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Are Afrikaners African?

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Rojava Free State
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Are Afrikaners African?

Postby Rojava Free State » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:29 pm

What makes a man one with the soil he resides on? His loyalty? His genetic origin? His language? His religion? For countless eons we have asked what makes a person part of a nation and part of a people, and into the present day we continue to wonder. One good example of this is the Afrikaaner people of South Africa, Zambia, Namibia, and Zimbabwe, descendants of Dutch, German and French immigrants to Southern Africa. The Afrikaaners have lived in the region for hundreds of years, their population centered around the country of South Africa, and they have etched out a living as farmers in the African savanna. Their ethnic name literally means "African," and their culture has been heavily influenced by the time spent on the continent. However, some would argue that due to the genetic lineage of the Afrikaaners as Europeans, they are not truly an African people. In my opinion, the Afrikaaners are indeed Africans, having resided in Africa for hundreds of years, and they are a part of the continent. Their genetic lineage from Europe changes nothing. So what are your thoughts NSers? How long must an ethnic group reside on a continent before it can claim the continent as a home? And is homeland determined by genetics or by the soil one is born on?
Last edited by Farnhamia on Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Corrected spelling of "Afrikaners"
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Postby Albrenia » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:36 pm

To me, one can call a place home if they are born there or gain citizenship at some point in their life.

So, any Afrikaaners who have a citizenship from somewhere in Africa are African. Much like how I am Australian, not British, despite the fact most of my recent ancestors come from Europe or the UK, save one or two generations.

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Postby The Black Forrest » Mon Jun 15, 2020 7:56 pm

Considering they have been there since the 18 century?......yes they are.
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Postby Farnhamia » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:00 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:Considering they have been there since the 18 century?......yes they are.

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Postby Bear Stearns » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:04 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:Considering they have been there since the 18 century?......yes they are.


*17th Century. Cape Town was settled before some of the 13 Colonies were.
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Postby Heloin » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:23 pm

Most of my family have been living in Africa since Cape Town was a Castle in the shadow of of Table Mountain. If I'm not African why are you American?
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Postby New haven america » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:27 pm

Heloin wrote:Most of my family have been living in Africa since Cape Town was a Castle in the shadow of of Table Mountain. If I'm not African why are you American?

You'd be surprised how many people don't consider European/African descended people who were born and are living in America as actually North/South American.
Last edited by New haven america on Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Bear Stearns » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:28 pm

New haven america wrote:
Heloin wrote:Most of my family have been living in Africa since Cape Town was a Castle in the shadow of of Table Mountain. If I'm not African why are you American?

You'd be surprised how many people don't consider European/Africa descended people who were born and are living in America as actually North/South American.


It's commonly brought up in immigration debates.
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Postby Bombadil » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:29 pm

I always have an issue with 'where are you from', or 'what is your nationality'.. I was born in the UK, brought up in South Africa and lived in HK for the majority of my life.. to be honest I find the question annoying, it kind of provides a reference point for people I know but it also comes loaded with assumptions that detract from, basically, who I am.
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Postby San Marlindo » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:34 pm

I see this question pop up every couple years and am genuinely confused by it.

Nobody ever questions that blonde-haired, blue-eyed Brazilians, Bolivians, Cubans, or Mexicans are truly Latin Americans. Nobody has ever demanded Fidel Castro and Che Guevara go back to Europe.

Yet for some reason in the Anglosphere, in countries like Canada, the US, Australia, New Zealand, and yes, I'm including South Africa in this equation, there appears to be some debate in intellectual circles as to whether the white folks who live in those countries and form decisive demographic blocs in those countries can rightfully be described as truly "American", "Australian", etc since after all the only 'true' Americans, Australians, New Zealanders, and South Africans are black or red and not white. This is reflected in the growing use of the terms "European American" and so forth, hinting at some closer tie to a European ancestral homeland rather than the only continent most of these people have ever seen. It is also reflected in a growing trend to castigate white South Africans as being essentially Europeans rather than Africans, a trend further complicated by the fact that many of its proponents consider "African" a race rather than a series of nationalities, and cannot reconcile this with describing any white person as an African.

