Washington & Jefferson Statue Get Pulled Down

[Salus Maior]

Either through history channel (lol), or people actually going out of their way to read books.

I'm not too optimistic about that.

What happened in Germany before 1945? I can't seem to find any statues of whoever was in charge then, how does anyone expect me to know the history?

WWII is part of pop culture. And I imagine the average person doesn't know very much about how it actually happened.

Could you ask the average person what Thomas Jefferson did in his presidency and get a decent answer?

[Alcala-Cordel]

What happened in Germany before 1945? I can't seem to find any statues of whoever was in charge then, how does anyone expect me to know the history?

WWII is part of pop culture. And I imagine the average person doesn't know very much about how it actually happened.

Could you ask the average person what Thomas Jefferson did in his presidency and get a decent answer?

You'd get either nothing or something abut the Louisiana Purchase. Statues aren't doing anything to teach history, they're just monuments.

[Alcala-Cordel]

The Nazis were hardcore nationalists, and their education system was filled with nationalist propaganda as well.

He's talking about the modern Germany, not the Nazi.

I know, but they were also talking positively about our own efforts to increase nationalism in schools.

[Salus Maior]

WWII is part of pop culture. And I imagine the average person doesn't know very much about how it actually happened.

Could you ask the average person what Thomas Jefferson did in his presidency and get a decent answer?

You'd get either nothing or something abut the Louisiana Purchase. Statues aren't doing anything to teach history, they're just monuments.

They are however, reminding people that history happened. That there is a history worth knowing.

[Alcala-Cordel]

You'd get either nothing or something abut the Louisiana Purchase. Statues aren't doing anything to teach history, they're just monuments.

They are however, reminding people that history happened.

Still, they portray the person the statue is of in a positive light, which isn't always deserved.

[The Emerald Legion]

They are however, reminding people that history happened.

Still, they portray the person the statue is of in a positive light, which isn't always deserved.

Of course it's deserved.

[Cisairse]

Why is there a statue of Lenin in the first place? What has he done for the United States? It would make more sense if there was a statue of one of the American communist philosophers.

Just curious.

he was based

that's all we need

[Salus Maior]

They are however, reminding people that history happened.

Still, they portray the person the statue is of in a positive light, which isn't always deserved.

That's true. But Benedict Arnold did win Saratoga.

[Atheris]

Why is there a statue of Lenin in the first place? What has he done for the United States? It would make more sense if there was a statue of one of the American communist philosophers.

Just curious.

he was based

that's all we need

he really wasn't

[Cisairse]

I very, very strongly disagree that lionization serves an important purpose.

That's because you probably support an ethical and political system that is fundamentally distinct from what we presently have and, if I had to guess, see no reason to "cling" to or glorify the triumphs of the past because they were "half measures." You probably even agree on a basic level with the principles behind iconoclasm. If I'm incorrect in this assessment, please don't hesitate to correct me.

My fundamental disagreements with our political system has nothing to do with my disgust with lionization.

By all means, cling to the glory of the past. But cling to actual glory, not made-up fairy tales and "cultural myths." That's what I have a problem with. I have a problem with people getting personally offended when they learn that Jefferson was a child rapist, because they have been practically brainwashed to believe that Jefferson was representative of all things good in the world and thus a part of him lives in every person or that person is evil.

[Luminesa]

Good question, considering much of what we know from ancient history and pre-history comes from statues and stone structures, such as Stonehenge. So, you know, imagine if we had never found those, the dearth of information we would have.

Fair. With the small caveat that the record keeping system is infinitely better now, and the architecture more likely to outlast the fall of our civilizations-I think we'll be fine if Jefferson's statues aren't on every street corner.

Being nationalists wasn't what made the Nazis bad. The freaking Soviets and Americans were patriotic and nationalistic as well. It's that whole bit about murdering tens of million of innocent people that made them evil.

Nationalism inexorably leads to evil.

The Nazis were hardcore nationalists, and their education system was filled with nationalist propaganda as well.

He's talking about the modern Germany, not the Nazi.

I mean, our record-keeping system now is pretty good, but even the Puritans kept excruciatingly-detailed records, many of which are still lost to history. Statues are definitely pretty sturdy, on the other hand. Sure, we have the internet, which has preserved things such as the Domesday Book and the Book of Kells (both of which are incredibly important documents), but we also have a good number of statues and structures (busts of Roman Emperors and things like the Parthenon) which have lasted for over two-thousand years. I don’t think there need to be hundreds of statues of Jefferson, but destroying them all also is not going to be productive. Having statues does give us an idea of who these people were and what they represent.

[Diarcesia]

he was based

that's all we need

he really wasn't

Statues are by definition based, it's at the bottom.

[Cisairse]

he really wasn't

Statues are by definition based, it's at the bottom.

based

[The Two Jerseys]

Still, they portray the person the statue is of in a positive light, which isn't always deserved.

That's true. But Benedict Arnold did win Saratoga.

And he does actually have a statue there.

[Salus Maior]

That's true. But Benedict Arnold did win Saratoga.

And he does actually have a statue there.

Yes, that's what I'm referencing.

[Kowani]

I mean, our record-keeping system now is pretty good, but even the Puritans kept excruciatingly-detailed records, many of which are still lost to history.

I feel like pointing out that the method of record keeping now involves a great deal of duplication that the Puritans just didn't have, as duplicated as they may have been.

[Fahran]

Nationalism inexorably leads to evil.

Nationalism has led to much good as well.

[Fahran]

By all means, cling to the glory of the past. But cling to actual glory, not made-up fairy tales and "cultural myths."

Importantly, cultural myths do not necessarily need to contradict historical sources or constitute fairy tales. My entire assertion throughout this has been that we can acknowledge the evil committed by culturally and historically important people while lionizing them in statues and monuments for the services they rendered to our political community and broader society.

