Washington & Jefferson Statue Get Pulled Down

[Cisairse]

coerced into relations.

Raped.

He was indeed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Hemings

15-16 isn't a child, technically. Not that it makes it much better.

I guess Jefferson had plenty in common with our current batch of politicians.

14 would definitely be considered child rape by our modern legal system.

[Kanadorika]

It's bad enough that Grant's legacy has been continuously shat on by last causers for the past century. He's already been reduced to some ahistorical corrupt drunkard who merely got lucky in the civil war.

Why must this man be further dragged through the mud? He did what he felt was right and saved his nation, becoming increasingly sympathetic to abolitionism as time went on. He's the archetypical American success story, born poor and going on to become one of the greatest Americans of all time.

For God's sake don't attack a Grant statue when Lee's statues remain across the country. Ive already seen social media posts from neoconfederates nonchalantly cheering on toppling Grant's statue, even when they were up in arms threatening to shoot people who did the same to statues of traitors.

[Luminesa]

coerced into relations.

Raped.

15-16 isn't a child, technically. Not that it makes it much better.

I guess Jefferson had plenty in common with our current batch of politicians.

14 would definitely be considered child rape by our modern legal system.

That’s what “coerced into relations” means, yes?

There’s not an easy way to handle this situation, and toppling statues wantonly is not going to solve it.

[Atheris]

Raped.



14 would definitely be considered child rape by our modern legal system.

That’s what “coerced into relations” means, yes?

There’s not an easy way to handle this situation, and toppling statues wantonly is not going to solve it.

If you meant to say that she was raped, then say she was raped. It's not rocket science.

[Luminesa]

That’s what “coerced into relations” means, yes?

There’s not an easy way to handle this situation, and toppling statues wantonly is not going to solve it.

If you meant to say that she was raped, then say she was raped. It's not rocket science.

Will do. My apologies. I’ll edit my post.

[The Grims]

coerced into relations.

Raped.

15-16 isn't a child, technically. Not that it makes it much better.

I guess Jefferson had plenty in common with our current batch of politicians.

14 would definitely be considered child rape by our modern legal system.

Depends on the country. The age of consent in Japan is 13 for instance, hence all those animes with short skirted 14 year olds.

[Necroghastia]

Raped.



14 would definitely be considered child rape by our modern legal system.

Depends on the country. The age of consent in Japan is 13 for instance, hence all those animes with short skirted 14 year olds.

Common misconception - IIRC while that's the law on the national level, not a single prefecture has it that low.

[Cetacea]

Raped.



14 would definitely be considered child rape by our modern legal system.

Depends on the country. The age of consent in Japan is 13 for instance, hence all those animes with short skirted 14 year olds.

There are only 4 US states that entirely ban marriage before 18, there are still 14 states with no minimum age and In 2001 a girl age 10 was married in Tennessee.

So was Sally Hemmings considered to be married to her master Jefferson?

[Risottia]

I feel like schools should teach about the good and the bad deeds the founding fathers did, so kids can judge for themselves rather they like or dislike the founding fathers.

Teach REAL history: the "founding fathers" were a disgraceful bunch of rebel scum paid by the Frenchies.

Make America Great British Again.

[Cetacea]

I feel like schools should teach about the good and the bad deeds the founding fathers did, so kids can judge for themselves rather they like or dislike the founding fathers.

Teach REAL history: the "founding fathers" were a disgraceful bunch of rebel scum paid by the Frenchies.

Make America Great British Again.

I wish NS had a like button

[James_xenoland]

Once again.. Fuck these rioters!

This shit is going to lead to a massive backslash and possibly several people being driven into more radical positions like white supremacy.

Anyone who could be "driven" to white supremacy was already a white supremacist, just afraid to admit it. People who need to be delicately handled lest they become racists are already racists, and are just dicking you around by pretending that if you very carefully appease them they will support you. No one changes their political, social, and economic beliefs like flipping a switch just because of one act of vandalism.

Yes, people like you can keep telling yourself fallacies like this and see were things continue to go. The insanity and sheer pompousness of the "Fuck engaging with people, if they don't already think like me then they need to be silenced/ruined/blacklisted/told to fuck-off!" is both really hilarious and dangerously deranged. Not so much missing the forest for the trees as it is missing the ability to comprehend the difference in the first place. Small thinking for small closed minds.

coerced into relations.

