Washington & Jefferson Statue Get Pulled Down

[Fahran]

How do you think the murderers are going to change the results of an election? Are they all going to write in Mr. Murder and make him president?

Criminal elements do not have a vested interest in preventing the criminality in which they partake. You're essentially arguing that people who are bad or even malicious citizens should be treated the same as good citizens when it comes to the vote. That's true of several more minor felons but it's definitely not true of a lot of felons. Do you think a serial rapist should be allowed to vote on a provision that would influence how rape kits are tested? Do you think a person who sells crack to children should get to vote on drug policy? With that in mind, this probably belongs in another thread.

[South Odreria 2]

How do you think the murderers are going to change the results of an election? Are they all going to write in Mr. Murder and make him president?

Criminal elements do not have a vested interest in preventing the criminality in which they partake. You're essentially arguing that people who are bad or even malicious citizens should be treated the same as good citizens when it comes to the vote. That's true of several more minor felons but it's definitely not true of a lot of felons. Do you think a serial rapist should be allowed to vote on a provision that would influence how rape kits are tested? Do you think a person who sells crack to children should get to vote on drug policy?

Yes.

[Greed and Death]

If it's a felony it also means they stop voting. Given this is largely political violence....

Prisoners should have just as much the right to vote as we should.

No they wont get to vote but they will be counted in the census for redistricting purposes in the rural locations they are housed.

[The Reformed American Republic]

o7 to anyone who tears down one of these monuments, major respect

To any anti-communist who stops them from doing so, major respect.

[The Emerald Legion]

Says the person who obviously didn't read the rest of what I had to say. I went into a fair amount of detail about why the story is bullshit.

Museums have been full of bullshit before now, and will likely occasionally be full of shit in the future.

The rest? You mean the comments before about DNA? As mentioned....boring. Baseless accusations. Seriously the one “study” to dispute it; suggests Jeffersons brother is the father?

Being bored. What “bullshit” have they produced?

... The study that claims it's true did not test a descendant of Thomas Jefferson.

It tested descendants of his uncle, generations after the fact.

[Ifreann]

It’s very odd to hear the consistent accusations of people hating America when by and large, the American left is working to better the country.

... No they aren't? At all. In any way. The closest you get is their bread and circuses attempts to buy votes.

You hate Americans who you say hate America. Sounds like you just hate Americans.

... They say they hate America. It's not a secret. It's not a conspiracy theory. It's open, blunt, fact. See, you might enjoy infantilism of your political opponents, but I tend to take what they say seriously. They have stated what they are against and by definition, that means they are not Americans.

By what definition is one only American if one hold certain opinions about America? Is this something you've just made up yourself?

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Can we just leave Jefferson alone?

He's dead, we don't need to worry about hurting his feelings.

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Karl Marx, Rosa Luxemburg, Malcolm X, Peter Kropotkin, W.E.B. Dubois, Eugene V. Debs, etc

I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but the US is not communist. A monument to Karl Marx would not go over well at all.

The monument of Lenin is pretty popular.

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All of these rioters should be met with harsh punishments, but everyone is too cowardly to stop them.

The police have been brutalising protesters for weeks on end and yet the protests continue. I don't know how people like you can continue to believe that harsh punishments work.

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That was inadvertent.

It still effected several revolutions. The French Revolutionaries pointed to the US revolution when their own occurred.

If Marx and Debs while racists they are should get statues for the things they stood for then shouldn’t the founding fathers also get statues for the same reason as the ideals of the American revolution had far reaching consequences?

Or maybe there aren't a simple set of rules about who gets a statue and who doesn't. Maybe communities should get to decide who they want to celebrate and who they don't, based on the fullest possible understanding of the figures in question.

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That seems a bit excessive. I do think assigning police guards to threatened monuments, imposing fines, community service, and short prison sentences proportionate to traditional vandalism, and simply taking some action is sufficient.

Any crackdown will be enough.

As above, has the crackdown on protests against police brutality ended those protests?

[The Emerald Legion]

... No they aren't? At all. In any way. The closest you get is their bread and circuses attempts to buy votes.



