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by Monyasi » Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:47 am
by The Reformed American Republic » Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:25 am
by Nobel Hobos 2 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:49 am
by Soiled fruit roll ups » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:05 am
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:The Reformed American Republic wrote:Most forms of cultural "evolution" don't entail a country completely abolishing itself or its values, which is what you seem to be advocating for.
Eventually they do. It's only with hindsight you see the culture and values of two centuries ago that you're proud to retain now. But you didn't retain ALL of it, clearly, some of it has been abolished by history. If you were living back then you'd have no idea what was going to last and what was going on the trash heap in the future ...
So fight for what you want to retain, 'cos SOMETHING is going to go. You can't fight for "all traditions" because that way you just lose your say, you lose influence on how your present will become the future. Are you really sure the veneration of slavery, which is fucking dead already, is the thing you want to preserve?
by Nobel Hobos 2 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:25 am
Soiled fruit roll ups wrote:Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Eventually they do. It's only with hindsight you see the culture and values of two centuries ago that you're proud to retain now. But you didn't retain ALL of it, clearly, some of it has been abolished by history. If you were living back then you'd have no idea what was going to last and what was going on the trash heap in the future ...
So fight for what you want to retain, 'cos SOMETHING is going to go. You can't fight for "all traditions" because that way you just lose your say, you lose influence on how your present will become the future. Are you really sure the veneration of slavery, which is fucking dead already, is the thing you want to preserve?
But if the culture and values of two centuries ago were different how are you going to hold people accountable for their actions today?
by Soiled fruit roll ups » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:30 am
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:Soiled fruit roll ups wrote:
But if the culture and values of two centuries ago were different how are you going to hold people accountable for their actions today?
By doing what I tried to do: separate history into "good culture" that we still have, and "bad culture" we have left by the wayside or deliberately ended.
Individuals from the time can be weighed by how much of the good and how much of the bad, they embodied. In my opinion, Washington and Jefferson both make the cut, more good than bad, so they both deserve the odd statue here and there.
Do we "hold them accountable" by merely not having statues of them? No, but nor should we think that having statues endorses them as perfect people. There are no perfect people, and imo those who did very little wrong are also those who did very little period.
by Ifreann » Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:25 am
Cisairse wrote:Fahran wrote:Importantly, cultural myths do not necessarily need to contradict historical sources or constitute fairy tales. My entire assertion throughout this has been that we can acknowledge the evil committed by culturally and historically important people while lionizing them in statues and monuments for the services they rendered to our political community and broader society.
Having a statue doesn't mean that you're a representative of all things good in the world. All cultural heroes, all heroes of any kind, have fundamental character and moral failings. This does not mean that cultural heroes cease to be worthwhile. They're very valuable tools in providing examples, instruction, and an ideal to citizens - and that's increasingly important at a time when values have been confused and blurred, often purposefully.
Statues are not valuable tools in providing examples, instruction, and an ideal to citizens. Statues are not people. Statues do not have accomplishments.
And we shouldn't be holding up child rapists as examples of an ideal for citizens to look up to.
Kragholm Free States wrote:Cisairse wrote:Hardly. I support destruction of the lie that these historical figures were gods among men that everyone should aspire to be. That's a dangerous idea, and "cultural myths" like these are cancerous. They must be fought against.
What a load of rubbish. Nobody worships these men as gods, as well you know. And what culture has not set its foundation in myth of one kind or another? You seek to destroy culture itself, whether you recognise it or not, and that is the most dangerous, cancerous idea of all.
The Reformed American Republic wrote:Fahran wrote:You nip these destructive trends in the bud. You don't allow them to grow like weeds across the flower bed. There are quite a few ideological and practical weeds that ought to have been nipped sooner. Trumpism for instance, though some of them might bring some good eventually.
Leftists are clever here in the west. They slowly increment towards cultural destruction.
by The Reformed American Republic » Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:27 pm
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:The Reformed American Republic wrote:Most forms of cultural "evolution" don't entail a country completely abolishing itself or its values, which is what you seem to be advocating for.
Eventually they do. It's only with hindsight you see the culture and values of two centuries ago that you're proud to retain now. But you didn't retain ALL of it, clearly, some of it has been abolished by history. If you were living back then you'd have no idea what was going to last and what was going on the trash heap in the future ...
So fight for what you want to retain, 'cos SOMETHING is going to go. You can't fight for "all traditions" because that way you just lose your say, you lose influence on how your present will become the future. Are you really sure the veneration of slavery, which is fucking dead already, is the thing you want to preserve?
by The Greater Ohio Valley » Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:40 pm
by The Reformed American Republic » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:40 pm
by Fahran » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:58 pm
Kowani wrote:That...you don't seem to understand my point.
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:So fight for what you want to retain, 'cos SOMETHING is going to go. You can't fight for "all traditions" because that way you just lose your say, you lose influence on how your present will become the future. Are you really sure the veneration of slavery, which is fucking dead already, is the thing you want to preserve?
by Fahran » Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:06 pm
The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:So the alternative is what? Cultural stagnation? Seems like a pretty shitty alternative.
by Auze » Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:34 pm
by Kowani » Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:50 pm
Fahran wrote:Kowani wrote:That...you don't seem to understand my point.
I understand your point quite well. My argument was more so that an absence of nationalism does not always have advantageous or moral consequences because, as the United States and multiple other polities suggest, an absence of strong ethnic or cultural nationalism does not prevent oppression or assimilation.
Hegemonic culture and prejudice don't simply vanish because of a refusal to acknowledge their impact. Israel was good for Jewish people compared to remaining in their previous state of subjugation and constituted, in many ways, a national liberation. Ditto for the American Indian Movement.
by Cisairse » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:09 pm
The Reformed American Republic wrote:Fahran wrote:You nip these destructive trends in the bud. You don't allow them to grow like weeds across the flower bed. There are quite a few ideological and practical weeds that ought to have been nipped sooner. Trumpism for instance, though some of them might bring some good eventually.
Leftists are clever here in the west. They slowly increment towards cultural destruction.
by Stylan » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:11 pm
The Reformed American Republic wrote:Fahran wrote:You nip these destructive trends in the bud. You don't allow them to grow like weeds across the flower bed. There are quite a few ideological and practical weeds that ought to have been nipped sooner. Trumpism for instance, though some of them might bring some good eventually.
Leftists are clever here in the west. They slowly increment towards cultural destruction.
by The Black Forrest » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:11 pm
The Reformed American Republic wrote:Fahran wrote:You nip these destructive trends in the bud. You don't allow them to grow like weeds across the flower bed. There are quite a few ideological and practical weeds that ought to have been nipped sooner. Trumpism for instance, though some of them might bring some good eventually.
Leftists are clever here in the west. They slowly increment towards cultural destruction.
by South Odreria 2 » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:12 pm
Valrifell wrote:
Disregard whatever this poster says
by Rojava Free State » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:12 pm
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.
by Rojava Free State » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:13 pm
South Odreria 2 wrote:The problem is we already don’t have much of a national culture to preserve.
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.
by Stylan » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:14 pm
South Odreria 2 wrote:The problem is we already don’t have much of a national culture to preserve.
by Proctopeo » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:22 pm
by Stylan » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:23 pm
Proctopeo wrote:Rojava Free State wrote:
Americans seem as culturally different as Canadians are from Australians tbh. A californian and a West Virginian are two different things.
America has as much culture as any other country. America's huge cultural influence makes it not seem like that, at least to the lazy.
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