Raped.

15-16 isn't a child, technically. Not that it makes it much better.

I guess Jefferson had plenty in common with our current batch of politicians.

14 would definitely be considered child rape by our modern legal system.

Umm.. There isn't a marriage age limit in a good number of places even in modern times... not to mention that the legal age in many even first world countries (over half of europe) is <16. And it's only went up to this point. In older eras that was normal. Hell, throughout most of human history, 16 would have been considered old to be starting a family.

I mean I can understand that, by all means, but this could turn into a slippery slope. Jefferson was a jerk toward slaves, but he also founded universities, libraries, and wrote the Declaration of Independence.

Yes, and he also raped children.

Are they gonna destroy the University of Virginia since it was founded by him? It's like...I want to end racism. But I'm not sure if this is the way to do it. We need actual policy-changes, a wise state that cares for its citizens when it's not an election year.

The University of Virginia is not a monument to a child rapist.

Bullshit! See above and FO!

The net for "racist" gets wider and wider. They're already toppling Saints, Sundiata. I don't know how clear this can get.

Their demands of the public are not unreasonable.

Injustice towards the black community is injustice towards all communities.

Good to know.. Now we just need the actual modern injustice. *nods*

It was never about racism, they just hate all white people.

So then it is all about racism.

This is both insane and incredibly sad.

Agreed.

QFT!

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Let's engage with people by roundly abusing them instead. That always broadens their minds.

[The Reformed American Republic]

I mean I can understand that, by all means, but this could turn into a slippery slope. Jefferson was a jerk toward slaves, but he also founded universities, libraries, and wrote the Declaration of Independence. Are they gonna destroy the University of Virginia since it was founded by him? It's like...I want to end racism. But I'm not sure if this is the way to do it. We need actual policy-changes, a wise state that cares for its citizens when it's not an election year.

Policy changes are important. But a cultural change-bringing down deified people, is of utmost importance, too. We have elevated the founding fathers to a level of perfection that is literally inhuman, having swept much of their flaws under the rug.
The University of Virginia, to my knowledge, doesn’t glorify anything (except maybe learning). A statue does.

And this is why I want to restrict immigration. So people like you don't come here with the intent of destroying our culture.

[James_xenoland]

It's like they actually want 4 more years of trump despite what they claim.

Policy changes are important. But a cultural change-bringing down deified people, is of utmost importance, too. We have elevated the founding fathers to a level of perfection that is literally inhuman, having swept much of their flaws under the rug.
The University of Virginia, to my knowledge, doesn’t glorify anything (except maybe learning). A statue does.

And this is why I want to restrict immigration. So people like you don't come here with the intent of destroying our culture.

Actually.. very much this. I can't disagree.

[Lucja]

Does anyone else remember when people were claiming only the statues of Confederate generals would be torn down and this would not lead to a slippery slope where other statues started being destroyed?

[The Reformed American Republic]

And this is why I want to restrict immigration. So people like you don't come here with the intent of destroying our culture.

Actually.. very much this. I can't disagree.

It's very obvious that there are people who now want a Chinese style cultural revolution here, regardless of how much they deny it. I don't care if I get denounced for that position, as it is obviously the truth.

[Gravlen]

Nevermind that Jefferson wanted to put in an anti-slavery clause in the Constitution, and Washington freed his slaves.

But what do I know, I've just read about them.

Jefferson may have wanted to do that, but he didn't, and he was quite comfortable not only keeping slaves but having his own children be slaves.

[Sundiata]

Good to know.. Now we just need the actual modern injustice. *nods*

If you're completely blind to the oppression of black people then and now you're operating beyond the pale and we will not carry this discussion any further.

Good day sir.

[Greed and Death]

I would put Wilson with Jackson.