... They say they hate America. It's not a secret. It's not a conspiracy theory. It's open, blunt, fact. See, you might enjoy infantilism of your political opponents, but I tend to take what they say seriously. They have stated what they are against and by definition, that means they are not Americans.

By what definition is one only American if one hold certain opinions about America? Is this something you've just made up yourself?

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Can we just leave Jefferson alone?

He's dead, we don't need to worry about hurting his feelings.

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I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but the US is not communist. A monument to Karl Marx would not go over well at all.

The monument of Lenin is pretty popular.

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All of these rioters should be met with harsh punishments, but everyone is too cowardly to stop them.

The police have been brutalising protesters for weeks on end and yet the protests continue. I don't know how people like you can continue to believe that harsh punishments work.

---

It still effected several revolutions. The French Revolutionaries pointed to the US revolution when their own occurred.

If Marx and Debs while racists they are should get statues for the things they stood for then shouldn’t the founding fathers also get statues for the same reason as the ideals of the American revolution had far reaching consequences?

Or maybe there aren't a simple set of rules about who gets a statue and who doesn't. Maybe communities should get to decide who they want to celebrate and who they don't, based on the fullest possible understanding of the figures in question.

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Any crackdown will be enough.

As above, has the crackdown on protests against police brutality ended those protests?

Assuming someone opposes a group where that group is not defined by any enduring physical trait but by shared ideology.... Then obviously one is not part of that shared ideology. Meaning one is not an American if they stand in opposition to America.

[Ifreann]

By what definition is one only American if one hold certain opinions about America? Is this something you've just made up yourself?

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He's dead, we don't need to worry about hurting his feelings.

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The monument of Lenin is pretty popular.

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The police have been brutalising protesters for weeks on end and yet the protests continue. I don't know how people like you can continue to believe that harsh punishments work.

---

Or maybe there aren't a simple set of rules about who gets a statue and who doesn't. Maybe communities should get to decide who they want to celebrate and who they don't, based on the fullest possible understanding of the figures in question.

---

As above, has the crackdown on protests against police brutality ended those protests?

Assuming someone opposes a group where that group is not defined by any enduring physical trait but by shared ideology.... Then obviously one is not part of that shared ideology. Meaning one is not an American if they stand in opposition to America.

So yes, this is something you've just made up yourself.

[The Emerald Legion]

Assuming someone opposes a group where that group is not defined by any enduring physical trait but by shared ideology.... Then obviously one is not part of that shared ideology. Meaning one is not an American if they stand in opposition to America.

So yes, this is something you've just made up yourself.

sure Ifreann, sure.

[The Reformed American Republic]

Thomas Jefferson is still a great man, even if he did rape his slave. Morals back then were not ours and it was not an uncommon occurrence. The Liberalism he set in motion has done far more good than harm. Enough with this Frankfurt school bullshit.

[The Peasant Republic]

Thomas Jefferson is still a great man, even if he did rape his slave. Morals back then were not ours and it was not an uncommon occurrence. The Liberalism he set in motion has done far more good than harm. Enough with this Frankfurt school bullshit.

Rape was a bad thing in 1783 anon. As was Slavery. People had already started working towards the "lets end slavery as a thing" at the beginning of that century for both moral and economical reasons. Jefferson was a terrible human being even for his time. Hypocritical lip service to liberty and the rights of man does not a good man make.

[The Reformed American Republic]

Thomas Jefferson is still a great man, even if he did rape his slave. Morals back then were not ours and it was not an uncommon occurrence. The Liberalism he set in motion has done far more good than harm. Enough with this Frankfurt school bullshit.

Rape was a bad thing in 1783 anon. As was Slavery. People had already started working towards the "lets end slavery as a thing" at the beginning of that century for both moral and economical reasons. Jefferson was a terrible human being even for his time. Hypocritical lip service to liberty and the rights of man does not a good man make.

Abolitionism existed but was not the majority opinion back then nor was the concept of forced sex with slaves being bad. It wasn't considered "rape" when it was done to slaves.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

Don't pull down statues of Washington and Jefferson.

[Ifreann]

So yes, this is something you've just made up yourself.

sure Ifreann, sure.

Can you show me this definition originating somewhere other than your brain?

