Washington & Jefferson Statue Get Pulled Down

[Monyasi]

As a black male, I stand firmly in my belief that the statues should remain standing. History repeats itself and markers like those are reminders. Aside from the racial issues, those men still built the country of America. The conviction and bravery those men have in their hearts is something that the people pulling the statue down will never come close to having. They went up against one of the first true global superpowers. And won.

Yes, they did own slaves.

No, tearing down statues is going to fix many of the issues that go on in America.

We all have embarrassing points and bad moments we regret in out lives. These moments shaped who we are today for it. Bad moments don't determine who we will be forever, they are life lessons. To forget your history is to forget to improve. Someday I'll have a child and that child will only know of America's founders as "slave owners" and have an asterisk by their name as they are glossed over in history books. To ignore what they have done out of respect for our "feelings" is not okay. We should leave statues up, and make more statues of modern leaders. I can not accept reducing the valor of these men to "racists". It seems as if America is trying to separate itself from its past, rewriting history. We should be embracing that history. Everything that happened. We should not hold our neighbors accountable for the past. No one alive in America today witnessed slavery. Let us move on and come together to unite and usher in better times for all.

To live in the past is to never move forward.

[The Reformed American Republic]

Call it what you will. It still is destructive.

All cultural evolution is destructive.

Most forms of cultural "evolution" don't entail a country completely abolishing itself or its values, which is what you seem to be advocating for.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

All cultural evolution is destructive.

Most forms of cultural "evolution" don't entail a country completely abolishing itself or its values, which is what you seem to be advocating for.

Eventually they do. It's only with hindsight you see the culture and values of two centuries ago that you're proud to retain now. But you didn't retain ALL of it, clearly, some of it has been abolished by history. If you were living back then you'd have no idea what was going to last and what was going on the trash heap in the future ...

So fight for what you want to retain, 'cos SOMETHING is going to go. You can't fight for "all traditions" because that way you just lose your say, you lose influence on how your present will become the future. Are you really sure the veneration of slavery, which is fucking dead already, is the thing you want to preserve?

[Soiled fruit roll ups]

Most forms of cultural "evolution" don't entail a country completely abolishing itself or its values, which is what you seem to be advocating for.

Eventually they do. It's only with hindsight you see the culture and values of two centuries ago that you're proud to retain now. But you didn't retain ALL of it, clearly, some of it has been abolished by history. If you were living back then you'd have no idea what was going to last and what was going on the trash heap in the future ...

So fight for what you want to retain, 'cos SOMETHING is going to go. You can't fight for "all traditions" because that way you just lose your say, you lose influence on how your present will become the future. Are you really sure the veneration of slavery, which is fucking dead already, is the thing you want to preserve?

But if the culture and values of two centuries ago were different how are you going to hold people accountable for their actions today?

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Eventually they do. It's only with hindsight you see the culture and values of two centuries ago that you're proud to retain now. But you didn't retain ALL of it, clearly, some of it has been abolished by history. If you were living back then you'd have no idea what was going to last and what was going on the trash heap in the future ...

So fight for what you want to retain, 'cos SOMETHING is going to go. You can't fight for "all traditions" because that way you just lose your say, you lose influence on how your present will become the future. Are you really sure the veneration of slavery, which is fucking dead already, is the thing you want to preserve?

But if the culture and values of two centuries ago were different how are you going to hold people accountable for their actions today?

By doing what I tried to do: separate history into "good culture" that we still have, and "bad culture" we have left by the wayside or deliberately ended.

Individuals from the time can be weighed by how much of the good and how much of the bad, they embodied. In my opinion, Washington and Jefferson both make the cut, more good than bad, so they both deserve the odd statue here and there.

Do we "hold them accountable" by merely not having statues of them? No, but nor should we think that having statues endorses them as perfect people. There are no perfect people, and imo those who did very little wrong are also those who did very little period.

[Soiled fruit roll ups]

But if the culture and values of two centuries ago were different how are you going to hold people accountable for their actions today?

By doing what I tried to do: separate history into "good culture" that we still have, and "bad culture" we have left by the wayside or deliberately ended.

Individuals from the time can be weighed by how much of the good and how much of the bad, they embodied. In my opinion, Washington and Jefferson both make the cut, more good than bad, so they both deserve the odd statue here and there.

Do we "hold them accountable" by merely not having statues of them? No, but nor should we think that having statues endorses them as perfect people. There are no perfect people, and imo those who did very little wrong are also those who did very little period.

I think that this website has been around long enough for the mods to develop a sarcasm font, with automatic detection.

[Ifreann]

Importantly, cultural myths do not necessarily need to contradict historical sources or constitute fairy tales. My entire assertion throughout this has been that we can acknowledge the evil committed by culturally and historically important people while lionizing them in statues and monuments for the services they rendered to our political community and broader society.


