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by An-Tanwir » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:59 pm
by Salus Maior » Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:10 pm
by Kowani » Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:48 am
An-Tanwir wrote:The Reformed American Republic wrote:Gulags, famines, and mass purges and murders came with that too. And no, it wasn't merely aimed at guilty people.
The gulag system was actually super progressive even by today's standards, including communal living, two weeks vacation, etc. Even if they weren't, at its peak, the gulags incarcerated fewer people than the czarist regime, and fewer people than the United States. Don't pretend we don't have political prisoners and purges in the US, especially with all those Ferguson protesters "committing suicide".
Also, famines are natural occurrences for non-industrialized agricultural civilizations, and the famine you're referring to was made worse by the hoarding of grain by the wealthy, and subsequent burning of said grain when they realized it would be redistributed.
by Purpelia » Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:23 am
Kowani wrote:An-Tanwir wrote:
The gulag system was actually super progressive even by today's standards, including communal living, two weeks vacation, etc. Even if they weren't, at its peak, the gulags incarcerated fewer people than the czarist regime, and fewer people than the United States. Don't pretend we don't have political prisoners and purges in the US, especially with all those Ferguson protesters "committing suicide".
Also, famines are natural occurrences for non-industrialized agricultural civilizations, and the famine you're referring to was made worse by the hoarding of grain by the wealthy, and subsequent burning of said grain when they realized it would be redistributed.
I see historical revisionism is back in vogue.
by Ethel mermania » Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:04 am
Komlonia wrote:our founding fathers are mostly morons
by Ethel mermania » Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:07 am
by Luminesa » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:56 am
An-Tanwir wrote:Salus Maior wrote:
Yeah, among Quakers. A minority whose reasons for immediate emancipation was religious, and so was not shared by...well, most of America at the time. Immediate emancipation wasn't popular at the time, and it would take a couple decades for that idea to grab widespread interest.
As for the notion that the Founding Fathers "sent" the common people to fight for them is laughable and demonstrably false. In many ways, the independence movement was grassroots, especially in the beginning when the upper classes were still agonizing about whether they could compromise with Britain. This can be demonstrated by the opening battles of the Revolution at Lexington and Concord which was conducted by spontaneous militias not commanded by actual officers nor Congress. And before that, during the Powder Alarm, rumor had spread that the British had bombarded Boston in retaliation to the Tea Party and approximately 10-30 thousand New Englanders had armed themselves and formed militias and marched to Boston. Again, without commands from the upper class. This was a popular movement.
A popular movement spurred by upper-class ideology, specifically liberalism. I'd argue that, in the middle ages, most uprisings to replace one lord with another were popular movements. Neither those movements nor the American revolution culminated in the liberation of all people from oppression, rather, they liberated them from a particular oppressor.
by Luminesa » Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:57 am
Purpelia wrote:Kowani wrote:I see historical revisionism is back in vogue.
To be fair he is right about the famines. The Soviet famines are often blamed on the government but in reality they were simply the unavoidable result of a country that already had severe food shortages before WW1, most of its breadbasket burned during WW1, a revolution BECAUSE of food shortages during WW1 and than a bloody civil war that saw what was left of its rural population conscripted and its fields burned again and again and again for basically half a decade. By the 1920's their agriculture was ruined to the point that short of divine intervention famines were inevitable. The only thing the communists really did was shift the suffering from their urban and industrial centers where people would start a revolution over food riots into the rural regions where they, for the above mentioned reasons couldn't. If anything it's a miracle that the Soviet Union managed to bounce back its agriculture as good as it did in time for WW2 instead of collapsing under its own hunger the way the old empire did.
by Ifreann » Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:04 am
by Luminesa » Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:12 am
An-Tanwir wrote:The Reformed American Republic wrote:Gulags, famines, and mass purges and murders came with that too. And no, it wasn't merely aimed at guilty people.
