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by Galloism » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:16 pm
by Diarcesia » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:19 pm
by The Marlborough » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:20 pm
by The Reformed American Republic » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:20 pm
by The Marlborough » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:20 pm
New Kvenland wrote:Luminesa wrote:Teddy Roosevelt's statue is being taken-down now...despite the fact that he fought against corruption in the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Reminder that these mobs don't care about Native Americans, despite their fight against racism, and Natives suffer from poverty, broken homes, and violence almost at the same rates as African Americans. He also fought for workers' rights, preserved our National Parks, and fought against corporate monopolies and the mass media. He was never a perfect man and had some questionable personal views, but he was one of our better presidents, all things considered. And fought against corruption against Native Americans. This is nuts.
He was also comically war-happy, which is cute and funny until he celebrates the massacre of a thousand Filipinos. He did a ton of good, he shouldn't be erased from history or anything, but it's an affront to the thousands of people he directly or indirectly hurt to build prominent statues of him.
The counterargument is that no one's perfect, of course, which doesn't really counter the argument at all. These guys are all messed up, even the "good" ones like Lincoln and Teddy. Frankly there should only be statues of abstract representations, like the Statue of Liberty or the Motherland Calls, or of Jesus Christ and the Buddha and other righteous figures, representing anyone else in such a prominent way implies that they're just as perfect and the people they hurt either are lying or deserved it
by Luminesa » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:22 pm
The Marlborough wrote:I thought statues were supposed to be okay if they were part of a museum and had explanations for them, which the Teddy statue does have? :thonk:
by Diarcesia » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:22 pm
by Luminesa » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:22 pm
The Marlborough wrote:New Kvenland wrote:
He was also comically war-happy, which is cute and funny until he celebrates the massacre of a thousand Filipinos. He did a ton of good, he shouldn't be erased from history or anything, but it's an affront to the thousands of people he directly or indirectly hurt to build prominent statues of him.
The counterargument is that no one's perfect, of course, which doesn't really counter the argument at all. These guys are all messed up, even the "good" ones like Lincoln and Teddy. Frankly there should only be statues of abstract representations, like the Statue of Liberty or the Motherland Calls, or of Jesus Christ and the Buddha and other righteous figures, representing anyone else in such a prominent way implies that they're just as perfect and the people they hurt either are lying or deserved it
Or maybe we can still commemorate flawed heroes of a nation's past. *shrug*
by Xmara » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:23 pm
by The Reformed American Republic » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:28 pm
by New Kvenland » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:29 pm
Diarcesia wrote:To those who agree with the statues of Washington, Jefferson, and the like needing to be taken down, let's invert the question: whose or what statues should be brought up and constructed/maintained?
by US-SSR » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:39 pm
Aeritai wrote:US-SSR wrote:
Washington, Jefferson and the rest of them didn't care a damn about rights of the citizens, they coopted the language of John Locke, Rousseau and others to create a system to maximize the interests of the capitalistic exploiters and enslavers they saw as the natural leaders of society. The basis of the prosperity and power of the USA throughout its history is taking land from natives and setting enslaved Africans to work on it. The "freedom" it fights for in foreign nations large and small is the freedom of its bankers and industrialists to continue to exploit the labor and resources of the rest of the world to enrich themselves.
As I say, about time their statues get pulled down.
Do you hear the people sing?
Singing the songs of angry men?
It is the music of the people
Who will not be slaves again!
When the beating of your heart
Echoes the beating of the drums
There is a life about to start
When tomorrow comes!
Can you provide sources that claim Washington and Jefferson didn't care about the people please?
by Aureumterra » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:41 pm
Luminesa wrote:Teddy Roosevelt's statue is being taken-down now...despite the fact that he fought against corruption in the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Reminder that these mobs don't care about Native Americans, despite their fight against racism, and Natives suffer from poverty, broken homes, and violence almost at the same rates as African Americans. He also fought for workers' rights, preserved our National Parks, and fought against corporate monopolies and the mass media. He was never a perfect man and had some questionable personal views, but he was one of our better presidents, all things considered. And fought against corruption against Native Americans. This is nuts.
by US-SSR » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:45 pm
Diarcesia wrote:Diviz wrote:The same can be said about the Nazis, that they were product of their time. This does not mean that they desirve a statue in Germany.