The only explanation I can think of for this is a serious fracturing of the traditional white Anglophone identity among the educated classes in the Americas and the Commonwealth bloc (note that the lower class whites rarely concern themselves with such matters, even those who are politically active), and this is part of that fracturing, coupled with white guilt over the sins of one's ancestors in exterminating the indigenous peoples. This identity crisis is encouraged by unscrupulous members of ethnic minorities who live in those countries, namely South Africa, who seem to think that putting other people down and adopting xenophobic attitudes towards their fellow countrymen is a way to empower themselves. I'm looking at you, Julius Malema.

In the US, I find it especially galling when certain individuals lecture me on how white Americans are actually Europeans while advocating for the rights of Hispanics from down south to come here and call themselves Americans. Shame on you.

Look, I don't care what you look like. We all are who we are. You a Norwegian who wants to move to South Africa and call yourself a South African? Be my guest. You a Guatemalan who wants to move to America and call yourself an American? Welcome! That's what my mother and I did, what my friend in Louisiana did too. Becoming an American had nothing to do with what was on our passports. We each had to make a conscious choice to identify as one.
Last edited by San Marlindo on Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Rojava Free State » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:36 pm

Heloin wrote:Most of my family have been living in Africa since Cape Town was a Castle in the shadow of of Table Mountain. If I'm not African why are you American?


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Postby Xmara » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:40 pm

Are white Americans true Americans? Because, I mean, we weren't the first ones there.
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Postby Bear Stearns » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:41 pm

Xmara wrote:Are white Americans true Americans? Because, I mean, we weren't the first ones there.


First ones to landmass of North America? No.

First ones to the United States of America? Yes.
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Postby Heloin » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:42 pm

Bombadil wrote:I always have an issue with 'where are you from', or 'what is your nationality'.. I was born in the UK, brought up in South Africa and lived in HK for the majority of my life.. to be honest I find the question annoying, it kind of provides a reference point for people I know but it also comes loaded with assumptions that detract from, basically, who I am.

There's a Zimbabwean joke about a White farmer. He goes up to the immigration official in Beitbridge and the Saffer is looking over his defunct Rhodesian passport. So the Saffer asks the Farmer, "What's your nationality?" The Farmer thinks for a moment before answering, "Well I grew up in Kenya in the Highlands, I farmed in Zambia, was a British Citizen during Federation, had the vote In Rhodesia, and have lived in Zimbabwe for a decade. But actually I was born at sea, of Irish Parents."
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Postby Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:42 pm

They are Africans not predominately of Indigenous African heritage.
Last edited by Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio on Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Major-Tom » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:42 pm

If that's how they choose to identify, sure.
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Postby Xmara » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:45 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:
Xmara wrote:Are white Americans true Americans? Because, I mean, we weren't the first ones there.


First ones to landmass of North America? No.

First ones to the United States of America? Yes.

I'm talking about the people who lived on the landmass known as North America before Europeans arrived (Native Americans).
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Postby Bear Stearns » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:46 pm

Xmara wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:
First ones to landmass of North America? No.

First ones to the United States of America? Yes.

I'm talking about the people who lived on the landmass known as North America before Europeans arrived (Native Americans).


Yes
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Postby San Marlindo » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:46 pm

Heloin wrote:
Bombadil wrote:I always have an issue with 'where are you from', or 'what is your nationality'.. I was born in the UK, brought up in South Africa and lived in HK for the majority of my life.. to be honest I find the question annoying, it kind of provides a reference point for people I know but it also comes loaded with assumptions that detract from, basically, who I am.

There's a Zimbabwean joke about a White farmer. He goes up to the immigration official in Beitbridge and the Saffer is looking over his defunct Rhodesian passport. So the Saffer asks the Farmer, "What's your nationality?" The Farmer thinks for a moment before answering, "Well I grew up in Kenya in the Highlands, I farmed in Zambia, was a British Citizen during Federation, had the vote In Rhodesia, and have lived in Zimbabwe for a decade. But actually I was born at sea, of Irish Parents."


I recall reading about a historian who was looking at old military records from the US in the 1860s. He remarked there was always the occasional individual who listed his nationality as "the ocean".
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Postby Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:51 pm

Xmara wrote:Are white Americans true Americans? Because, I mean, we weren't the first ones there.

People living on either of the Americas are Americans, not necessarily of Indigenous American heritage.

