“Non-Binary”: Are There Only Two?

[Nobel Hobos 2]

"considered masculine" and "masculine, biologically" don't seem to go together

Let me introduce you to some incels. Biological masculinity is more of a fact than “male gender”. You can’t measure people’s genders, but you can measure their jawline.

"looks masculine" OK got it.

[Crockerland]

At this point, I’ve really stopped caring and just respond with an “alright, mate, sure”. Whenever it’s brought up.

However I’ll stick to sexual identity (in where there are two: male and female) in most cases.

Intersex people,

Intersex people are male or female.

hermaphrodites,

Hermaphrodite is an antiquated term for intersex people.

XXY,

XXY (Klinefelter Syndrome) is specifically defined as a condition which occurs in males
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/klinefelter-syndrome

Klinefelter syndrome is a chromosomal condition in boys and men that can affect physical and intellectual development. Most commonly, affected individuals are taller than average are unable to father biological children (infertile); however the signs and symptoms of Klinefelter syndrome vary among boys and men with this condition. In some cases, the features of the condition are so mild that the condition is not diagnosed until puberty or adulthood, and researchers believe that up to 75 percent of affected men and boys are never diagnosed.

XYY,

XYY (Jacob's Syndrome) is also a condition in males:
https://www.healthline.com/health/xyy-syndrome

Most people have 46 chromosomes in each cell. In males, this typically includes one X chromosome and one Y chromosome (XY). XYY syndrome is a genetic condition that occurs when a male has an extra copy of the Y chromosome in each of their cells (XYY). Sometimes, this mutation is only present in some cells. Males with XYY syndrome have 47 chromosomes because of the extra Y chromosome.

This condition is also sometimes called Jacob’s syndrome, XYY karyotype, or YY syndrome. According to the National Institutes of Health, XYY syndrome occurs in 1 out of every 1,000 boys.

XXX, etc...

XXX (Triple X Syndrome) is a condition which occurs in females.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/triple-x-syndrome/symptoms-causes/syc-20350977

Triple X syndrome, also called trisomy X or 47,XXX, is a genetic disorder that affects about 1 in 1,000 females. Females normally have two X chromosomes in all cells — one X chromosome from each parent. In triple X syndrome, a female has three X chromosomes.

Many girls and women with triple X syndrome don't experience symptoms or have only mild symptoms. In others, symptoms may be more apparent — possibly including developmental delays and learning disabilities. Seizures and kidney abnormalities occur in a small number of girls and women with triple X syndrome.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/berdache

“Berdache, also called (since 1990) two-spirit, early European designation for American Indians (in Canada called First Nations peoples) who did not conform to Western gender and sexual norms. The term held negative implications for a variety of sexual behavior, gender practices, and various physical sex characteristics. Since then, it has been utilized in anthropology and other disciplines to define American Indian homosexuality, transgenderism, and intersexuality.”


Binary western genders are a hoax.

Wow, a slur against gay natives, what a progressive new gender!

[VVerkia]

The way non-binary has been explained to me is: "someone who identifies with neither sex" and I cannot for the life of me understand how that is possible. I cannot see how someone wouldnt feel at least some internal preference for either one of the 2 sexes at the very least, and therefore would be forced to identify as neither.

I can see it by analogy. Eg. in other topic question was "what race you are". I don't really care what race i'am, i only see what colour of skin i have. Or someone could ask "which team you favor". I don't. In that analogy i can visualise how someone can view own gender as neither. I don't know if i understand that person pov, but it's way i imagine it to try understand.

[Crockerland]

I mean a lot of gay men are attracted to men who aren’t considered masculine, biologically...

Biology isn’t gender. If gay men are all attracted to the “male gender”, then they should all love masculine traits. But it’s not that simple.

Gay men are not real men according to many men.

[Auzkhia]

Only two? Why would people limit themselves to only two?

And yeah, I'm non-binary, simply because my gender does not fit neatly into the female-male binary. I have a lot of words for mine, and some do not, but that's ok, since I have a good amount of the gender. Gender is complex, messy, fluid, gaseous, and for the unlucky few, solid.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

If there was a third gender, with its own characteristic looks and behaviour, it would take a long time to become widely recognized AS a gender. The fewer of them, the longer it would take, and there would forever be some people who just couldn't recognize it. "What is that, it must be a man or a woman, there are no other options".

How much longer it would take if there wasn't just a third, but a fourth, fifth etc. They'd all be mistaken for one, very diverse, gender. Only because they're not men or women.

Dunno where I'm going with this. Tired.

[Minskiev]

Personally, the genders I recognize are those who put cereal before milk, and those who put milk before cereal. And not to be sexist or anything, but the former is far superior.

Edited to not be taken wildly out of context

[The Blaatschapen]

The way non-binary has been explained to me is: "someone who identifies with neither sex" and I cannot for the life of me understand how that is possible. I cannot see how someone wouldnt feel at least some internal preference for either one of the 2 sexes at the very least, and therefore would be forced to identify as neither.

