Washington & Jefferson Statue Get Pulled Down

[Heloin]

- Beginning our sordid history of invading everything (Haiti, Dominican Republic, Mexico)

- Reversing racial integration

- Promoting 'Lost Cause'

etc. etc.

What are your thoughts on the Haitian genocide?

The United States didn't intervene in the Parsley massacre and had left the Dominican Republic 13 years prior and Haiti 3 years prior. That's not even vaguely related to Wilson and the only possible connection to what's being said without being little more then pointless whataboutism. The United States didn't intervene in anything related to any genocides or massacres in Hispaniola at any point so one questions why you brought the topic up in the first place.

[Cisairse]

- Beginning our sordid history of interventionism (Haiti, Dominican Republic, Mexico)

- Reversing racial integration

- Promoting 'Lost Cause'

etc. etc.

Oh, I’m sorry, I don’t know as much about him as the others. I put him there because of his support of the UN, the fact that he appointed the first Jewish Supreme Court, and his support of Jewish rights and his dislike of anti-semitism (compared to others in his time), and his leadership in WW1. Now that I know better, I’d probably put him in the middle tier.

Wilson didn't support the UN (that was Truman), he was the architect of the LAN, which was a complete failure. His leadership in WW1 was questionable at best; it's not like he did anything exceptional that you wouldn't expect any well-staffed administration to do as well.

[Heloin]

It was a genocide, which makes it terrible.

So was ultimate intervention in Haiti wrong?

Yes because it wasn't about genocide. The US occupation of Haiti in 1915 was about German-Haitian relations and American business interests in the region.

[Cetacea]

Well at least with all these statues being pulled down people are starting to

1 learn a bit of history
2 take a critical look at how historic figures are memorialiszed in the present

The whole process of the 2020 Police Riots, global response and subsequent pull down/ monuments debate is creating some fascinating history for some future Liberal Arts major to analyse

[Heloin]

Well at least with all these statues being pulled down people are starting to

1 learn a bit of history
2 take a critical look at how historic figures are memorialiszed in the present

The whole process of the 2020 Police Riots is creating some fascinating history for some future Liberal Arts major to analyse

Who'd of thought that a global pandemic would be so awful that statues would start dropping dead.

[Atheris]

I think it depends on a few factors:
- Did they support slavery?
- Were they confederate?
- Were they crucial to the country?
- Did they own slaves?
- Was slavery common in their time?
- Was racism common in their time?

Based off of these, here are the figures whom I say it’s okay to remove statues of and rename institutions named after them:
- Robert E. Lee (by far)
- Jefferson Davis (by far)
- Braxton Bragg (by far)
- Andrew Jackson
- James Monroe (I guess, though I know less about him than the others)
- That guy whose statue in Bristol was toppled (he was a slave-trader, which is even worse than slave-owner)

Ones that were bad people, but who we should try if possible to avoid getting rid of things:
- Thomas Jefferson
- James Madison
- Ulysses S. Grant (he owned only a single slave, and released him in 1859. He was against slavery from then on)

Ones who were slave-owners and/or racist, but who ultimately helped the world to much to be disrespected in such ways:
- George Washington
- Winston Churchill
- Woodrow Wilson
- FDR

Woodrow Wilson was a neo-confederate, the founder of modern American interventionism, and almost lost Europe WW1.

He did not help the world. He deserves to be disrespected. He is the worst American president.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Ngl thats pretty fucking stupid. If you destroy everything that has bad history behind it, you're just gonna get rid of most of history.

There are too many threads in which I click, see a good take from Rojava that says exactly what I was going to say, and just ^this.

[Greed and Death]

I think it depends on a few factors:
- Did they support slavery?
- Were they confederate?
- Were they crucial to the country?
- Did they own slaves?
- Was slavery common in their time?
- Was racism common in their time?

Based off of these, here are the figures whom I say it’s okay to remove statues of and rename institutions named after them:
- Robert E. Lee (by far)
- Jefferson Davis (by far)
- Braxton Bragg (by far)
- Andrew Jackson
- James Monroe (I guess, though I know less about him than the others)
- That guy whose statue in Bristol was toppled (he was a slave-trader, which is even worse than slave-owner)

Ones that were bad people, but who we should try if possible to avoid getting rid of things:
- Thomas Jefferson
- James Madison
- Ulysses S. Grant (he owned only a single slave, and released him in 1859. He was against slavery from then on)

Ones who were slave-owners and/or racist, but who ultimately helped the world to much to be disrespected in such ways:
- George Washington
- Winston Churchill
- Woodrow Wilson
- FDR

I would put Wilson with Jackson.