I would put Columbus in the ultimately helped the world group.

how did Columbus help the world? He may have helped spain but afterwards he didnt do much that was beneficial. Columbus was also lost and kept insisting that what he had stumbled on as Asia.
Mytholising him as a symbol of discovery and colonialism is part of the reason that Statues are best put in museums where they can be contextualised rather than out in public spaces as national monuments

The Colombian exchange doubled the carrying capacity of the world. You find very few people in history who's work led that. This is also what sets Columbus apart from the vikings, the vikings didn't bring live stock and wheat to the new world and they didn't bring corn and potatoes to the old world. They told no one about their discovery and forgot about it within a generation. Columbus's discovery led to a vast change in how we live people in the old world ate better and so would people in the new world but for small pox.

Also he did not die thinking he was in Asia. Read the journal from his third voyage

I have come to believe that this is a mighty continent which was hitherto unknown.

is stated. Seriously stop listening to those whose ultimate source is Howard Zinn. There are reasons he was only allowed to teach political science despite having a history phd.

[The Reformed American Republic]

Good to know.. Now we just need the actual modern injustice. *nods*

If you're completely blind to the oppression of black people then and now you're operating beyond the pale and we will not carry this discussion any further.

Good day sir.

More like we shouldn't destroy our culture just because our Founders were not perfect.

[Heloin]

If you're completely blind to the oppression of black people then and now you're operating beyond the pale and we will not carry this discussion any further.

Good day sir.

More like we shouldn't destroy our culture just because our Founders were not perfect.

American culture can't survive without constant praise and reverence to the founding fathers. Even recognising that they were by and large flawed and sometimes awful individuals will kill the whole nation.

[Saiwania]

Yes, and he also raped children.

Those older than 12 years of age weren't considered children back then in the 18th century. And if she was a slave in a time where slavery was legal and common, they were considered property in the same sense as a chair or desk is property. Hence, it was fully within Jefferson's rights to do as he wished with them. It might be senseless and bad, but the owner of a chair is still fully within their right to break that chair into pieces if that is what they want to do.

[The Reformed American Republic]

More like we shouldn't destroy our culture just because our Founders were not perfect.

American culture can't survive without constant praise and reverence to the founding fathers. Even recognising that they were by and large flawed and sometimes awful individuals will kill the whole nation.

People admit they have flaws all of the time. The noble experiment in republicanism is what they are praised for, especially when they lived in an era dominated by powerful monarchs. No one walks on water. I will not support any movement that wants to purge anything cultural that is not politically correct by left-wing standards.

[Evacillian]

Does anyone else remember when people were claiming only the statues of Confederate generals would be torn down and this would not lead to a slippery slope where other statues started being destroyed?

Violence and Vandalism only lead to more Violence and Vandalism. Leaderless and uncontrollable mobs do not heed specific rules- like only Statues of Confederate Generals should be torn down. I will not be surprised if they pull down MLK statues or Gandhi Statues or any prominent Civil Liberties Monument.

[New Bremerton]

Actually.. very much this. I can't disagree.

It's very obvious that there are people who now want a Chinese style cultural revolution here, regardless of how much they deny it. I don't care if I get denounced for that position, as it is obviously the truth.

That's literally how I described BLM and the woke Left in a different thread. A lot of what they're doing reminds me of Maoist China. I can understand removing Confederate statues given their association with treason and slavery, and even then, they are still of historical value and ought to be stowed away rather than destroyed, but tearing down monuments to Washington and Jefferson is a step too far.

The American Founding Fathers were liberal, progressive visionaries of their time, and I have the utmost respect for them. If it wasn't for them, America wouldn't be the shining beacon of liberty and democracy that it is today and the world would be a very different place.

This kind of Byzantine/Islamic-style iconoclasm originates from the same breed of radical leftists who have just erected a monument to mass-murderer and Communist tyrant Vladimir Lenin in the German city of Gelsenkirchen. The statue, which is newly-erected and therefore possesses zero historical value, should ideally be auctioned off to a Communist tankie or a historian for private safekeeping with proceeds to be donated to anti-communist and anti-CCP causes such as the fight for freedom in HK, but given that the statue appears to be privately-owned, freedom of expression must take precedence, especially because it's so offensive to so many.

Which gives me an amazing idea. Publicly-owned monuments to Confederate leaders could be auctioned off to the highest bidder with proceeds to be donated to NGOs committed to ending modern slavery and human trafficking around the world.