Washington & Jefferson Statue Get Pulled Down

[Jack Thomas Lang]

Minimizing something does not make that thing acceptable. Could we try not strawmanning?

It doesn't minimise a damn thing. That's a bullshit argument you can't even prove.

[Kowani]

Minimizing something does not make that thing acceptable. Could we try not strawmanning?

It doesn't minimise a damn thing. That's a bullshit argument you can't even prove.

Sigh. When you glorify someone (as statues almost inherently do), by necessity, you minimize their flaws. If you don’t hide them completely, you diminish their importance.
This is an inherent part of…well, art itself.

[Salus Maior]

Nevermind that Jefferson wanted to put in an anti-slavery clause in the Constitution, and Washington freed his slaves.

But what do I know, I've just read about them.

[Salus Maior]

It doesn't minimise a damn thing. That's a bullshit argument you can't even prove.

Sigh. When you glorify someone (as statues almost inherently do), by necessity, you minimize their flaws. If you don’t hide them completely, you diminish their importance.
This is an inherent part of…well, art itself.

I'd say their positives were foundational to this country, so glorifying them as the founders of this country is valid.

I say that as someone who doesn't like Jefferson, although I am a fan of Washington.

[The Lone Alliance]

Here's the thing, though: There's probably hundreds of statues of them, and in more fitting places than in Portland, Oregon. You could maybe make a case for Jefferson, but honestly, what's the point of a Washington statue in Portland?

What's the point of a Lenin statue in Seattle?

Cause people wanted it there, that's all that there needs to be to have a statue somewhere.

[Salus Maior]

Here's the thing, though: There's probably hundreds of statues of them, and in more fitting places than in Portland, Oregon. You could maybe make a case for Jefferson, but honestly, what's the point of a Washington statue in Portland?

Because he was the first President, won the war of independence, and set pretty much all the precedents for limited Presidency, and overall I'd say was one of our country's better presidents?

[Jack Thomas Lang]

Sigh. When you glorify someone (as statues almost inherently do), by necessity, you minimize their flaws. If you don’t hide them completely, you diminish their importance.
This is an inherent part of…well, art itself.

Is that it? And here I thought you were complaining that these statues were minimising racism or slavery in society (glad you recognise that's ridiculous). Nope, you're unhappy with them because their statues don't represent the entirety of their lives and actions. And as you literally said, that's necessary and a normal part of art. So I guess that's a minimising of sorts, but as an argument for iconoclasm, really weak sauce. Literally add one or two lines to the plaque (which less barbaric councils and the like are doing) and this becomes a non-issue.

[Luminesa]

I've never heard of him being a child rapist, unironically.

He was indeed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Hemings

Ahhh. I knew about Sally Hemings, I didn't know she was only 14 when she was raped.

I mean, I look at it this way. We do keep a lot of artifacts, at the very least, to remind us of our history. We have models of the atomic bomb. We have battleships, guns, and other weapons preserved. We have footage of the scene at Auschwitz when the camp was liberated in 1945, the piles and piles of dying and dead bodies in the camp. We have a lot of ugly history preserved, whether to remind us of what has happened or to remind us of what we are capable of doing. It's a hard balance to make, to explain what should be preserved and what should not be. While the statues themselves are not always historical, in many cases they are, and they should not be knocked-down by the common people. This incites people to unlawful behavior, and allows them to make the decisions which the state should make. If destruction of property is not punished, then it is allowed in all cases, and chaos reigns.

The state needs to take control of these situations. This is the only way we will have peace. If they want to take down statues of Washington and Jefferson, that should be the state's decision. Secondly, however, we do have history to teach. These men were awful people, but they did give us our country. We study them in textbooks. Can we study a more nuanced view of them? Sure. Should their statues be destroyed? I don't think so. If Jefferson was the father of Hemings' children, as many historians have argued is the case, and which Monticello has seemingly confirmed, then we should allow the entire story to be told. I can agree with that. How should it be told? The Smithsonian and Monticello have both given exhibitions on the relationship between Jefferson-Hemings. I think the conversation about Jefferson should be widened, but I don't think the statues should be taken down by the people.

