Are Afrikaners African?

[Exxosia]

Anyone who belongs to a second or further generation born in Africa, would be African.

Immigrant = Non-African
Their child = Naturalized Non-African
Their Grandchildren and beyond = African

[Aureumterra]

Michael Norman Manley was a white guy, so Jamaica had him. Guess I was wrong about Zambia though.

Here you elect a black guy president and all of the sudden everyone is talking about terrorism and shit.

Edit, major edit.

The Manley's were mixed <snip>

<Sigh>

It's almost as if I didn't specifically outline that 'Jamaica has also never had a prime minister who wouldn't have been subject to racial segregation laws in the pre-civil rights movement American South, though a couple of the early PMs probably wouldn't have been asked to give up their seat and move to the back of the bus. Bustamante and the Manleys were all mixed-race. Even Edward Seaga was of mixed Lebanese, Afro-Jamaican, Scottish, and Indian descent rather than 'white'; whatever the latter term means in mixed-race societies'.

I'm usually fairly careful about accuracy in my posts, you know; that and I've worked in Jamaica.

Is there any country you haven't lived in?

<Sigh>

It's almost as if I didn't specifically outline that 'Jamaica has also never had a prime minister who wouldn't have been subject to racial segregation laws in the pre-civil rights movement American South, though a couple of the early PMs probably wouldn't have been asked to give up their seat and move to the back of the bus. Bustamante and the Manleys were all mixed-race. Even Edward Seaga was of mixed Lebanese, Afro-Jamaican, Scottish, and Indian descent rather than 'white'; whatever the latter term means in mixed-race societies'.

I'm usually fairly careful about accuracy in my posts, you know; that and I've worked in Jamaica.

Ancient egyptian curses from the pyramids, voodoo from Jamaica, haggis from Scotland. You are a scary man

Icelandic Hakarl?

[Slavakino]

Yes and no. Technically speaking they were the first to settle in South Africa. Supposedly before the Zulu's even touched the land, so yes the Boers/Afrikaners are African although genetically european

[Kubra]

One little quip Hannah Arendt had on the Afrikaners was that they'd "gone native".
Not really the most savoury way of putting it, but it's true the British during the Boer wars thought of them as not exactly European.

Wouldn't have mattered if they were or not. The British thought they were superior to everybody which is why they treated the Irish like shit for so long.

The irish had the misfortune of being catholic. You know how that goes.

One little quip Hannah Arendt had on the Afrikaners was that they'd "gone native".
Not really the most savoury way of putting it, but it's true the British during the Boer wars thought of them as not exactly European.

Oh well, the Brits also think of everyone else as "not exactly true something", and proceed to stiffen their lips at the mere thought of folks who can't appreciate a good fog and lukewarm ale.
That's part of that weird British charm.

the trick is that british perception tended to affect treatment. They couldn't be particularly harsh on the Americans in 1812, quite a bit harsher on the irish and on an occasion the spanish, and against the boers and zulu's weeeeeeelll you know how it goes.

[Aumeltopia]

Yes.

The more interesting question is: what about when an Afrikaner moves to the United States? Are they African-American? I'd say no: being African-American is a cultural identity and an Afrikaner-American would be considered white, not African-American.

But even more interestingly: are Americans of (recent) Bantu ancestry African-American but not Americans of Afrikaner ancestry?

[SangMar]

Yes. If Black people and non-whites can be considered Northern European, why can’t Afrikaners and White people generally be considered African?

In fact, as stated - many of the Afrikaners were in what would become South Africa before the Nguni? were. (It was one ethnic group in particular, it might be the Sotho instead, I’m not sure? - they were scattered during the Mfecane - caused by Shaka - a Zulu king.

I have no objections to them being African, much like how I have no objections to the concept of a Black-British person.

[SangMar]

Yes.

The more interesting question is: what about when an Afrikaner moves to the United States? Are they African-American? I'd say no: being African-American is a cultural identity and an Afrikaner-American would be considered white, not African-American.