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Thomas Jefferson is still a great man, even if he did rape his slave. Morals back then were not ours and it was not an uncommon occurrence. The Liberalism he set in motion has done far more good than harm. Enough with this Frankfurt school bullshit.

Perhaps in Jefferson's day it was widely considered to be morally acceptable to rape a child provided that child was one's slave. But statues of Jefferson do not exist in that day, they exist now, today, and today raping a child is considered to be one of the most morally abhorrent crimes one can possibly commit.

[The Emerald Legion]

sure Ifreann, sure.

Can you show me this definition originating somewhere other than your brain?

---

Thomas Jefferson is still a great man, even if he did rape his slave. Morals back then were not ours and it was not an uncommon occurrence. The Liberalism he set in motion has done far more good than harm. Enough with this Frankfurt school bullshit.

Perhaps in Jefferson's day it was widely considered to be morally acceptable to rape a child provided that child was one's slave. But statues of Jefferson do not exist in that day, they exist now, today, and today raping a child is considered to be one of the most morally abhorrent crimes one can possibly commit.

It's almost like it's a logical statement rather than a definition.

Also I find it hilarious you're just uncritically assuming someone was raped.

[The Peasant Republic]

Rape was a bad thing in 1783 anon. As was Slavery. People had already started working towards the "lets end slavery as a thing" at the beginning of that century for both moral and economical reasons. Jefferson was a terrible human being even for his time. Hypocritical lip service to liberty and the rights of man does not a good man make.

Abolitionism existed but was not the majority opinion back then nor was the concept of forced sex with slaves being bad. It wasn't considered "rape" when it was done to slaves.

A rapist is still a rapist, anon.

[The Reformed American Republic]

sure Ifreann, sure.

Can you show me this definition originating somewhere other than your brain?

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Thomas Jefferson is still a great man, even if he did rape his slave. Morals back then were not ours and it was not an uncommon occurrence. The Liberalism he set in motion has done far more good than harm. Enough with this Frankfurt school bullshit.

Perhaps in Jefferson's day it was widely considered to be morally acceptable to rape a child provided that child was one's slave. But statues of Jefferson do not exist in that day, they exist now, today, and today raping a child is considered to be one of the most morally abhorrent crimes one can possibly commit.

I'm against holding figures to 21st century values retroactively. We really couldn't celebrate any figure if that was the case. We can condemn their flaws while recognizing their greatness.

[Dogmeat]

Rape was a bad thing in 1783 anon. As was Slavery. People had already started working towards the "lets end slavery as a thing" at the beginning of that century for both moral and economical reasons. Jefferson was a terrible human being even for his time. Hypocritical lip service to liberty and the rights of man does not a good man make.

Abolitionism existed but was not the majority opinion back then nor was the concept of forced sex with slaves being bad. It wasn't considered "rape" when it was done to slaves.

Just to be 100% clear: Contemporary culture absolutely would have been scandalized by a White man having sex out of wedlock with a Black woman, slave or no. Even if it was a common practice.

The "it wasn't considered bad at the time" thing doesn't really hold up.

[Galloism]

Well now they tore down the statue of Hans Christian Heg.

Because a Norwegian American journalist, leader of an anti-slave catcher militia, part of the Free Soil Party, who raised a union army regiment using his own money, and worked hard towards prison reform is now needing to be torn down.

[Dogmeat]

Well now they tore down the statue of Hans Christian Heg.

Because a Norwegian American journalist, leader of anti-slave catcher militia, part of the Free Soil Party, who raised a union army regiment using his own money, and worked hard towards prison reform is now needing to be torn down.

Are we positive these aren't actually iconoclasts in disguise?

[The Reformed American Republic]

Well now they tore down the statue of Hans Christian Heg.

Because a Norwegian American journalist, leader of anti-slave catcher militia, part of the Free Soil Party, who raised a union army regiment using his own money, and worked hard towards prison reform is now needing to be torn down.

He's an American hero. Facts don't matter due to that, as the cultural revolution must continue.

[Ifreann]

Can you show me this definition originating somewhere other than your brain?

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Perhaps in Jefferson's day it was widely considered to be morally acceptable to rape a child provided that child was one's slave. But statues of Jefferson do not exist in that day, they exist now, today, and today raping a child is considered to be one of the most morally abhorrent crimes one can possibly commit.

