Washington & Jefferson Statue Get Pulled Down

[Luminesa]

Maybe we could have statues of a range of different anonymous people.

Then whoever you were, there would be a statue that looks a bit like you.
And since nobody knows who it's "really" of, you can pretend it's yours!

Generic lego figures everywhere ! I quite like that.
Or will Asians complain ?

Alternatively I quite like statues like this:

I kind of like this statue.

[Cisairse]

why tf was there a statue of melania trump in slovenia

Because she was born there ?
As to why she had a statue ; being married to the "leader of the free world" can make one famous.

I was born in New Jersey but there's no statue of me there

[Salus Maior]

Because she was born there ?
As to why she had a statue ; being married to the "leader of the free world" can make one famous.

I was born in New Jersey but there's no statue of me there

Maybe do something worthy of public recognition and you'll get one.

[Cisairse]

I was born in New Jersey but there's no statue of me there

Maybe do something worthy of public recognition and you'll get one.

God, I've posted on NSG like 8000 times, you'd think the denizens would be grovelling already.

[Ifreann]

Every time I get involved in a political debate on this site someone pulls out that strawman to attack. I might not have any respect for slaveowners, rapists, imperialists, and bourgeoisie, but I have some respect for almost everyone else. Most Founding Fathers fail to cross this low bar, and as such they shouldn't have statues.

And yet Marxist ideologues should? In the US you would be quick to find that most Americans are bourgeois-sympathizers, if not collaborators.

Statue of Lenin in Seattle.

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In the ongoing war against statues, a wooden statue of Melania Trump in Slovenia was set on fire on independence day.

Who makes wooden statues?

People with spare wood.

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Its lips look like two salmon smushed together.

Apparently the mouth could open, showing massive sharkteeth.

Holy shit, I do not blame people for burning that down.

[Salus Maior]

Statue of Lenin in Seattle.

If we're toppling down statues of immoral people, I look forward to seeing that one get wrecked.

[Servilis]

Ngl thats pretty fucking stupid. If you destroy everything that has bad history behind it, you're just gonna get rid of most of history.

HOW WILL WE EVER KNOW HISTORY WITHOUT STATUES?!

[Servilis]

Statue of Lenin in Seattle.

If we're toppling down statues of immoral people, I look forward to seeing that one get wrecked.

Imagine being a TradCath and having the gall to tell people what "immoral" even means.

[Salus Maior]

If we're toppling down statues of immoral people, I look forward to seeing that one get wrecked.

Imagine being a TradCath and having the gall to tell people what "immoral" even means.

Imagine saying a TradCath isn't a moralist.

That being said, I'm not responsible for the deaths of millions of people. So at least I've got that going for me.

[Forsher]

I've been slowly thinking about the (generic) statue issue and I have decided that the Fearless Girl/Charging Bull option is the way to go.

Look, I totally understand the idea that (the most controversial) statues (in the US) were often/usually/almost always intended to serve political purposes... to symbolise the continued strength of certain ideologies, for example... rather than commemorate history (example). That's not, however, what I think the "but they're history" arguments are about. Rather, the argument is that those statues, by their existence, are historical and worth preserving for that very fact. The same way that people have problems with pulling down old houses. When they were made many of those properties were entirely mundane. The notion that they were created to represent the architectural style for the benefit of future generations is absurd. Indeed, the heritage position, is crudely "they exist and are old and that is enough". The historical argument might be "it'd be useful to have these old things around to make studying them easier".

This probably sounds... rather inhuman. It is literally saying "Not only does it not matter that they put that statue in as a terrorist action, but that they did that is why we want to keep it". That sounds awfully like "We need to keep reproducing the terrorist action that was intended", right? Well, that's why I mentioned the Fearless Girl/Charging Bull option. Here's something I wrote at the time:

What's happened here is that an originally separate piece of work has been co-opted by another statue and the result makes it appear as if there is one artwork rather than two. That's despicable. Unless, you know, your parents/caregivers told you it was okay to rip up someone else's painting. Same thing.

Looking at the statue of Fearless Girl... it would have the same meaning wherever you put it (i.e. fearless), but where it has been placed creates a false unity out of two separate things.

Adding more statues would not only create more work for public artists (moar jobs!) but it has the capacity to completely reframe and reshape the meaning of these statues without requiring their removal. What was a problem with Fearless Girl's morally reprehensible perversion of another artist's artwork, is an entirely sensible political decision. It need not be another statue (or group thereof)... putting in a wall with some appropriate street art behind a statue would work. No more terrorism and no more acting like reprehensible figures didn't exist and didn't commission physical odes to their own heroes.

In the meantime... just cover them with tarpaulins or something.

It's like a listed building on Grand Designs. The heritage remains but an entirely new meaning is possible.

Now you might be thinking "but these statues are artworks too!" And, yes, they are. And, yes, we're now moving into the whole censorship/book burning/degenerate art discussion but I'm rolling with "art second, politics first" argument. You could write the most beautiful and perfect essay ever to try and convince me that the American attitude to history is healthy. That doesn't make the essay art, it makes it artistic. It's still a political argument that I disagree with in intention. This actually goes right back to my philosophical concerns with removing statues... we owe the past nothing and have no right to bind the future (n.b. I oppose written constitutions by this same principle). For all we know, if you stick a statue of Jacinda Ardern up today, people in a hundred years will be tearing it down because she, I don't know, kept Phil Twyford in power (which is a good enough reason to tear the statue down today... Phil Twyford is terrible) or had long hair (the future is weird) or whatever. Our morality is not theirs and they are not, in any sense, us. But we are still us because of what came before and what we want of tomorrow. Denying those by, for example, tearing down statues is problematic... it allows anything to go and removes the possibility of "is that even true?" Once anything can be everything, then our individual power as political individuals is removed. It is, like all humanity's delusions about humanity's nature and capacity, a very damaging hubris.