I would put Columbus in the ultimately helped the world group.

[King of the Incels]

This is how you lose support for protesting. Which is gonna bite yall in the arse sooooo hard.

[Alt-Right Death Squads]

I feel like schools should teach about the good and the bad deeds the founding fathers did, so kids can judge for themselves rather they like or dislike the founding fathers.

Certainly. But we all know that will never happen so long as this cult of personality around the Founding Fathers remains prevalent in the United States.

As it should

[Luziyca]

He was the worst of the three, ruled like a dictator.

I'm not sure you can unironically say that there is a cult of personality when the bad things they did are as discussed as the good things (at least, that was my experience).

People take the stuff about the Founders personally because they represent "America", so attacks on them are viewed as attacks on Americans.

Pretty much. Americans complain all the time about how the Soviets made a cult of personality around Lenin and Stalin, or how the northern provinces of Korea made a cult of personality around Kim il-Sung, without realizing that the Americans have done the exact same damn thing to their founding fathers.

[Luminesa]

Related tangently, but they also pulled-down a statue of St. Junipero Serra. Some idiots on Twitter suggested throwing his BONES in the Pacific Ocean.

This is going insane. This has nothing to do with George Floyd anymore. This is madness, and this particular instance is blasphemy. They wanna flipping storm a monastery and THROW A SAINT'S BONES INTO THE OCEAN.

George Washington and Thomas Jefferson's statues being torn down is also stupid. They founded our country. They can't change who founded our country. It's ridiculous, and it's going to draw support away from the people who genuinely want police reform and an end to racism. It's utter madness.

[Cisairse]

Related tangently, but they also pulled-down a statue of St. Junipero Serra. Some idiots on Twitter suggested throwing his BONES in the Pacific Ocean.

This is going insane. This has nothing to do with George Floyd anymore. This is madness, and this particular instance is blasphemy. They wanna flipping storm a monastery and THROW A SAINT'S BONES INTO THE OCEAN.

George Washington and Thomas Jefferson's statues being torn down is also stupid. They founded our country. They can't change who founded our country. It's ridiculous, and it's going to draw support away from the people who genuinely want police reform and an end to racism. It's utter madness.

Nobody is trying to "change who founded our country," where on earth did you get that idea

[Luminesa]

Related tangently, but they also pulled-down a statue of St. Junipero Serra. Some idiots on Twitter suggested throwing his BONES in the Pacific Ocean.

This is going insane. This has nothing to do with George Floyd anymore. This is madness, and this particular instance is blasphemy. They wanna flipping storm a monastery and THROW A SAINT'S BONES INTO THE OCEAN.

George Washington and Thomas Jefferson's statues being torn down is also stupid. They founded our country. They can't change who founded our country. It's ridiculous, and it's going to draw support away from the people who genuinely want police reform and an end to racism. It's utter madness.

Nobody is trying to "change who founded our country," where on earth did you get that idea

I mean, I guess that's an overreaching, but I don't know what goal they see in taking down these particular statues. No, neither man was particularly saintly in certain matters, but they still are our Founding Fathers.

[Cisairse]

Nobody is trying to "change who founded our country," where on earth did you get that idea

I mean, I guess that's an overreaching, but I don't know what goal they see in taking down these particular statues. No, neither man was particularly saintly in certain matters, but they still are our Founding Fathers.

The goal is to stop glorifying racists, child rapists, and slaveowners.

[Cetacea]

I would put Wilson with Jackson.

I would put Columbus in the ultimately helped the world group.

how did Columbus help the world? He may have helped spain but afterwards he didnt do much that was beneficial. Columbus was also lost and kept insisting that what he had stumbled on as Asia.
Mytholising him as a symbol of discovery and colonialism is part of the reason that Statues are best put in museums where they can be contextualised rather than out in public spaces as national monuments

[Nakena]

It's like a new iconoclasm that is keeps spreading and turning into a public frenzy and has long been detached from it's original cause.

[Luminesa]

I mean, I guess that's an overreaching, but I don't know what goal they see in taking down these particular statues. No, neither man was particularly saintly in certain matters, but they still are our Founding Fathers.

The goal is to stop glorifying racists, child rapists, and slaveowners.

I mean I can understand that, by all means, but this could turn into a slippery slope. Jefferson was a jerk toward slaves, but he also founded universities, libraries, and wrote the Declaration of Independence. Are they gonna destroy the University of Virginia since it was founded by him? It's like...I want to end racism. But I'm not sure if this is the way to do it. We need actual policy-changes, a wise state that cares for its citizens when it's not an election year.