Jefferson is still a massive part of our legacy as a nation, some for the better and some for the worse. Educators and historians should be allowed to weigh-in on these important decisions, as should the descendants of Washington and Jefferson, if any are still alive. This should not be a bunch of chaotic, incendiary decisions by people running all over social media, but by people who understand the weight of history and of the deposit of such that we give to our children in textbooks, buildings, and monuments.

[Salus Maior]

I've never heard of him being a child rapist, unironically.

He was indeed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Hemings

15-16 isn't a child, technically. Not that it makes it much better.

I guess Jefferson had plenty in common with our current batch of politicians.

[Kasa Tkoth Sphere]

This might be a bold claim, but it's a tragedy whenever art is permanently destroyed — even if it's art of awful people or awful things happening — or when it's censored by those interested in ensuring only their politics comes through.

A modest proposal: put the smashing on hold for a bit, digitize whatever statues are deemed "really unpopular", release the models to the public with no restrictions or caveats, and then let people smash the real ones if they really want to.

[Luminesa]

He was indeed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Hemings

15-16 isn't a child, technically. Not that it makes it much better.

I guess Jefferson had plenty in common with our current batch of politicians.

Technically it is (while not in official definitions, I consider 15-16 a child).

[Diarcesia]

Removing statues of Washington & Jefferson is unbased and bluepilled.

[Luminesa]

Sigh. When you glorify someone (as statues almost inherently do), by necessity, you minimize their flaws. If you don’t hide them completely, you diminish their importance.
This is an inherent part of…well, art itself.

I'd say their positives were foundational to this country, so glorifying them as the founders of this country is valid.

I say that as someone who doesn't like Jefferson, although I am a fan of Washington.

Shoot, I don't even like Alexander Hamilton the man (albeit the play has some baller music), but I still think he is influential to the founding of our country, and should be treated as such.

[Northern Davincia]

To dishonor the Founders is a foolish endeavor and I have little tolerance for it.

[Cetacea]

The Russians and Korea existed independently of their communist leaders, and had a long history of nationhood before them.

That doesn't exactly apply to the US. The Founding Fathers are more comparable to King Arthur or Moses than they are to Stalin and Kim il-Sung.

Which is part of the problem since Arthur was a fictional character created as a medieval fantasy story (possibly based on an historic footnote) and Moses was a religious legend bringing the law of God to the downtrodden masses.

I do hope you’re not defending the Founding Fathers as being comparable to prophets of God incarnate

[Neutraligon]

I wish I had my own private military so I could have troops set up as guards at as many of the historical sites as possible.

If the Police would'nt do anything about these wretched dogs, then me and the boys would be the ones to beat these dregs senseless if they tried to lay a harmful hand on any statue, building, monument, etc.

Recently a group wanted to take down a statue of Ulysses S. Grant, what the ever living frick!?! Confederate slave holders sure, but the guy that helped take down the Confederacy? That beat Lee and ended the war? The guy that had just as much a role in freeing the slaves as Lincoln? They want to take him down? Yeah no!

*** 1 day ban for advocating violence ***

[New haven america]

The Russians and Korea existed independently of their communist leaders, and had a long history of nationhood before them.

That doesn't exactly apply to the US. The Founding Fathers are more comparable to King Arthur or Moses than they are to Stalin and Kim il-Sung.

Which is part of the problem since Arthur was a fictional character created as a medieval fantasy story (possibly based on an historic footnote) and Moses was a religious legend bringing the law of God to the downtrodden masses.

I do hope you’re not defending the Founding Fathers as being comparable to prophets of God incarnate

Well of course we should, in the word of the Prophet and Shepard Zachary Comstock only by believing in the Founders light can we be brought to salvation.

