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Washington & Jefferson Statue Get Pulled Down

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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:00 pm

US-SSR wrote:
Vetalia wrote:
Who founded the country that is still the envy of the entire world.

Without the efforts of Washington and Jefferson to build the American republic and establish a constitution that makes personal freedom and rights of the citizens as paramount, the world would be a much darker place.


Washington, Jefferson and the rest of them didn't care a damn about rights of the citizens, they coopted the language of John Locke, Rousseau and others to create a system to maximize the interests of the capitalistic exploiters and enslavers they saw as the natural leaders of society. The basis of the prosperity and power of the USA throughout its history is taking land from natives and setting enslaved Africans to work on it. The "freedom" it fights for in foreign nations large and small is the freedom of its bankers and industrialists to continue to exploit the labor and resources of the rest of the world to enrich themselves.

As I say, about time their statues get pulled down.

Do you hear the people sing?
Singing the songs of angry men?
It is the music of the people
Who will not be slaves again!
When the beating of your heart
Echoes the beating of the drums
There is a life about to start
When tomorrow comes!


Sure, whatever, all those millions of people throughout our history immigrated to America because they were hoodwinked by the evil capitalists and not because of the prospect of freedom and economic opportunity which they in fact enjoyed and used to build the greatest, most prosperous and most powerful nation in human history...based upon a system built by Washington and Jefferson, and for which thousands of non-whites fought and died to preserve throughout this country's history.

Do you have any comparable alternatives?
Last edited by Vetalia on Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Proctopeo
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Postby Proctopeo » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:02 pm

US-SSR wrote:About time. Two more racist enslavers.

Who are your idols, communist? Your lies don't scare me.
Last edited by Proctopeo on Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cisairse
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Postby Cisairse » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:03 pm

John Adams always wins in the end.
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

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Aeritai
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Postby Aeritai » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:04 pm

US-SSR wrote:
Vetalia wrote:
Who founded the country that is still the envy of the entire world.

Without the efforts of Washington and Jefferson to build the American republic and establish a constitution that makes personal freedom and rights of the citizens as paramount, the world would be a much darker place.


Washington, Jefferson and the rest of them didn't care a damn about rights of the citizens, they coopted the language of John Locke, Rousseau and others to create a system to maximize the interests of the capitalistic exploiters and enslavers they saw as the natural leaders of society. The basis of the prosperity and power of the USA throughout its history is taking land from natives and setting enslaved Africans to work on it. The "freedom" it fights for in foreign nations large and small is the freedom of its bankers and industrialists to continue to exploit the labor and resources of the rest of the world to enrich themselves.

As I say, about time their statues get pulled down.

Do you hear the people sing?
Singing the songs of angry men?
It is the music of the people
Who will not be slaves again!
When the beating of your heart
Echoes the beating of the drums
There is a life about to start
When tomorrow comes!


Can you provide sources that claim Washington and Jefferson didn't care about the people please?
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Proctopeo
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Postby Proctopeo » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:05 pm

Aeritai wrote:
US-SSR wrote:
Washington, Jefferson and the rest of them didn't care a damn about rights of the citizens, they coopted the language of John Locke, Rousseau and others to create a system to maximize the interests of the capitalistic exploiters and enslavers they saw as the natural leaders of society. The basis of the prosperity and power of the USA throughout its history is taking land from natives and setting enslaved Africans to work on it. The "freedom" it fights for in foreign nations large and small is the freedom of its bankers and industrialists to continue to exploit the labor and resources of the rest of the world to enrich themselves.

As I say, about time their statues get pulled down.

Do you hear the people sing?
Singing the songs of angry men?
It is the music of the people
Who will not be slaves again!
When the beating of your heart
Echoes the beating of the drums
There is a life about to start
When tomorrow comes!


Can you provide sources that claim Washington and Jefferson didn't care about the people please?

He's talking out of his ass, let's just try and pay him no mind from now on.
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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:06 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
US-SSR wrote:About time. Two more racist enslavers.

Who are your idols, communist? Your lies don't scare me.