That's what I have a problem with. I have a problem with people getting personally offended when they learn that Jefferson was a child rapist, because they have been practically brainwashed to believe that Jefferson was representative of all things good in the world and thus a part of him lives in every person or that person is evil.

Having a statue doesn't mean that you're a representative of all things good in the world. All cultural heroes, all heroes of any kind, have fundamental character and moral failings. This does not mean that cultural heroes cease to be worthwhile. They're very valuable tools in providing examples, instruction, and an ideal to citizens - and that's increasingly important at a time when values have been confused and blurred, often purposefully.

[Cisairse]

By all means, cling to the glory of the past. But cling to actual glory, not made-up fairy tales and "cultural myths."

Importantly, cultural myths do not necessarily need to contradict historical sources or constitute fairy tales. My entire assertion throughout this has been that we can acknowledge the evil committed by culturally and historically important people while lionizing them in statues and monuments for the services they rendered to our political community and broader society.

That's what I have a problem with. I have a problem with people getting personally offended when they learn that Jefferson was a child rapist, because they have been practically brainwashed to believe that Jefferson was representative of all things good in the world and thus a part of him lives in every person or that person is evil.

Having a statue doesn't mean that you're a representative of all things good in the world. All cultural heroes, all heroes of any kind, have fundamental character and moral failings. This does not mean that cultural heroes cease to be worthwhile. They're very valuable tools in providing examples, instruction, and an ideal to citizens - and that's increasingly important at a time when values have been confused and blurred, often purposefully.

Statues are not valuable tools in providing examples, instruction, and an ideal to citizens. Statues are not people. Statues do not have accomplishments.

And we shouldn't be holding up child rapists as examples of an ideal for citizens to look up to.

[Kragholm Free States]

Importantly, cultural myths do not necessarily need to contradict historical sources or constitute fairy tales. My entire assertion throughout this has been that we can acknowledge the evil committed by culturally and historically important people while lionizing them in statues and monuments for the services they rendered to our political community and broader society.


Having a statue doesn't mean that you're a representative of all things good in the world. All cultural heroes, all heroes of any kind, have fundamental character and moral failings. This does not mean that cultural heroes cease to be worthwhile. They're very valuable tools in providing examples, instruction, and an ideal to citizens - and that's increasingly important at a time when values have been confused and blurred, often purposefully.

Statues are not valuable tools in providing examples, instruction, and an ideal to citizens. Statues are not people. Statues do not have accomplishments.

And we shouldn't be holding up child rapists as examples of an ideal for citizens to look up to.

If statues are not people why do we need to destroy them because people did bad things?

[Cisairse]

Statues are not valuable tools in providing examples, instruction, and an ideal to citizens. Statues are not people. Statues do not have accomplishments.

And we shouldn't be holding up child rapists as examples of an ideal for citizens to look up to.

If statues are not people why do we need to destroy them because people did bad things?

By destroying statues we destroy the culture of lionization; we destroy the larger-than-life depiction of things which we never really larger than life.

[Kragholm Free States]

If statues are not people why do we need to destroy them because people did bad things?

By destroying statues we destroy the culture of lionization; we destroy the larger-than-life depiction of things which we never really larger than life.

But the legacy of the people depicted by those statues - in their surviving incarnations an overwhelmingly positive legacy - is indeed far larger than the lives of the individuals themselves. You support destruction based solely on a lie you've cooked up to justify destruction; it's completely circular.

[Cisairse]

By destroying statues we destroy the culture of lionization; we destroy the larger-than-life depiction of things which we never really larger than life.

But the legacy of the people depicted by those statues - in their surviving incarnations an overwhelmingly positive legacy - is indeed far larger than the lives of the individuals themselves. You support destruction based solely on a lie you've cooked up to justify destruction; it's completely circular.

Hardly. I support destruction of the lie that these historical figures were gods among men that everyone should aspire to be. That's a dangerous idea, and "cultural myths" like these are cancerous. They must be fought against.

[Fahran]

Statues are not valuable tools in providing examples, instruction, and an ideal to citizens. Statues are not people. Statues do not have accomplishments.

Statues let people know what and who we value in our history. They provide a very public, practically indelible symbol. We stand on the shoulders of giants when we make assertions about liberty, civics, and public morality. We're still benefitting from what the men who are depicted in those statues gave us even as we try to force their likenesses from honor into obscurity. That's part of why the position arguing for removal isn't a popular one at all. Only 11% want to see Washington removed. Only 15% want to see Jefferson removed.

And we shouldn't be holding up child rapists as examples of an ideal for citizens to look up to.

Jefferson wouldn't have been a rapist because of her age. Not by the standards of the time. He would have been a rapist because she was property and couldn't given consent - which is a moral issue in our time specifically. With regard to the allegations in question, the evidence is hazy at best and eight different men could have allegedly fathered Hemings's children given that our most compelling evidence is genetic evidence, specifically comparisons of known relatives of the Jefferson family to known descendants of Hemings.

[Kragholm Free States]

But the legacy of the people depicted by those statues - in their surviving incarnations an overwhelmingly positive legacy - is indeed far larger than the lives of the individuals themselves. You support destruction based solely on a lie you've cooked up to justify destruction; it's completely circular.

Hardly. I support destruction of the lie that these historical figures were gods among men that everyone should aspire to be. That's a dangerous idea, and "cultural myths" like these are cancerous. They must be fought against.

What a load of rubbish. Nobody worships these men as gods, as well you know. And what culture has not set its foundation in myth of one kind or another? You seek to destroy culture itself, whether you recognise it or not, and that is the most dangerous, cancerous idea of all.