But even more interestingly: are Americans of (recent) Bantu ancestry African-American but not Americans of Afrikaner ancestry?

No. Arguably, speaking semantically, I’d say African-Americans are only those descended from slaves. After all, the term “African-American” is only there (I think) because of how many African-Americans do not know which part of Africa they’re from. Specifically.

A Bantu person would just be South African-American or perhaps, just Black-American.

Personally though - if I’m honest, it also shows how stupid the label “African-American” is. If you’re born and raised in Africa, you’re African. Period.

You should be able to claim whatever scholarships or whatever based upon being African-American regardless of skin tone. If people don’t like it, change the criteria to Black-American or something.

[Cetacea]

Yes. If Black people and non-whites can be considered Northern European, why can’t Afrikaners and White people generally be considered African?

In fact, as stated - many of the Afrikaners were in what would become South Africa before the Nguni? were. (It was one ethnic group in particular, it might be the Sotho instead, I’m not sure? - they were scattered during the Mfecane - caused by Shaka - a Zulu king.

I have no objections to them being African, much like how I have no objections to the concept of a Black-British person.

Being Black British doesnt mean the same thing as African British - is African British evedn a thing? he few I know refer to themselves being British Ghanaians or British Kenyans. Then you have Jamaican British (are they African or American?)

etc etc

[SangMar]

Yes. If Black people and non-whites can be considered Northern European, why can’t Afrikaners and White people generally be considered African?

In fact, as stated - many of the Afrikaners were in what would become South Africa before the Nguni? were. (It was one ethnic group in particular, it might be the Sotho instead, I’m not sure? - they were scattered during the Mfecane - caused by Shaka - a Zulu king.

I have no objections to them being African, much like how I have no objections to the concept of a Black-British person.

Being Black British doesnt mean the same thing as African British - is African British evedn a thing? he few I know refer to themselves being British Ghanaians or British Kenyans. Then you have Jamaican British (are they African or American?)

etc etc

African British? No. There’s no unified African culture in Britain. But what I meant was, if Afrikaners - a white group, can be thought of as African, Black people who live in Britain - a traditionally white country, can be thought of as British.

[The Blaatschapen]

Being Black British doesnt mean the same thing as African British - is African British evedn a thing? he few I know refer to themselves being British Ghanaians or British Kenyans. Then you have Jamaican British (are they African or American?)

etc etc

African British? No. There’s no unified African culture in Britain. But what I meant was, if Afrikaners - a white group, can be thought of as African, Black people who live in Britain - a traditionally white country, can be thought of as British.

They are, it's why they are eligible to compete for Team GB

[Rojava Free State]

Not necessarily. A good chunk of South Africa was uninhabited when the Dutch first showed up, and the Dutch were the first people into those areas. So who's really native?

Uninhabited. Right, yeah let's take the word of the invaders for that shall we?

Evidence isn't racist or Eurocentric. If there weren't people there, there weren't people there.

[Anatoliyanskiy]

Uh oh. What has begun.

[Rojava Free State]

Michael Norman Manley was a white guy, so Jamaica had him. Guess I was wrong about Zambia though.

Here you elect a black guy president and all of the sudden everyone is talking about terrorism and shit.

Edit, major edit.

The Manley's were mixed <snip>

<Sigh>

It's almost as if I didn't specifically outline that 'Jamaica has also never had a prime minister who wouldn't have been subject to racial segregation laws in the pre-civil rights movement American South, though a couple of the early PMs probably wouldn't have been asked to give up their seat and move to the back of the bus. Bustamante and the Manleys were all mixed-race. Even Edward Seaga was of mixed Lebanese, Afro-Jamaican, Scottish, and Indian descent rather than 'white'; whatever the latter term means in mixed-race societies'.

I'm usually fairly careful about accuracy in my posts, you know; that and I've worked in Jamaica.

My point is Manley and Seaga looked like white men, and were more similar in appearance to them than they were in appearance to your average black Jamaican, but that wasn't some hangup in Jamaica. People were enthusiastic for Manley and turned up in droves to see him. Race in general is a construct anyhow, so all I'm even basing this on is the appearence of the two prime ministers in comparison to their countrymen.