Having a statue doesn't mean that you're a representative of all things good in the world. All cultural heroes, all heroes of any kind, have fundamental character and moral failings. This does not mean that cultural heroes cease to be worthwhile. They're very valuable tools in providing examples, instruction, and an ideal to citizens - and that's increasingly important at a time when values have been confused and blurred, often purposefully.

Statues are not valuable tools in providing examples, instruction, and an ideal to citizens. Statues are not people. Statues do not have accomplishments.

And we shouldn't be holding up child rapists as examples of an ideal for citizens to look up to.

Replace all statues of Jefferson with statues of Superman.

Really, why not? Sure, maybe if you look at history you won't find much evidence of the Last Son of Krypton defeating the hated British with his laser eyes, but if we're ignoring the evidence that Jefferson raped his child slave then clearly we are not concerned about facts and evidence, we are just trying to create an ideal for people to strive towards. Who better than the Big Blue Boy Scout?

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Hardly. I support destruction of the lie that these historical figures were gods among men that everyone should aspire to be. That's a dangerous idea, and "cultural myths" like these are cancerous. They must be fought against.

What a load of rubbish. Nobody worships these men as gods, as well you know. And what culture has not set its foundation in myth of one kind or another? You seek to destroy culture itself, whether you recognise it or not, and that is the most dangerous, cancerous idea of all.

"Apotheosis", meaning the elevation of a person to the status of a god.

---

You nip these destructive trends in the bud. You don't allow them to grow like weeds across the flower bed. There are quite a few ideological and practical weeds that ought to have been nipped sooner. Trumpism for instance, though some of them might bring some good eventually.

Leftists are clever here in the west. They slowly increment towards cultural destruction.

Thanks, I think.

[The Reformed American Republic]

Most forms of cultural "evolution" don't entail a country completely abolishing itself or its values, which is what you seem to be advocating for.

Eventually they do. It's only with hindsight you see the culture and values of two centuries ago that you're proud to retain now. But you didn't retain ALL of it, clearly, some of it has been abolished by history. If you were living back then you'd have no idea what was going to last and what was going on the trash heap in the future ...

So fight for what you want to retain, 'cos SOMETHING is going to go. You can't fight for "all traditions" because that way you just lose your say, you lose influence on how your present will become the future. Are you really sure the veneration of slavery, which is fucking dead already, is the thing you want to preserve?

I am not doing it to respect slavery though, neither did the abolition of slavery abolish what our nation was founded on, which is constitutional representative republicanism. George Washington symbolizes enlightenment ideals, not "slavery is good, celebrate it in modern times."

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

342qqqq

That...don't seem to understand my point.

Call it what you will. It still is destructive.

So the alternative is what? Cultural stagnation? Seems like a pretty shitty alternative.

[The Reformed American Republic]

Call it what you will. It still is destructive.

So the alternative is what? Cultural stagnation? Seems like a pretty shitty alternative.

Never advocated for complete social stagnation. I think my posts have been taken out of context.

[Fahran]

That...you don't seem to understand my point.

I understand your point quite well. My argument was more so that an absence of nationalism does not always have advantageous or moral consequences because, as the United States and multiple other polities suggest, an absence of strong ethnic or cultural nationalism does not prevent oppression or assimilation. Hegemonic culture and prejudice don't simply vanish because of a refusal to acknowledge their impact. Israel was good for Jewish people compared to remaining in their previous state of subjugation and constituted, in many ways, a national liberation. Ditto for the American Indian Movement.

So fight for what you want to retain, 'cos SOMETHING is going to go. You can't fight for "all traditions" because that way you just lose your say, you lose influence on how your present will become the future. Are you really sure the veneration of slavery, which is fucking dead already, is the thing you want to preserve?

The statues in question aren't about the veneration of slavery. They're about the veneration of the service and ideals the men they portray rendered to the nation and present us with a compelling narrative about civic heroism and stewardship. We can point to a wide variety of the personal traits these historical figures possessed and, by and large, it's difficult not to describe those traits as virtues. We're focusing on a singular aspect of their private lives to further a particular ideological objective at the moment, which wouldn't be a problem if that ideological objective had relevance or advantage to the vast majority of our community. It doesn't though.

[Fahran]

So the alternative is what? Cultural stagnation? Seems like a pretty shitty alternative.

This isn't an organic or popular development. It's a bunch of mobs motivated by Marxist or black nationalist rhetoric toppling monuments and statues without the consent of the broader body politic. You do not capitulate to ideologues on these matters, not without an actual debate. If the best argument they can muster is "we shouldn't have statues of people who did x bad thing" or "you shouldn't lionize anyone", they don't have a good argument in the context of civic virtues and regalia of the state.