Communism was such a wonderful system it had to build walls to keep people in, and shoot them if they tried to escape. It's ok, though, since it wasn't "real" communism...amazingly, capitalism never has to make those same excuses but the commies always have to excuse away their blatant authoritarianism and economic failures.
Last edited by Vetalia on Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Middle Barael
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Postby Middle Barael » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:09 pm

I think it depends on a few factors:
- Did they support slavery?
- Were they confederate?
- Were they crucial to the country?
- Did they own slaves?
- Was slavery common in their time?
- Was racism common in their time?

Based off of these, here are the figures whom I say it’s okay to remove statues of and rename institutions named after them:
- Robert E. Lee (by far)
- Jefferson Davis (by far)
- Braxton Bragg (by far)
- Andrew Jackson
- James Monroe (I guess, though I know less about him than the others)
- That guy whose statue in Bristol was toppled (he was a slave-trader, which is even worse than slave-owner)

Ones that were racist and/or owned slaves, but who we should try if possible to avoid getting rid of things:
- Thomas Jefferson
- James Madison
- Ulysses S. Grant (he owned only a single slave, and released him in 1859. He was against slavery from then on)
-Woodrow Wilson

Ones who were slave-owners and/or racist, but who ultimately helped the world to much to be disrespected in such ways:
- George Washington
- Winston Churchill
- FDR
Last edited by Middle Barael on Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Proctopeo
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Postby Proctopeo » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:10 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Who are your idols, communist? Your lies don't scare me.


Communism was such a wonderful system it had to build walls to keep people in, and shoot them if they tried to escape. It's ok, though, since it wasn't "real" communism...amazingly, capitalism never has to make those same excuses but the commies always have to excuse away their blatant authoritarianism and economic failures.

Damn those capitalist pig dog oppressors and their... good standards of living, functional democracy, and readily-available amenities!
Also, while "that's not real capitalism" does occasionally crop up as an argument, I mostly see it directed at the term communists use to shift the blame onto capitalists for their failures: "state capitalism".
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Cisairse
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Postby Cisairse » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:12 pm

Middle Barael wrote:I think it depends on a few factors:
- Did they support slavery?
- Were they confederate?
- Were they crucial to the country?
- Did they own slaves?
- Was slavery common in their time?
- Was racism common in their time?

Based off of these, here are the figures whom I say it’s okay to remove statues of and rename institutions named after them:
- Robert E. Lee (by far)
- Jefferson Davis (by far)
- Braxton Bragg (by far)
- Andrew Jackson
- James Monroe (I guess, though I know less about him than the others)
- That guy whose statue in Bristol was toppled (he was a slave-trader, which is even worse than slave-owner)

Ones that were bad people, but who we should try if possible to avoid getting rid of things:
- Thomas Jefferson
- James Madison
- Ulysses S. Grant (he owned only a single slave, and released him in 1859. He was against slavery from then on)

Ones who were slave-owners and/or racist, but who ultimately helped the world to much to be disrespected in such ways:
- George Washington
- Winston Churchill
- Woodrow Wilson
- FDR

lol Woodrow Wilson didn't "help the world"

one of the worst presidents we've ever had
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

I officially endorse Fivey Fox for president of the United States.

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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:16 pm

Test - problem with my wifi connection.
Last edited by Vetalia on Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:21 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:20 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Vetalia wrote:
Communism was such a wonderful system it had to build walls to keep people in, and shoot them if they tried to escape. It's ok, though, since it wasn't "real" communism...amazingly, capitalism never has to make those same excuses but the commies always have to excuse away their blatant authoritarianism and economic failures.

Damn those capitalist pig dog oppressors and their... good standards of living, functional democracy, and readily-available amenities!
Also, while "that's not real capitalism" does occasionally crop up as an argument, I mostly see it directed at the term communists use to shift the blame onto capitalists for their failures: "state capitalism".



Don't worry, this time is different, we will achieve Communism, trust us!