It's almost like it's a logical statement rather than a definition.

I was asking you for the definition you were referring to when you said that people with certain beliefs by definition are not American.

... They say they hate America. It's not a secret. It's not a conspiracy theory. It's open, blunt, fact. See, you might enjoy infantilism of your political opponents, but I tend to take what they say seriously. They have stated what they are against and by definition, that means they are not Americans.

by definition

By what definition? One you've made up whereby being American means holding certain beliefs and opinions about America?

Also I find it hilarious you're just uncritically assuming someone was raped.

I did notice that you were amusing yourself by pretending to doubt history in the hopes of outraging people. Best of luck with that.

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Can you show me this definition originating somewhere other than your brain?

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Perhaps in Jefferson's day it was widely considered to be morally acceptable to rape a child provided that child was one's slave. But statues of Jefferson do not exist in that day, they exist now, today, and today raping a child is considered to be one of the most morally abhorrent crimes one can possibly commit.

I'm against holding figures to 21st century values retroactively. We really couldn't celebrate any figure if that was the case. We can condemn their flaws while recognizing their greatness.

Taking down a statue of Jefferson is not holding historical figures to 21st century values retroactively. It is applying 21st century values in the 21st century with respect to objects that exist in the 21st century.

[The Reformed American Republic]

It's almost like it's a logical statement rather than a definition.

I was asking you for the definition you were referring to when you said that people with certain beliefs by definition are not American.

... They say they hate America. It's not a secret. It's not a conspiracy theory. It's open, blunt, fact. See, you might enjoy infantilism of your political opponents, but I tend to take what they say seriously. They have stated what they are against and by definition, that means they are not Americans.

by definition

By what definition? One you've made up whereby being American means holding certain beliefs and opinions about America?

Also I find it hilarious you're just uncritically assuming someone was raped.

I did notice that you were amusing yourself by pretending to doubt history in the hopes of outraging people. Best of luck with that.

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I'm against holding figures to 21st century values retroactively. We really couldn't celebrate any figure if that was the case. We can condemn their flaws while recognizing their greatness.

Taking down a statue of Jefferson is not holding historical figures to 21st century values retroactively. It is applying 21st century values in the 21st century with respect to objects that exist in the 21st century.

No, its saying we cannot celebrate our foundations at all because they are not post-modern. We must tear down our society and replace it with neo-Marxist foundations. And regardless if the mental gymnastics you're doing, it is saying he didn't do any good due to his flaws from the time period, and judging him from modern standards.

[The Emerald Legion]

It's almost like it's a logical statement rather than a definition.

I was asking you for the definition you were referring to when you said that people with certain beliefs by definition are not American.

... They say they hate America. It's not a secret. It's not a conspiracy theory. It's open, blunt, fact. See, you might enjoy infantilism of your political opponents, but I tend to take what they say seriously. They have stated what they are against and by definition, that means they are not Americans.

by definition

By what definition? One you've made up whereby being American means holding certain beliefs and opinions about America?

Also I find it hilarious you're just uncritically assuming someone was raped.

I did notice that you were amusing yourself by pretending to doubt history in the hopes of outraging people. Best of luck with that.

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I'm against holding figures to 21st century values retroactively. We really couldn't celebrate any figure if that was the case. We can condemn their flaws while recognizing their greatness.

Taking down a statue of Jefferson is not holding historical figures to 21st century values retroactively. It is applying 21st century values in the 21st century with respect to objects that exist in the 21st century.

Is pedantry really where you want to go?

[The Reformed American Republic]

I was asking you for the definition you were referring to when you said that people with certain beliefs by definition are not American.


By what definition? One you've made up whereby being American means holding certain beliefs and opinions about America?



I did notice that you were amusing yourself by pretending to doubt history in the hopes of outraging people. Best of luck with that.

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Taking down a statue of Jefferson is not holding historical figures to 21st century values retroactively. It is applying 21st century values in the 21st century with respect to objects that exist in the 21st century.

Is pedantry really where you want to go?

He is influenced by Philosophy Communist Tube, and that is partially how he defeats his opponents, by attacking their diction.