[Proctopeo]

The Russians and Korea existed independently of their communist leaders, and had a long history of nationhood before them.

That doesn't exactly apply to the US. The Founding Fathers are more comparable to King Arthur or Moses than they are to Stalin and Kim il-Sung.

Which is part of the problem since Arthur was a fictional character created as a medieval fantasy story (possibly based on an historic footnote) and Moses was a religious legend bringing the law of God to the downtrodden masses.

I do hope you’re not defending the Founding Fathers as being comparable to prophets of God incarnate

They're closer to Harald Bluetooth or Charlemagne than King Arthur or Moses.

[Xmara]

He was indeed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Hemings

Ahhh. I knew about Sally Hemings, I didn't know she was only 14 when she was...coerced into relations.

I mean, I look at it this way. We do keep a lot of artifacts, at the very least, to remind us of our history. We have models of the atomic bomb. We have battleships, guns, and other weapons preserved. We have footage of the scene at Auschwitz when the camp was liberated in 1945, the piles and piles of dying and dead bodies in the camp. We have a lot of ugly history preserved, whether to remind us of what has happened or to remind us of what we are capable of doing. It's a hard balance to make, to explain what should be preserved and what should not be. While the statues themselves are not always historical, in many cases they are, and they should not be knocked-down by the common people. This incites people to unlawful behavior, and allows them to make the decisions which the state should make. If destruction of property is not punished, then it is allowed in all cases, and chaos reigns.

The state needs to take control of these situations. This is the only way we will have peace. If they want to take down statues of Washington and Jefferson, that should be the state's decision. Secondly, however, we do have history to teach. These men were awful people, but they did give us our country. We study them in textbooks. Can we study a more nuanced view of them? Sure. Should their statues be destroyed? I don't think so. If Jefferson was the father of Hemings' children, as many historians have argued is the case, and which Monticello has seemingly confirmed, then we should allow the entire story to be told. I can agree with that. How should it be told? The Smithsonian and Monticello have both given exhibitions on the relationship between Jefferson-Hemings. I think the conversation about Jefferson should be widened, but I don't think the statues should be taken down by the people.

Jefferson is still a massive part of our legacy as a nation, some for the better and some for the worse. Educators and historians should be allowed to weigh-in on these important decisions, as should the descendants of Washington and Jefferson, if any are still alive. This should not be a bunch of chaotic, incendiary decisions by people running all over social media, but by people who understand the weight of history and of the deposit of such that we give to our children in textbooks, buildings, and monuments.

This. This so much.

[New haven america]

I see people overreacting to this, but this is Portland and Seattle we're talking about.

They're not indicative to the behavior of the rest of the nation.

[Mandicoria]

based

[The Grims]

I've never heard of him being a child rapist, unironically.

Well, I encourage you to do some research, then.

It is.. shocking... how much we are not taught about the people we put on pedestals. I admit I did not know Gandhi was a racist arguing for white supremacy who often slept with teens before all this.

Which ofc is exactly the point protesters are making. Their stories are not told and therefore their suffering is invisible.

[Northern Davincia]

based

Submitting to modernist morality is the opposite of based. It is proof of one having no convictions at all.

[Luminesa]

Well, I encourage you to do some research, then.

It is.. shocking... how much we are not taught about the people we put on pedestals. I admit I did not know Gandhi was a racist arguing for white supremacy who often slept with teens before all this.

Which ofc is exactly the point protesters are making. Their stories are not told and therefore their suffering is invisible.

In my own defense, I didn't learn about Sally Hemings until college. I knew about her then, but never her age.

[Luminesa]

I see people overreacting to this, but this is Portland and Seattle we're talking about.

They're not indicative to the behavior of the rest of the nation.

This is generally true, but social media has been spreading these sentiments around like wildfire, so what should be isolated to Seattle, Portland, and the like could potentially pop-up elsewhere. That's why talking about it is worthwhile, even if it is difficult.