What is funny is an American even in the depths of the Great Depression still had a standard of living higher than a Soviet citizen at any point in history in terms of nutrition. Hence why the "Workers' Paradise" had literally zero immigrants as the United States welcomed millions.
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Stellar Colonies
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:21 pm

Cisairse wrote:
Middle Barael wrote:I think it depends on a few factors:
- Did they support slavery?
- Were they confederate?
- Were they crucial to the country?
- Did they own slaves?
- Was slavery common in their time?
- Was racism common in their time?

Based off of these, here are the figures whom I say it’s okay to remove statues of and rename institutions named after them:
- Robert E. Lee (by far)
- Jefferson Davis (by far)
- Braxton Bragg (by far)
- Andrew Jackson
- James Monroe (I guess, though I know less about him than the others)
- That guy whose statue in Bristol was toppled (he was a slave-trader, which is even worse than slave-owner)

Ones that were bad people, but who we should try if possible to avoid getting rid of things:
- Thomas Jefferson
- James Madison
- Ulysses S. Grant (he owned only a single slave, and released him in 1859. He was against slavery from then on)

Ones who were slave-owners and/or racist, but who ultimately helped the world to much to be disrespected in such ways:
- George Washington
- Winston Churchill
- Woodrow Wilson
- FDR

lol Woodrow Wilson didn't "help the world"

one of the worst presidents we've ever had

- Beginning our sordid history of interventionism (Haiti, Dominican Republic, Mexico)

- Reversing racial integration

- Promoting 'Lost Cause'

etc. etc.
Last edited by Stellar Colonies on Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Confederacy & the WA.

Add 1200 years.

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Holy Roman Empires2
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Postby Holy Roman Empires2 » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:22 pm

Its disgusting
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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:23 pm

Stellar Colonies wrote:- Beginning our sordid history of invading everything (Haiti, Dominican Republic, Mexico)

- Reversing racial integration

- Promoting 'Lost Cause'

etc. etc.


What are your thoughts on the Haitian genocide?
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Stellar Colonies
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:26 pm

Vetalia wrote:
Stellar Colonies wrote:- Beginning our sordid history of invading everything (Haiti, Dominican Republic, Mexico)

- Reversing racial integration

- Promoting 'Lost Cause'

etc. etc.


What are your thoughts on the Haitian genocide?

It was a genocide, which makes it terrible.
Floofybit wrote:Your desired society should be one where you are submissive and controlled
Primitive Communism wrote:What bodily autonomy do men need?
Techocracy101010 wrote:If she goes on a rampage those saggy wonders are as deadly as nunchucks
Parmistan wrote:It's not ALWAYS acceptable when we do it, but it's MORE acceptable when we do it.
Theodorable wrote:Jihad will win.
Distruzio wrote:All marriage outside the Church is gay marriage.
Khardsland wrote:Terrorism in its original definition is a good thing.
I try to be objective, but I do have some biases.

North Californian.
Stellar Colonies is a loose galactic confederacy.

The Confederacy & the WA.

Add 1200 years.

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Cisairse
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Postby Cisairse » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:27 pm

Vetalia wrote:What is funny is an American even in the depths of the Great Depression still had a standard of living higher than a Soviet citizen at any point in history in terms of nutrition. Hence why the "Workers' Paradise" had literally zero immigrants as the United States welcomed millions.


What you said is completely false and also has nothing to do with this thread.
The details of the above post are subject to leftist infighting.

I officially endorse Fivey Fox for president of the United States.

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Libertas Omnium Maximus
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Postby Libertas Omnium Maximus » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:30 pm

Middle Barael wrote:I think it depends on a few factors:
- Did they support slavery?
- Were they confederate?
- Were they crucial to the country?
- Did they own slaves?
- Was slavery common in their time?
- Was racism common in their time?

