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by Ifreann » Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:41 am
by The Emerald Legion » Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:49 am
by The Emerald Legion » Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:55 am
by The Greater Ohio Valley » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:05 am
by Northern Davincia » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:07 am
Ifreann wrote:So you don't want people to actually be able to own tanks, you just want to change who's stopping them from owning tanks.
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."
by Ifreann » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:16 am
Northern Davincia wrote:Ifreann wrote:So you don't want people to actually be able to own tanks, you just want to change who's stopping them from owning tanks.
I foresee the production of cheaper civilian-grade tanks, lighter in mass and more maneuverable than heavy tanks. The market is good with innovation after all.
Putting aside this tangent for now, the Founders' statues should remain in place.
by Northern Davincia » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:22 am
Ifreann wrote:Nah.
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."
by Ethel mermania » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:27 am
by Tarsonis » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:30 am
by WeKnow » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:32 am
by The Emerald Legion » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:37 am
The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:The Emerald Legion wrote:
This is why we need civilian marketed tanks.
Any hypothetical civilian marketed tank is not going to live up to the quality of an M1A2 Abrams, Leopard 2A6, Challenger 2 or Leclerc. Best you'll realistically get is something with the armor of an LAV-25 and the gun of an early-model Panzer III. You're not going to get something that can go toe-to-toe with modern main battle tanks, and even if you could, only the super rich would be able to afford something like that (which they already can provided they fill out the proper paper work.)
by Fahran » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:01 am
WeKnow wrote:Until these events in the past couple of months, I was always perplexed at the 'pride' and 'make great again' ethos many felt towards a nation that was founded via pillaging and brutally unfair white male elitism.
While I understand that this seems outrageous (the taking down of statues in such a grotesque manner), I find it fascinating that for all these years (we're talking over 2 centuries) no one at any point felt there was an issue with celebrating and deeply respecting the racist and violent founders of US.
I can see both sides to this, I just happen to be more with the idea that these statues never deserved respect in the first place (other than being fine pieces of art).
Just because you were the first politician in a legacy doesn't make you the best or even close to the 'most good person' out of the lot. Respect for what you helped build is fine but respect for you as a person comes from what you did in spite of the immorality of your time (not how you succumbed to it).
by San Kalungsod Saludong » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:07 am
Fahran wrote:WeKnow wrote:Until these events in the past couple of months, I was always perplexed at the 'pride' and 'make great again' ethos many felt towards a nation that was founded via pillaging and brutally unfair white male elitism.
While I understand that this seems outrageous (the taking down of statues in such a grotesque manner), I find it fascinating that for all these years (we're talking over 2 centuries) no one at any point felt there was an issue with celebrating and deeply respecting the racist and violent founders of US.
I can see both sides to this, I just happen to be more with the idea that these statues never deserved respect in the first place (other than being fine pieces of art).
Just because you were the first politician in a legacy doesn't make you the best or even close to the 'most good person' out of the lot. Respect for what you helped build is fine but respect for you as a person comes from what you did in spite of the immorality of your time (not how you succumbed to it).
If we cannot respect the United States because it has a history of engaging in warfare against people who, at times, engaged in warfare against it, we're not going to have a lot of respect for the Sioux or Cheyenne either given that they acquired the Black Hills by ethnically cleansing the Arikara (archaeological evidence suggests multiple massacres occurred in the wake of a major smallpox epidemic) and absorbing them culturally and linguistically after a de facto conquest.
We can extrapolate this lack of respect to a wide number of other societies, cultures, and polities as well, as I asserted to counter previous arguments to this effect. The Zulu initiated the Mfecane, which led to around two million deaths, and, as such, they would deserve no respect by this standard. The Asante were deeply complicit in the Trans-Atlantic slave trade and built their wealth from it, and, as such, they would deserve no respect by this standard. Any Arab culture beyond the Arabian peninsula and Horn of Africa is the result of deliberate conquest and often mandatory conversion and, as such, they would deserve no respect by this standard. And I could go on.