The gulag system was actually super progressive even by today's standards, including communal living, two weeks vacation, etc. Even if they weren't, at its peak, the gulags incarcerated fewer people than the czarist regime, and fewer people than the United States. Don't pretend we don't have political prisoners and purges in the US, especially with all those Ferguson protesters "committing suicide".
Also, famines are natural occurrences for non-industrialized agricultural civilizations, and the famine you're referring to was made worse by the hoarding of grain by the wealthy, and subsequent burning of said grain when they realized it would be redistributed.
by Fahran » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:22 am
Ifreann wrote:Did you? Seems to me you traded one system in which the American people had very little representation for another system in which the American people had very little representation. And even now you have huge numbers of Americans disenfranchised, you have widespread voter suppression, and you still have an electoral system designed to take away your ability to rule yourselves.
An-Tanwir wrote:The gulag system was actually super progressive...
by Purpelia » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:28 am
Luminesa wrote:Purpelia wrote:To be fair he is right about the famines. The Soviet famines are often blamed on the government but in reality they were simply the unavoidable result of a country that already had severe food shortages before WW1, most of its breadbasket burned during WW1, a revolution BECAUSE of food shortages during WW1 and than a bloody civil war that saw what was left of its rural population conscripted and its fields burned again and again and again for basically half a decade. By the 1920's their agriculture was ruined to the point that short of divine intervention famines were inevitable. The only thing the communists really did was shift the suffering from their urban and industrial centers where people would start a revolution over food riots into the rural regions where they, for the above mentioned reasons couldn't. If anything it's a miracle that the Soviet Union managed to bounce back its agriculture as good as it did in time for WW2 instead of collapsing under its own hunger the way the old empire did.
Daily reminder that Holodomor was not an accident.
by The Two Jerseys » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:37 am
Purpelia wrote:Its basically the trolley problem only in communist and with grain instead of a railroad.
by An-Tanwir » Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:59 am
Fahran wrote:An-Tanwir wrote:The gulag system was actually super progressive...
No.
See: all the other arguments presented above.
Also, we should probably at least attempt to tie this into the thread's subject matter. Do you favor erecting statues of Marx, Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin? Why would we do that if they're all Euros who never set foot over here? Wouldn't Eugene Debs or Emma Goldman be better choices?
by Ifreann » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:18 am
Fahran wrote:Ifreann wrote:Did you? Seems to me you traded one system in which the American people had very little representation for another system in which the American people had very little representation. And even now you have huge numbers of Americans disenfranchised, you have widespread voter suppression, and you still have an electoral system designed to take away your ability to rule yourselves.
We have much more representation than we did under British rule. Parliament didn't need to engage in voter suppression or in the disenfranchisement of prisoners because we didn't really get a say in its proceedings at all. We had more local governance that got overruled by Parliament and that's what made the supporters of the American Revolution do what they did. It's still a marked improvement all things considered.
by No State Here » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:29 am
An-Tanwir wrote:The gulag system was actually super progressive
by Ifreann » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:35 am
by Nobel Hobos 2 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:37 am
by Northern Davincia » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:53 am
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."
by Kowani » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:21 am
Fahran wrote:Ifreann wrote:Did you? Seems to me you traded one system in which the American people had very little representation for another system in which the American people had very little representation. And even now you have huge numbers of Americans disenfranchised, you have widespread voter suppression, and you still have an electoral system designed to take away your ability to rule yourselves.
We have much more representation than we did under British rule.
by The Black Forrest » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:37 am
Kowani wrote:Fahran wrote:We have much more representation than we did under British rule.
This isn't really true at the National level, though perhaps it is for the local.Ethel mermania wrote:
And the entire regiment. Because this movement is about tearing down, not fixing.
Which is a shame, there are things that do need fixing.
And there are things that need tearing down as well.
by Kowani » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:46 am
The Black Forrest wrote:Kowani wrote:This isn't really true at the National level, though perhaps it is for the local.
And there are things that need tearing down as well.
If the fixing part is not addressed, the tearing down solved little.
by The Black Forrest » Tue Jul 07, 2020 11:48 am
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