[Ifreann]

Statue of Lenin in Seattle.

If we're toppling down statues of immoral people, I look forward to seeing that one get wrecked.

It gets vandalised all the time.

[Salus Maior]

If we're toppling down statues of immoral people, I look forward to seeing that one get wrecked.

It gets vandalised all the time.

Lit.

[Salus Maior]

Ngl thats pretty fucking stupid. If you destroy everything that has bad history behind it, you're just gonna get rid of most of history.

HOW WILL WE EVER KNOW HISTORY WITHOUT STATUES?!

Either through history channel (lol), or people actually going out of their way to read books.

I'm not too optimistic about that.

[Aeritai]

Why is there a statue of Lenin in the first place? What has he done for the United States? It would make more sense if there was a statue of one of the American communist philosophers.

Just curious.

[Fahran]

It gets vandalised all the time.

Lit.

It literally exists to be vandalized at this point. It's a meme.

[Ifreann]

Why is there a statue of Lenin in the first place? What has he done for the United States? It would make more sense if there was a statue of one of the American communist philosophers.

Just curious.

An American found the statue in a dump in I think Czechoslovakia, inhabited by a homeless man, and shipped it to the US to preserve it as a work of art. Apparently it's up for sale if you have a spare quarter mil.

[Fahran]

I very, very strongly disagree that lionization serves an important purpose.

That's because you probably support an ethical and political system that is fundamentally distinct from what we presently have and, if I had to guess, see no reason to "cling" to or glorify the triumphs of the past because they were "half measures." You probably even agree on a basic level with the principles behind iconoclasm. If I'm incorrect in this assessment, please don't hesitate to correct me.

[Alcala-Cordel]

HOW WILL WE EVER KNOW HISTORY WITHOUT STATUES?!

Either through history channel (lol), or people actually going out of their way to read books.

I'm not too optimistic about that.

What happened in Germany before 1945? I can't seem to find any statues of whoever was in charge then, how does anyone expect me to know the history?

[The Black Forrest]

HOW WILL WE EVER KNOW HISTORY WITHOUT STATUES?!

Either through history channel (lol), or people actually going out of their way to read books.

I'm not too optimistic about that.

Reading is for whimps!

[The Emerald Legion]

Either through history channel (lol), or people actually going out of their way to read books.

I'm not too optimistic about that.

What happened in Germany before 1945? I can't seem to find any statues of whoever was in charge then, how does anyone expect me to know the history?

I mean, most people actually don't know so.....

[Northern Davincia]

Either through history channel (lol), or people actually going out of their way to read books.

I'm not too optimistic about that.

What happened in Germany before 1945? I can't seem to find any statues of whoever was in charge then, how does anyone expect me to know the history?

Ignoring that the German education system exists solely to prevent national pride, the Founders left a positive legacy whereas the Nazis did not.

[Luminesa]

Ngl thats pretty fucking stupid. If you destroy everything that has bad history behind it, you're just gonna get rid of most of history.

HOW WILL WE EVER KNOW HISTORY WITHOUT STATUES?!

Good question, considering much of what we know from ancient history and pre-history comes from statues and stone structures, such as Stonehenge. So, you know, imagine if we had never found those, the dearth of information we would have.

[Alcala-Cordel]

What happened in Germany before 1945? I can't seem to find any statues of whoever was in charge then, how does anyone expect me to know the history?

Ignoring that the German education system exists solely to prevent national pride, the Founders left a positive legacy whereas the Nazis did not.

The Nazis were hardcore nationalists, and their education system was filled with nationalist propaganda as well.

[Fahran]

The Nazis were hardcore nationalists, and their education system was filled with nationalist propaganda as well.

Being nationalists wasn't what made the Nazis bad. The freaking Soviets and Americans were patriotic and nationalistic as well. It's that whole bit about murdering tens of million of innocent people that made them evil.

[Kowani]

HOW WILL WE EVER KNOW HISTORY WITHOUT STATUES?!

Good question, considering much of what we know from ancient history and pre-history comes from statues and stone structures, such as Stonehenge. So, you know, imagine if we had never found those, the dearth of information we would have.

Fair. With the small caveat that the record keeping system is infinitely better now, and the architecture more likely to outlast the fall of our civilizations-I think we'll be fine if Jefferson's statues aren't on every street corner.

The Nazis were hardcore nationalists, and their education system was filled with nationalist propaganda as well.

Being nationalists wasn't what made the Nazis bad. The freaking Soviets and Americans were patriotic and nationalistic as well. It's that whole bit about murdering tens of million of innocent people that made them evil.

Nationalism inexorably leads to evil.

Ignoring that the German education system exists solely to prevent national pride, the Founders left a positive legacy whereas the Nazis did not.

The Nazis were hardcore nationalists, and their education system was filled with nationalist propaganda as well.

He's talking about the modern Germany, not the Nazi.