[Rost Dreadnorramus]

I wish I had my own private military so I could have troops set up as guards at as many of the historical sites as possible.

If the Police would'nt do anything about these wretched dogs, then me and the boys would be the ones to beat these dregs senseless if they tried to lay a harmful hand on any statue, building, monument, etc.

Recently a group wanted to take down a statue of Ulysses S. Grant, what the ever living frick!?! Confederate slave holders sure, but the guy that helped take down the Confederacy? That beat Lee and ended the war? The guy that had just as much a role in freeing the slaves as Lincoln? They want to take him down? Yeah no!

[Kowani]

The goal is to stop glorifying racists, child rapists, and slaveowners.

I mean I can understand that, by all means, but this could turn into a slippery slope. Jefferson was a jerk toward slaves, but he also founded universities, libraries, and wrote the Declaration of Independence. Are they gonna destroy the University of Virginia since it was founded by him? It's like...I want to end racism. But I'm not sure if this is the way to do it. We need actual policy-changes, a wise state that cares for its citizens when it's not an election year.

Policy changes are important. But a cultural change-bringing down deified people, is of utmost importance, too. We have elevated the founding fathers to a level of perfection that is literally inhuman, having swept much of their flaws under the rug.
The University of Virginia, to my knowledge, doesn’t glorify anything (except maybe learning). A statue does.

[The Marlborough]

I wish I had my own private military so I could have troops set up as guards at as many of the historical sites as possible.

If the Police would'nt do anything about these wretched dogs, then me and the boys would be the ones to beat these dregs senseless if they tried to lay a harmful hand on any statue, building, monument, etc.

Recently a group wanted to take down a statue of Ulysses S. Grant, what the ever living frick!?! Confederate slave holders sure, but the guy that helped take down the Confederacy? That beat Lee and ended the war? The guy that had just as much a role in freeing the slaves as Lincoln? They want to take him down? Yeah no!

They didn't just want to take it down, they actually did take it down. We also have at least one person advocating digging up the bones of Junipero Serra and tossing them into the sea. It's pretty clear at this point that this crowd cannot be trusted to just stop at Confederate statues and monuments and so we cannot give them a single inch across the board.

[The Marlborough]

I mean I can understand that, by all means, but this could turn into a slippery slope. Jefferson was a jerk toward slaves, but he also founded universities, libraries, and wrote the Declaration of Independence. Are they gonna destroy the University of Virginia since it was founded by him? It's like...I want to end racism. But I'm not sure if this is the way to do it. We need actual policy-changes, a wise state that cares for its citizens when it's not an election year.

Policy changes are important. But a cultural change-bringing down deified people, is of utmost importance, too. We have elevated the founding fathers to a level of perfection that is literally inhuman, having swept much of their flaws under the rug.
The University of Virginia, to my knowledge, doesn’t glorify anything (except maybe learning). A statue does.

Everyone is pretty aware that Jefferson owned slaves and tackled with that internally.

[Rost Dreadnorramus]

I wish I had my own private military so I could have troops set up as guards at as many of the historical sites as possible.

If the Police would'nt do anything about these wretched dogs, then me and the boys would be the ones to beat these dregs senseless if they tried to lay a harmful hand on any statue, building, monument, etc.

Recently a group wanted to take down a statue of Ulysses S. Grant, what the ever living frick!?! Confederate slave holders sure, but the guy that helped take down the Confederacy? That beat Lee and ended the war? The guy that had just as much a role in freeing the slaves as Lincoln? They want to take him down? Yeah no!

They didn't just want to take it down, they actually did take it down. We also have at least one person advocating digging up the bones of Junipero Serra and tossing them into the sea. It's pretty clear at this point that this crowd cannot be trusted to just stop at Confederate statues and monuments and so we cannot give them a single inch across the board.

Keel haul um.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

The University of Virginia, to my knowledge, doesn’t glorify anything (except maybe learning). A statue does.

The statues of Jefferson, Washington, Grant, etc. don't actually glorify racism or slavery. Only dunces (or hooligans) obsessed with race politics think so.

[The Marlborough]

The University of Virginia, to my knowledge, doesn’t glorify anything (except maybe learning). A statue does.

The statues of Jefferson, Washington, Grant, etc. don't actually glorify racism or slavery. Only dunces (or hooligans) obsessed with race politics think so.

^This. The statues of Jefferson are there to commemorate his role in the American Revolution and as the drafter of the Declaration of Independence, not because he was a slave owner.