[Nouveau Yathrib]

Uninhabited. Right, yeah let's take the word of the invaders for that shall we?

Evidence isn't racist or Eurocentric. If there weren't people there, there weren't people there.

But there were people there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Cap ... f_the_Cape

At the time of first European settlement in the Cape, the southwest of Africa was inhabited by San people and Khoikhoi who were pastoral people with a population estimated between 13,000 and 15,000.[4] The Khoisan nomadic people were disgruntled by the disruption of their seasonal visit to the area for which purpose they grazed their cattle at the foot of Table Mountain only to find European settlers occupying and farming the land, leading to the 1st Khoi-Dutch War as part of a series of Khoikhoi-Dutch Wars. After the war, the natives ceded the land to the settlers in 1660.

[Rojava Free State]

Evidence isn't racist or Eurocentric. If there weren't people there, there weren't people there.

But there were people there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Cap ... f_the_Cape

At the time of first European settlement in the Cape, the southwest of Africa was inhabited by San people and Khoikhoi who were pastoral people with a population estimated between 13,000 and 15,000.[4] The Khoisan nomadic people were disgruntled by the disruption of their seasonal visit to the area for which purpose they grazed their cattle at the foot of Table Mountain only to find European settlers occupying and farming the land, leading to the 1st Khoi-Dutch War as part of a series of Khoikhoi-Dutch Wars. After the war, the natives ceded the land to the settlers in 1660.

There were some people in certain areas. And there were other parts of South Africa that were uninhabited.

[Aureumterra]

Evidence isn't racist or Eurocentric. If there weren't people there, there weren't people there.

But there were people there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Cap ... f_the_Cape

At the time of first European settlement in the Cape, the southwest of Africa was inhabited by San people and Khoikhoi who were pastoral people with a population estimated between 13,000 and 15,000.[4] The Khoisan nomadic people were disgruntled by the disruption of their seasonal visit to the area for which purpose they grazed their cattle at the foot of Table Mountain only to find European settlers occupying and farming the land, leading to the 1st Khoi-Dutch War as part of a series of Khoikhoi-Dutch Wars. After the war, the natives ceded the land to the settlers in 1660.

I don’t see how there being people there makes modern day Afrikaners not African though

[Deacarsia]

Yea, Afrikaners are African.

[Nouveau Yathrib]

But there were people there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Cap ... f_the_Cape

I don’t see how there being people there makes modern day Afrikaners not African though

Neither do I. Their culture developed in Africa and evolved separately from that of their homeland. But if you want to use the criterion of having "indigenous" ancestry to call yourself native, most Afrikaaners have non-European ancestry, and some of that ancestry can be traced back to the original inhabitants of the region.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaner ... n_ancestry

According to a genetic study in February 2019, almost all Afrikaners have admixture from non-Europeans. The total amount of non-European ancestry is 4.8%, of which 2.1% are of African ancestry and 2.7% Asian/Native American ancestry. Among the 77 Afrikaners investigated, 6.5% had more than 10% non-European admixture, 27.3% had between 5 and 10%, 59.7% had between 1 and 5%, and 6.5% below 1%. It appears that some 3.4% of the non-European admixture can be traced to enslaved peoples who were brought to the Cape from other regions during colonial times. Only 1.38% of the admixture is attributed to the local Khoe-San people.[90]

[Rojava Free State]

I don’t see how there being people there makes modern day Afrikaners not African though

Neither do I. Their culture developed in Africa and evolved separately from that of their homeland. But if you want to use the criterion of having "indigenous" ancestry to call yourself native, most Afrikaaners have non-European ancestry, and some of that ancestry can be traced back to the original inhabitants of the region.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afrikaner ... n_ancestry

According to a genetic study in February 2019, almost all Afrikaners have admixture from non-Europeans. The total amount of non-European ancestry is 4.8%, of which 2.1% are of African ancestry and 2.7% Asian/Native American ancestry. Among the 77 Afrikaners investigated, 6.5% had more than 10% non-European admixture, 27.3% had between 5 and 10%, 59.7% had between 1 and 5%, and 6.5% below 1%. It appears that some 3.4% of the non-European admixture can be traced to enslaved peoples who were brought to the Cape from other regions during colonial times. Only 1.38% of the admixture is attributed to the local Khoe-San people.[90]

So they're mixed like how Latin American people are? Interesting.

