Washington & Jefferson Statue Get Pulled Down

[The Reformed American Republic]

It still effected several revolutions. The French Revolutionaries pointed to the US revolution when their own occurred.

If Marx and Debs while racists they are should get statues for the things they stood for then shouldn’t the founding fathers also get statues for the same reason as the ideals of the American revolution had far reaching consequences?

Marx and Debs were had a deliberate goal in mind, whereas the Founding Fathers themselves were against leftist movements.

Leftism was not much of a thing those days.

[Fahran]

Unless they are libertarian socialist or people who the same idolize no.

Also how dare you bring religion into this

People have already brought their secular theologies into this. We're referencing a religious movement as well when we discuss iconoclasm. The proper response here is that much of the secular theology driving this modern iconoclasm is implicitly contrary to the vision and values of America and thus it behooves the American political community to disregard the convictions of those it cannot sway. We're not a secular theocracy. We have no reason to erect statues of Marx, Lenin, or Luxemburg. We erect statues of people who made an impact on our history and who epitomized our values, however flawed they might have been.

[Neanderthaland]

Left and right wasn’t a thing during the time of the American revolution, the trend at the time was liberalism vs absolutism, and republicanism vs. monarchism

Yeah, there were different terms for it at the time

And what were those terms?

[Salus Maior]

Marx and Debs were had a deliberate goal in mind, whereas the Founding Fathers themselves were against leftist movements.

Jefferson and his faction of Antifederalists/democratic republicans would be about as close as one could get to left wing politics in the American revolution. Arguably, their ideas informed later democratic movements.

I get the sense you really don't know anything substantial about early American politics outside of a few things that the figures in question did wrong.

[Alcala-Cordel]

Marx and Debs were had a deliberate goal in mind, whereas the Founding Fathers themselves were against leftist movements.

Jefferson and his faction of Antifederalists/democratic republicans would be about as close as one could get to left wing politics in the American revolution. Arguably, their ideas informed later democratic movements.

I get the sense you really don't know anything substantial about early American politics outside of a few things that the figures in question did wrong.

Left wing politics did exist back then, but the left wasn't really that involved in the Revolution.

There have always been movements for tolerance and equality in some form or another, with many different names for themselves. Those people were the left of their time.

[Fahran]

Left wing politics did exist back then, but the left wasn't really that involved in the Revolution.

It really depends on what you mean by "left-wing politics." I think the guy who wanted a nation of family-owned farms with some approximation of classlessness among the white population, talked about continuous revolution, and who supported the French Revolution comes pretty close to being left-wing.

[The Reformed American Republic]

Left wing politics did exist back then, but the left wasn't really that involved in the Revolution.

It really depends on what you mean by "left-wing politics." I think the guy who wanted a nation of family-owned farms with some approximation of classlessness among the white population, talked about continuous revolution, and who supported the French Revolution comes pretty close to being left-wing.

That was the left wing. There were others further left during the English Civil War, but those movements were destroyed before our founders were even born.

[Salus Maior]

Jefferson and his faction of Antifederalists/democratic republicans would be about as close as one could get to left wing politics in the American revolution. Arguably, their ideas informed later democratic movements.

I get the sense you really don't know anything substantial about early American politics outside of a few things that the figures in question did wrong.

Left wing politics did exist back then, but the left wasn't really that involved in the Revolution.

What Jefferson and his faction advocated for was local democracy with a government incapable of interfering with the rights of the people, more or less. As opposed to the Federalists who wanted a central government and a country-spanning Republic with significant powers. With this ideal in mind, they were ultimately responsible for the addition of the Bill of Rights in the Constitution.

So, out of the two, Jefferson was more in line with "leftist" politics than the Federalists, arguably, with their more anti-hierarchical stance. And this can also be seen in his, and his supporters, enthusiastic support of the French Revolution, whom the Federalists opposed and feared.

[Fahran]

That was the left wing. There were others further left during the English Civil War, but those movements were destroyed before our founders were even born.

It was one of the more radical positions that emerged from the American Revolution certainly. And enthusiastic support for the French Revolution, while complicated by the perception of an American debt owed to the French, was often indicative of a person's ideological radicalism.

[Salus Maior]

That was the left wing. There were others further left during the English Civil War, but those movements were destroyed before our founders were even born.

It was one of the more radical positions that emerged from the American Revolution certainly. And enthusiastic support for the French Revolution, while complicated by the perception of an American debt owed to the French, was often indicative of a person's ideological radicalism.

Owed to the King, technically.

Which is also what Washington essentially said to the French.

[Alcala-Cordel]

Left wing politics did exist back then, but the left wasn't really that involved in the Revolution.

What Jefferson and his faction advocated for was local democracy with a government incapable of interfering with the rights of the people, more or less. As opposed to the Federalists who wanted a central government and a country-spanning Republic with significant powers. With this ideal in mind, they were ultimately responsible for the addition of the Bill of Rights in the Constitution.

So, out of the two, Jefferson was more in line with "leftist" politics than the Federalists, arguably, with their more anti-hierarchical stance. And this can also be seen in his, and his supporters, enthusiastic support of the French Revolution, whom the Federalists opposed and feared.