White people from the USA are Americans not predominately of indigenous American heritage.
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Postby Kombinita Socialisma Demokratio » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:52 pm

New haven america wrote:
Heloin wrote:Most of my family have been living in Africa since Cape Town was a Castle in the shadow of of Table Mountain. If I'm not African why are you American?

You'd be surprised how many people don't consider European/African descended people who were born and are living in America as actually North/South American.

My brother only considers non-Hispanic and non-Asian people in the USA "Americans"...
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Internationalism score: 33
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Liberalism score: 83
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Postby Heloin » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:53 pm

San Marlindo wrote:
Heloin wrote:There's a Zimbabwean joke about a White farmer. He goes up to the immigration official in Beitbridge and the Saffer is looking over his defunct Rhodesian passport. So the Saffer asks the Farmer, "What's your nationality?" The Farmer thinks for a moment before answering, "Well I grew up in Kenya in the Highlands, I farmed in Zambia, was a British Citizen during Federation, had the vote In Rhodesia, and have lived in Zimbabwe for a decade. But actually I was born at sea, of Irish Parents."


I recall reading about a historian who was looking at old military records from the US in the 1860s. He remarked there was always the occasional individual who listed his nationality as "the ocean".

Fish people confirmed.
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Postby Farnhamia » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:56 pm

Heloin wrote:
San Marlindo wrote:
I recall reading about a historian who was looking at old military records from the US in the 1860s. He remarked there was always the occasional individual who listed his nationality as "the ocean".

Fish people confirmed.

Well, yeah ...
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Postby Bombadil » Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:57 pm

Heloin wrote:
Bombadil wrote:I always have an issue with 'where are you from', or 'what is your nationality'.. I was born in the UK, brought up in South Africa and lived in HK for the majority of my life.. to be honest I find the question annoying, it kind of provides a reference point for people I know but it also comes loaded with assumptions that detract from, basically, who I am.

There's a Zimbabwean joke about a White farmer. He goes up to the immigration official in Beitbridge and the Saffer is looking over his defunct Rhodesian passport. So the Saffer asks the Farmer, "What's your nationality?" The Farmer thinks for a moment before answering, "Well I grew up in Kenya in the Highlands, I farmed in Zambia, was a British Citizen during Federation, had the vote In Rhodesia, and have lived in Zimbabwe for a decade. But actually I was born at sea, of Irish Parents."


Well quite, part of the issue, and weirdly non-white people in the US and UK get this but you have the question 'but where are you originally from?', when I answer I'm from HK. So, fine, I say I was born in the UK but then they use that as a reference to talk about the UK.

Thing is.. I know bugger all about the UK, I don't even know where various places are, I left when I was 3 years old.. it's just, it's boring really.

I know Asian Brits who get this, even though their family has been there for generations, 'where are you originally from?', and when they finally say, India for example, people are all 'oh I love Indian food', and then even might mention a dish that didn't even originate in India, it originated in the UK.

Like, lemon chicken in Chinese restaurants.. few in China would recognise that as a dish.
Last edited by Bombadil on Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Krasny-Volny » Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:15 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Heloin wrote:There's a Zimbabwean joke about a White farmer. He goes up to the immigration official in Beitbridge and the Saffer is looking over his defunct Rhodesian passport. So the Saffer asks the Farmer, "What's your nationality?" The Farmer thinks for a moment before answering, "Well I grew up in Kenya in the Highlands, I farmed in Zambia, was a British Citizen during Federation, had the vote In Rhodesia, and have lived in Zimbabwe for a decade. But actually I was born at sea, of Irish Parents."


Well quite, part of the issue, and weirdly non-white people in the US and UK get this but you have the question 'but where are you originally from?', when I answer I'm from HK. So, fine, I say I was born in the UK but then they use that as a reference to talk about the UK.


You're far from the only one, I daresay.

I get this wherever I go too. Both in the US and overseas. If people on either side of the pond persist in asking me where I'm from, I just as persistently tell them I'm from the US and proud of it. This is a great time to demonstrate how patriotic I am. They usually then reframe the question in terms of ethnicity, because nobody can tell where I'm "supposed" to be from, anyway.

Like most people in the southern US, I get a huge kick out of reciting my long and checkered family history, usually with a tall tale or two thrown in for good measure. I make a game out of it, see how far I can make them suspend their disbelief while remaining courteous and straight-faced. It's always loads of fun.
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