of weird. Especially when they're taken outside of their original Japanese cultural context.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:17 pm**

Salus Maior wrote:
Ifreann wrote:In continuing to deify the vaguely defined group of politicians known as the Founding Fathers you are not accepting that history is messy and people are complicated. You are deliberately ignoring their flaws as much as you possibly can without somehow removing that knowledge from your brain.

Last I checked, we don't make statues of only perfect people.

Nor are statues necessarily "deifying" someone, I haven't noticed anyone praying or worshipping before Washington or Jefferson statues, have you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apoth ... Washington

Fahran wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Token victories being awarded to protesters in the hopes of distracting them from true justice.

Except the protestors are demanding a lot of these things because they have no consistent organization or message and a decent swathe of them have other ideological goals beyond simply protecting black lives.

Okay? I don't see what your post has to do with mine.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:23 pm**

Ifreann wrote:Okay? I don't see what your post has to do with mine.

I can see where the confusion come from though. When what the last time America had a true grassroots movement instead of an astroturfed one?

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:28 pm**

Ifreann wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Last I checked, we don't make statues of only perfect people.

Nor are statues necessarily "deifying" someone, I haven't noticed anyone praying or worshipping before Washington or Jefferson statues, have you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apoth ... Washington

Yeah, I know, that's a bit much.

But I suppose Italians are a very enthusiastic people.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:31 pm**

Ifreann wrote:Okay? I don't see what your post has to do with mine.

They're not really token victories and you don't need to distract people who aren't especially focused anyway.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:33 pm**

Salus Maior wrote:
Ifreann wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apoth ... Washington

Yeah, I know, that's a bit much.

But I suppose Italians are a very enthusiastic people.

That's some pretty epic symbolism honestly.

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:58 pm**

Northern Davincia wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:All great ideas. I assume by "Demilitarize them" you mean take away their guns as well?

Owning guns is not the same as militarization. Armored vehicles and the like are forms of militarization.

I would say there can be some standard armored vehicles in larger cities that are more likely to be the targets of terrorist attacks and such, but they don't need MRAP's. If America had a similar situation as to, say, Mexico then maybe they could be excused having an MRAP but until then they don't need that kind of gear.

NationStates

Washington & Jefferson Statue Get Pulled Down

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