What was the point of Apartheid? They already weren't purely white.

[Monsone]

What was the point of Apartheid? They already weren't purely white.

In retorspect it seem idiotic, but the answer is simple. Power. A free ballot box with the ability for all South Aricans to vote freely would have doomed white rule, so the simple answer was to not allow people of color to have toe same rights in a horridly convoluted and messed up system that makes no sense to this day.

Plus Apartheid was based less on ancestry and more so on how an individual looked. If they looked suffuciently white, they where white, and so on. Quite litteraly there where times were people where physicially examined and they could have their racial status changed by having light enough skin, straignt and nut curly hair, etc.

Again, the point of Apartheid had always been power and no necessarily racial separation. The latter was just an adition made by deeply racist politicians to shore up...their power.

[Rojava Free State]

What was the point of Apartheid? They already weren't purely white.

In retorspect it seem idiotic, but the answer is simple. Power. A free ballot box with the ability for all South Aricans to vote freely would have doomed white rule, so the simple answer was to not allow people of color to have toe same rights in a horridly convoluted and messed up system that makes no sense to this day.

Plus Apartheid was based less on ancestry and more so on how an individual looked. If they looked suffuciently white, they where white, and so on. Quite litteraly there where times were people where physicially examined and they could have their racial status changed by having light enough skin, straignt and nut curly hair, etc.

Again, the point of Apartheid had always been power and no necessarily racial separation. The latter was just an adition made by deeply racist politicians to shore up...their power.

Apartheid was pretty dumb.

[New Bremerton]

What was the point of Apartheid? They already weren't purely white.

In retorspect it seem idiotic, but the answer is simple. Power. A free ballot box with the ability for all South Aricans to vote freely would have doomed white rule, so the simple answer was to not allow people of color to have toe same rights in a horridly convoluted and messed up system that makes no sense to this day.

Plus Apartheid was based less on ancestry and more so on how an individual looked. If they looked suffuciently white, they where white, and so on. Quite litteraly there where times were people where physicially examined and they could have their racial status changed by having light enough skin, straignt and nut curly hair, etc.

Again, the point of Apartheid had always been power and no necessarily racial separation. The latter was just an adition made by deeply racist politicians to shore up...their power.

The Afrikaners could have carved out their own, white-majority state separate from those of their black neighbors and it would've been fine as long as they treated everyone equally. It's too late for that now. Their only choice is either to flee to the Netherlands or stay put and fight for their rights and dignity in a black-majority, black-ruled state. Either way, they have every right to be there and call themselves South Africans. South Africa is not a black nation or a white nation, but a multiracial nation, no matter how much the bloodthirsty, genocidal black supremacists in the ANC and EFF like to pretend otherwise.

[Risottia]

,,, Are they African-American?

Well that depends.
What if a black-skinned Congolese moved to America and became an American citizen? Would he be considered an African-American?
What if a Moroccan moved to America and became an American citizen?

If the answer is yes, then the same would apply to Afrikaaners. If the answer is "no", then we could just drop the "African-American" charade and just use "black-skinned American since at least X generations".

[Risottia]

Their only choice is either to flee to the Netherlands ...

Great, more African asylum seekers.

[SD_Film Artists]

Yes.

The more interesting question is: what about when an Afrikaner moves to the United States? Are they African-American? I'd say no: being African-American is a cultural identity and an Afrikaner-American would be considered white, not African-American.

But even more interestingly: are Americans of (recent) Bantu ancestry African-American but not Americans of Afrikaner ancestry?

Regardless of the truth, a black British person of Jamaican decent will still likely be referred as an "African American"