Should Ulysses S. Grant, a one-time slaveowner who later contributed much to ending the Confederacy's bid to keep slavery alive, have his statues taken down? Should he be forgotten in history? Why or why not?
The Reformed American Republic wrote:People who are offended at our founding fathers having statues should leave the country.
by Saiwania » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:48 pm
Diarcesia wrote:Should Ulysses S. Grant, a one-time slaveowner who later contributed much to ending the Confederacy's bid to keep slavery alive, have his statues taken down? Should he be forgotten in history? Why or why not?
by Aeritai » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:49 pm
US-SSR wrote:Aeritai wrote:
Can you provide sources that claim Washington and Jefferson didn't care about the people please?
Here you go.
by Salus Maior » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:50 pm
US-SSR wrote:Aeritai wrote:
Can you provide sources that claim Washington and Jefferson didn't care about the people please?
Here you go.
by Diarcesia » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:51 pm
US-SSR wrote:Diarcesia wrote:Should Ulysses S. Grant, a one-time slaveowner who later contributed much to ending the Confederacy's bid to keep slavery alive, have his statues taken down? Should he be forgotten in history? Why or why not?
1. Taking down a statue = / = forgetting history or any historical figure. In the specific case of statues of Confederates erected decades after the Civil War as symbols of white supremacy, defending them is at best forgetting and at worst denying history.
2. The people are deciding which statues stay up and which come down. If the processes of government do not move fast enough the people are taking the task of removing offensive statues on themselves.
3. How nice it must be to make smug, pointless comparisons and analogies from positions of privilege rather than openly dealing with the oppression and dehumanization inflicted and felt by erecting statues to honor enslavers, colonizers, white supremacists, racists, etc., etc.
by Salus Maior » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:53 pm
US-SSR wrote:2. The people are deciding which statues stay up and which come down. If the processes of government do not move fast enough the people are taking the task of removing offensive statues on themselves.
by US-SSR » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:54 pm
by The Marlborough » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:55 pm
US-SSR wrote:Diarcesia wrote:Should Ulysses S. Grant, a one-time slaveowner who later contributed much to ending the Confederacy's bid to keep slavery alive, have his statues taken down? Should he be forgotten in history? Why or why not?
1. Taking down a statue = / = forgetting history or any historical figure. In the specific case of statues of Confederates erected decades after the Civil War as symbols of white supremacy, defending them is at best forgetting and at worst denying history.
2. The people are deciding which statues stay up and which come down. If the processes of government do not move fast enough the people are taking the task of removing offensive statues on themselves.
3. How nice it must be to make smug, pointless comparisons and analogies from positions of privilege rather than openly dealing with the oppression and dehumanization inflicted and felt by erecting statues to honor enslavers, colonizers, white supremacists, racists, etc., etc.The Reformed American Republic wrote:People who are offended at our founding fathers having statues should leave the country.
People who are offended at people tearing down statues of our founding fathers should leave the country.
by The Marlborough » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:56 pm
by US-SSR » Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:01 pm
Diarcesia wrote:US-SSR wrote:3. How nice it must be to make smug, pointless comparisons and analogies from positions of privilege rather than openly dealing with the oppression and dehumanization inflicted and felt by erecting statues to honor enslavers, colonizers, white supremacists, racists, etc., etc.
I'm genuinely curious what made you think that. To whom is this directed? Why? How can it be addressed?
by Major-Tom » Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:01 pm
The Marlborough wrote:Wasn't Zinn's book absolutely trashed by historians as being overly simplistic and rife with errors and cherry picking?
by Diarcesia » Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:03 pm
US-SSR wrote:Diarcesia wrote:I'm genuinely curious what made you think that. To whom is this directed? Why? How can it be addressed?
To white people who are so fragile any suggestion that they or the system that privileges them might be based on the oppression of nonwhites triggers a visceral negative response, usually followed by tortured or inapt analogies designed to deny any personal or institutional racism. It can be addressed by white people honestly and openly owning their own privilege, listening to the stories of oppressed peoples and considering the solutions they propose to the oppression they face.
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