[Auze]

[quote="Ifreann";p="37387355"
What a load of rubbish. Nobody worships these men as gods, as well you know. And what culture has not set its foundation in myth of one kind or another? You seek to destroy culture itself, whether you recognise it or not, and that is the most dangerous, cancerous idea of all.[/quote]

(Image)

"Apotheosis", meaning the elevation of a person to the status of a god.
[/quote]

The Gods are allegorical for all of the different aspects of America. Also, considering the man who made it worked for the Vatican before he emigrated from Rome, it's to be expected that he'd probably use the same sort of things (also, it was made after the Civil War, also known as the time when Patriotism was at an all time high outside of the South).

[Kowani]

That...you don't seem to understand my point.

I understand your point quite well. My argument was more so that an absence of nationalism does not always have advantageous or moral consequences because, as the United States and multiple other polities suggest, an absence of strong ethnic or cultural nationalism does not prevent oppression or assimilation.

…Do you actually think the US wasn’t culturally nationalistic for much of its history (and arguably continues to be).

Hegemonic culture and prejudice don't simply vanish because of a refusal to acknowledge their impact. Israel was good for Jewish people compared to remaining in their previous state of subjugation and constituted, in many ways, a national liberation. Ditto for the American Indian Movement.

“Better than the alternative” does not actually make the movement “good.”
Better to have a nationstate than to be oppressed, but if there was no nationalism in their origin countries, Israel would not have been necessary at all-and its long descent into the…general clusterfuck in the region today is only evidence of my point.
The AIM gets a slight pass, not because their cultures are better, but because material conditions prevented them from seeing their nationalism blossom to the fullest. Of it had, it would’ve been just as toxic.

[Cisairse]

You nip these destructive trends in the bud. You don't allow them to grow like weeds across the flower bed. There are quite a few ideological and practical weeds that ought to have been nipped sooner. Trumpism for instance, though some of them might bring some good eventually.

Leftists are clever here in the west. They slowly increment towards cultural destruction.

Much to my dismay. I wish we would move much quicker.

[Stylan]

You nip these destructive trends in the bud. You don't allow them to grow like weeds across the flower bed. There are quite a few ideological and practical weeds that ought to have been nipped sooner. Trumpism for instance, though some of them might bring some good eventually.

Leftists are clever here in the west. They slowly increment towards cultural destruction.

Yeah, tbh we're working on speeding it up. I've been talking to George Soros and he told me that he's really scared because 16 year olds on the Internet are calling him out on his communist islamic atheist nazi communist socialist capitalist zionist anti-israel scheme to destroy all the white people, including Italians and Greeks.

[The Black Forrest]

You nip these destructive trends in the bud. You don't allow them to grow like weeds across the flower bed. There are quite a few ideological and practical weeds that ought to have been nipped sooner. Trumpism for instance, though some of them might bring some good eventually.

Leftists are clever here in the west. They slowly increment towards cultural destruction.

Do they now? What culture are they destroying?

[South Odreria 2]

The problem is we already don’t have much of a national culture to preserve.

[Rojava Free State]

One day I wanna just put up a plaque in the park saying "George Washington the big gay." I'll manage to offend both the left wing and right wing at the same time, bringing unity back to society even if just temporarily so they can hunt me.

[Rojava Free State]

The problem is we already don’t have much of a national culture to preserve.

Americans seem as culturally different as Canadians are from Australians tbh. A californian and a West Virginian are two different things.

[Stylan]

The problem is we already don’t have much of a national culture to preserve.

America has no culture, even Evola admits that.

Tbh most fascists, Hitler, Mussolini, Evola despised America.

America has no culture, which is why this country is in such a shitty state tbh.

[Proctopeo]

The problem is we already don’t have much of a national culture to preserve.

Americans seem as culturally different as Canadians are from Australians tbh. A californian and a West Virginian are two different things.

America has as much culture as any other country. America's huge cultural influence makes it not seem like that, at least to the lazy.

[Stylan]

Americans seem as culturally different as Canadians are from Australians tbh. A californian and a West Virginian are two different things.

America has as much culture as any other country. America's huge cultural influence makes it not seem like that, at least to the lazy.

americas amazing culture of hamburgers and turkey and corn and also rock music kind of

[Proctopeo]

America has as much culture as any other country. America's huge cultural influence makes it not seem like that, at least to the lazy.

americas amazing culture of hamburgers and turkey and corn and also rock music kind of

Case in point.

[Stylan]

americas amazing culture of hamburgers and turkey and corn and also rock music kind of

Case in point.

it was a joke

Hamburgers are german, turkey and corn can be found elsewhere, rock music MAYBE