These cultures and polities warrant respect because, despite their moral failings and the atrocities their members may have committed at one point or another, they have something worthwhile and unique to offer the world, especially their own sons and daughters. The United States has given us a long-enduring political system that has consistently been preferable to the tyrannies that have prevailed else-where, has given us beautiful monuments and symbols, has given us a unique social order that is often characterized as milquetoast by those who romanticize and fetishize cultures from the Old World, and much more. The Sioux, Cheyenne, Zulu, Asante, and Arab cultures and societies gave us quite a bit too. That's why they all deserve some modicum of respect. That doesn't mean you don't call them on their atrocities but you don't dismiss their existence or importance either.
by WeKnow » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:16 am
Fahran wrote:We can extrapolate this lack of respect to a wide number of other societies, cultures, and polities as well, as I asserted to counter previous arguments to this effect. The Zulu initiated the Mfecane, which led to around two million deaths, and, as such, they would deserve no respect by this standard.
by The Emerald Legion » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:51 am
WeKnow wrote:Fahran wrote:We can extrapolate this lack of respect to a wide number of other societies, cultures, and polities as well, as I asserted to counter previous arguments to this effect. The Zulu initiated the Mfecane, which led to around two million deaths, and, as such, they would deserve no respect by this standard.
I was referring what was done to the natives to even begin US, let alone the sheerest irony that the same people who are caucasian and resultant of immigrants pillaging upon invasion are now the type to say they are the natives and who loathe all outsiders (even kind and well-meaning ones). I speak not just of the horrific corruption and conquest mentality that US has towards the middle east or Africa during its slave trade but that the very nation itself is founded by and for white supremacist psychopaths. There was not a single founder who was not complicit in it and any who spoke out against it were silenced and bullied by those very founders.
Whether you are Zulu or American or any ethnicity at all, celebrate and respect the parts of your history you think deserve that pride. If you choose to celebrate disgusting parts of your history and glorify people who were very significant in those horrors and you then glorify them as nigh-saintly, don't be shocked when an outraged protest many generations later happens to feel the opposite way. It's only natural, in my eyes at least.
Perhaps take a read of these:
https://www.alainet.org/en/articulo/178859
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... sociopaths
https://allthatsinteresting.com/george-washington-facts
by Ethel mermania » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:01 am
The Emerald Legion wrote:The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:Any hypothetical civilian marketed tank is not going to live up to the quality of an M1A2 Abrams, Leopard 2A6, Challenger 2 or Leclerc. Best you'll realistically get is something with the armor of an LAV-25 and the gun of an early-model Panzer III. You're not going to get something that can go toe-to-toe with modern main battle tanks, and even if you could, only the super rich would be able to afford something like that (which they already can provided they fill out the proper paper work.)
Does it really have to? Again, sure quality will be shit. But American Civilians have more guns than the Russian and Chinese military put together. Do you think it will be any different with tanks if the door is opened?
by Atheris » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:40 am
Ethel mermania wrote:The Emerald Legion wrote:
Does it really have to? Again, sure quality will be shit. But American Civilians have more guns than the Russian and Chinese military put together. Do you think it will be any different with tanks if the door is opened?
Certainly make my friday night commute on the long island expressway quicker and a lot more entertaining
by The Two Jerseys » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:51 pm
Atheris wrote:Ethel mermania wrote:Certainly make my friday night commute on the long island expressway quicker and a lot more entertaining
Traffic got you in a jam?
Use your USA-1 tank!
"Before the USA-1, I was stuck in LA traffic for three hours. Now, there's nothing standing in my way!"
What are you waiting for? Get the USA-1 today!
by Salus Maior » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:56 pm
Atheris wrote:Ethel mermania wrote:Certainly make my friday night commute on the long island expressway quicker and a lot more entertaining
Traffic got you in a jam?
Use your USA-1 tank!
"Before the USA-1, I was stuck in LA traffic for three hours. Now, there's nothing standing in my way!"
What are you waiting for? Get the USA-1 today!
by The Greater Ohio Valley » Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:25 pm
The Emerald Legion wrote:Does it really have to?.
The Emerald Legion wrote:But American Civilians have more guns than the Russian and Chinese military put together. Do you think it will be any different with tanks if the door is opened?
by Ors Might » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:20 pm
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