Neither of these groups could be considered the left even during that time period, however. We had a basic form of Utopians back then, and the specter of communism was lurking.

[The Lone Alliance]

Neither of these groups could be considered the left even during that time period, however. We had a basic form of Utopians back then, and the specter of communism was lurking.

Economic equality may not have been as much of a thing before the Industrial Revolution but to claim that such ideas weren't leftist is laughable.

Marx doesn't own the left, if anything he owes it to the ones who came before him, including some of the founding fathers, as much as you hate them.

[Alcala-Cordel]

Neither of these groups could be considered the left even during that time period, however. We had a basic form of Utopians back then, and the specter of communism was lurking.

Economic equality may not have been as much of a thing before the Industrial Revolution but to claim that such ideas weren't leftist is laughable.

Marx doesn't own the left, if anything he owes it to the ones who came before him, including some of the founding fathers, as much as you hate them.

Marx has never owned the left, he just organized a leftist movement from ancient ideas.

[Salus Maior]

Economic equality may not have been as much of a thing before the Industrial Revolution but to claim that such ideas weren't leftist is laughable.

Marx doesn't own the left, if anything he owes it to the ones who came before him, including some of the founding fathers, as much as you hate them.

Marx has never owned the left, he just organized a leftist movement from ancient ideas.

"ancient ideas" from where?

[Neanderthaland]

Marx has never owned the left, he just organized a leftist movement from ancient ideas.

"ancient ideas" from where?

From ancient Revolutionary France. Specifically the left of the presiding member's chair in parliament.

[Salus Maior]

"ancient ideas" from where?

From ancient Revolutionary France. Specifically the left of the presiding member's chair in parliament.

Who were also inspired by American ideas and successes.

[Pangurstan]

"ancient ideas" from where?

From ancient Revolutionary France. Specifically the left of the presiding member's chair in parliament.

Movements that had some form of socialist ideas have been around for a lot longer than the French Revolution.

[Salus Maior]

From ancient Revolutionary France. Specifically the left of the presiding member's chair in parliament.

Movements that had some form of socialist ideas have been around for a lot longer than the French Revolution.

Namely?

[Greed and Death]

It was one of the more radical positions that emerged from the American Revolution certainly. And enthusiastic support for the French Revolution, while complicated by the perception of an American debt owed to the French, was often indicative of a person's ideological radicalism.

Owed to the King, technically.

Which is also what Washington essentially said to the French.

Dont worry a banker named James Swan assumed the debts owed to France. He was sent to Debtors prison in Paris and released shortly before his death.

[Farnhamia]

From ancient Revolutionary France. Specifically the left of the presiding member's chair in parliament.

Movements that had some form of socialist ideas have been around for a lot longer than the French Revolution.

Yes, but the term ...

The political terms Left and Right were coined during the French Revolution (1789–1799), referring to the seating arrangement in the French Estates General: those who sat on the left generally opposed the monarchy and supported the revolution, including the creation of a republic and secularization,[5] while those on the right were supportive of the traditional institutions of the Old Regime. Use of the term Left became more prominent after the restoration of the French monarchy in 1815 when it was applied to the "Independents".[6] The word "wing" was appended to Left and Right in the late 19th century, usually with disparaging intent and "left-wing" was applied to those who were unorthodox in their religious or political views.

[Pangurstan]

Movements that had some form of socialist ideas have been around for a lot longer than the French Revolution.

Namely?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Peasants%27_War
Most peasant revolts had goals that would be considered socialist today

[The Black Forrest]

How is it historical fanfiction when it's a Museum explaining the history of Jefferson?

Because museums have never been wrong or built to perpetuate untruthful things before.

Just admit you didn’t even read it. Conservative baseless accusations are boring.

[The Black Forrest]

Hmmm? Much of that seems to be centered on slave equals rape.

One would ask is if Sally was simply property; why would Jefferson pay her a wage when they lived in France?

If he was raping her all the time; why didn't she make a run for it?

I will admit my knowledge of her history is basic at best. Some things are a tad more in depth then simply she was a slave so he raped her.

Anyway....

https://www.monticello.org/sallyhemings/ I suggest reading this to understand Sally's relationship with Jefferson.

Interesting. Thanks.

One critical comment which is often ignored.

“The nature of Sally Hemings’s sexual encounters with Thomas Jefferson will never be known.”

It could have been rape. I could have been they actually loved each other. We can only speculate and most people tend to go with their views.

[Salus Maior]

https://www.monticello.org/sallyhemings/ I suggest reading this to understand Sally's relationship with Jefferson.

Interesting. Thanks.

One critical comment which is often ignored.

“The nature of Sally Hemings’s sexual encounters with Thomas Jefferson will never be known.”

It could have been rape. I could have been they actually loved each other. We can only speculate and most people tend to go with their views.

Well, considering he was in a place of power over her it would always be unethical.

[The Reformed American Republic]

Namely?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Peasants%27_War
Most peasant revolts had goals that would be considered socialist today

Only by actual reactionaries who support feudalism.