Based off of these, here are the figures whom I say it’s okay to remove statues of and rename institutions named after them:
- Robert E. Lee (by far)
- Jefferson Davis (by far)
- Braxton Bragg (by far)
- Andrew Jackson
- James Monroe (I guess, though I know less about him than the others)
- That guy whose statue in Bristol was toppled (he was a slave-trader, which is even worse than slave-owner)

Ones that were bad people, but who we should try if possible to avoid getting rid of things:
- Thomas Jefferson
- James Madison
- Ulysses S. Grant (he owned only a single slave, and released him in 1859. He was against slavery from then on)

Ones who were slave-owners and/or racist, but who ultimately helped the world to much to be disrespected in such ways:
- George Washington
- Winston Churchill
- Woodrow Wilson
- FDR


I still love that you put down both James Madison and Thomas Jefferson as "bad people". They are quite literally two of the most important and influential Americans to ever live. They both owned slaves but so did pretty much every other wealthy southerner at the time. They were men of their time, that is certain, but they were far from "bad people". I'd be willing to say that they were two of the best individuals to ever live in America, as a matter of fact. The same thing goes for Monroe, actually.

Regarding H.U.G. (Grant), at least do a Wikipedia search of his name before mentioning him. He was very far from a racist and was a brilliant tactician.
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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:31 pm

The Lone Alliance wrote:
Vetalia wrote:I wonder if "Amazing Grace" will be banned next. After all, the author committed the unforgivable sin of being a slave trader in his past.

Right wingers have already convinced a slew of twitter nimrods to cancel Yale and Harvard so I'm sure it's on the chopping block too.


They deserve it.
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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:32 pm

Cisairse wrote:What you said is completely false and also has nothing to do with this thread.


Really, prove it! There's a reason nobody in their right mind ever immigrated to the USSR or any of the other Warsaw Pact countries.

And it was quite appropriate in the context that I posted it.
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Vetalia
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Postby Vetalia » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:32 pm

Stellar Colonies wrote:
Vetalia wrote:
What are your thoughts on the Haitian genocide?

It was a genocide, which makes it terrible.


So was ultimate intervention in Haiti wrong?
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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:33 pm

Bienenhalde wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:Did people actually believe this shit would end with Confederates?


Well Confederate statues are different because the Confederates are best known for fighting in a war to preserve slavery. But it is still sad that there are so many people on both sides of the issue who can't seem to understand what should be a fairly simple distinction.


These people see no distinction.
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Auze
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Postby Auze » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:34 pm

Cisairse wrote:John Adams always wins in the end.

He was the worst of the three, ruled like a dictator.
Luziyca wrote:
Aeritai wrote:I feel like schools should teach about the good and the bad deeds the founding fathers did, so kids can judge for themselves rather they like or dislike the founding fathers.

Certainly. But we all know that will never happen so long as this cult of personality around the Founding Fathers remains prevalent in the United States.

I'm not sure you can unironically say that there is a cult of personality when the bad things they did are as discussed as the good things (at least, that was my experience).
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Cyng
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Postby Cyng » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:34 pm

It was never about racism, they just hate all white people.

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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:35 pm

Auze wrote:
Cisairse wrote:John Adams always wins in the end.

He was the worst of the three, ruled like a dictator.
Luziyca wrote:Certainly. But we all know that will never happen so long as this cult of personality around the Founding Fathers remains prevalent in the United States.

I'm not sure you can unironically say that there is a cult of personality when the bad things they did are as discussed as the good things (at least, that was my experience).


People take the stuff about the Founders personally because they represent "America", so attacks on them are viewed as attacks on Americans.
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Middle Barael
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Postby Middle Barael » Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:36 pm

Stellar Colonies wrote:
Cisairse wrote:lol Woodrow Wilson didn't "help the world"

one of the worst presidents we've ever had

- Beginning our sordid history of interventionism (Haiti, Dominican Republic, Mexico)

- Reversing racial integration

- Promoting 'Lost Cause'

etc. etc.

Oh, I’m sorry, I don’t know as much about him as the others. I put him there because of his support of the UN, the fact that he appointed the first Jewish Supreme Court, and his support of Jewish rights and his dislike of anti-semitism (compared to others in his time), and his leadership in WW1. Now that I know better, I’d probably put him in the middle tier.
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