I can see it by analogy. Eg. in other topic question was "what race you are". I don't really care what race i'am, i only see what colour of skin i have. Or someone could ask "which team you favor". I don't. In that analogy i can visualise how someone can view own gender as neither. I don't know if i understand that person pov, but it's way i imagine it to try understand.

I somehow feel that white supremacists should answer the "what race you are" question with "Nascar"

[Geneviev]

Ben Shapiro isn't the best. Anyway, here's the facts.

Interesting. But this isn't an issue of feelings, this is an issue of facts. I'm born a male, therfore I'm a man. Surely I do have some feminine qualities and behaviors, but I'm not anything but a man. Our feelings work within gender, not outside of it. One can call me a "Feminine male" or something of the sort, but just because I display attributes normally attributed to women doesn't change the fact I am a man- and just because someone feels they aren't their gender, doesn't mean they are.

You're born a man and have a male brain. Some people are born a man and have a female brain, which is actually proven to exist neurologically. So it's not about feelings, it's about facts of neuroscience. Not fitting a stereotype isn't the same thing as not being the gender you were assigned at birth.

[Centai Mal]

On the basis that intersex people actually exist - i.e. people with a sex that is neither male not female - I don't doubt that non-binary people exist, if we specifically correlate gender as being analogous to sex.

Intersex conditions are not a separate sex from male or female, hence why if you go to medical sources and look up the conditions, they will tell you which sex the conditions affect - even including those which deviate from the standard chromosomes of the two genders. I listed out several of these on a separate thread a while ago so I'll just repost that quote here:

XXY (Klinefelter Syndrome) is specifically defined as a condition which occurs in males
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/klinefelter-syndrome

Klinefelter syndrome is a chromosomal condition in boys and men that can affect physical and intellectual development. Most commonly, affected individuals are taller than average are unable to father biological children (infertile); however the signs and symptoms of Klinefelter syndrome vary among boys and men with this condition. In some cases, the features of the condition are so mild that the condition is not diagnosed until puberty or adulthood, and researchers believe that up to 75 percent of affected men and boys are never diagnosed.

XYY (Jacob's Syndrome) is also a condition in males:
https://www.healthline.com/health/xyy-syndrome

Most people have 46 chromosomes in each cell. In males, this typically includes one X chromosome and one Y chromosome (XY). XYY syndrome is a genetic condition that occurs when a male has an extra copy of the Y chromosome in each of their cells (XYY). Sometimes, this mutation is only present in some cells. Males with XYY syndrome have 47 chromosomes because of the extra Y chromosome.

This condition is also sometimes called Jacob’s syndrome, XYY karyotype, or YY syndrome. According to the National Institutes of Health, XYY syndrome occurs in 1 out of every 1,000 boys.

XXYY, similarly, is a condition found in males:
https://genetic.org/48xxyy-and-intersex-conditions/

The XXYY Project wishes to correct a misunderstanding that has been derived from the definition of Intersex, as it relates to the sex of the child. Children born with the XXYY chromosomal makeup are:

Always male – unless there is some other factor involved
[...]

If by "XO" you are referring to 45,X0 - Turner Syndrome, that is found exclusively in females
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/turner-syndrome/symptoms-causes/syc-20360782

Turner syndrome, a condition that affects only females, results when one of the X chromosomes (sex chromosomes) is missing or partially missing. Turner syndrome can cause a variety of medical and developmental problems, including short height, failure of the ovaries to develop and heart defects.

Turner syndrome may be diagnosed before birth (prenatally), during infancy or in early childhood. Occasionally, in females with mild signs and symptoms of Turner syndrome, the diagnosis is delayed until the teen or young adult years.

Girls and women with Turner syndrome need ongoing medical care from a variety of specialists. Regular checkups and appropriate care can help most girls and women lead healthy, independent lives.

All the conditions you listed affect people who are genetically either male or female, the fact that they have a genetic disorder does not mean they are now some kind of third gender.

Intersex people are not a third gender.

There's also the historical precedent of multiple non-binary genders found in many non-Western cultures, lending credence to this not being some new invention.

As I highlighted earlier in the thread, these "multiple non-binary genders" are usually just prejudiced, backwards societies labeling people a third gender because a man who is feminine and/or gay is "not a real man." The bigotry of non-Western cultures is nothing to romanticize.

Intersex conditions are not necessarily chromosomal and sex-linked, as you have some cases of what Is referred to back in the day as “hermaphroditism” where the genitalia is somewhere between what are traditionally considered male and female. I suggest you brush up a lot more on intersex individuals.

It’s also incredibly ignorant to attempt to dismiss historical third genders (such as the Native American “two-spirit” identity) because it was simply “an effeminate man”. Seriously, do some more work that google before trying to debate these things

[Aureumterra]

You can identify as whatever as long as it doesn’t harm anyone else or be outright ridiculous (like the guy in Virginia who identified as a dog)

I really don’t see why people have a problem with that

[Crockerland]

Intersex conditions are not a separate sex from male or female, hence why if you go to medical sources and look up the conditions, they will tell you which sex the conditions affect - even including those which deviate from the standard chromosomes of the two genders. I listed out several of these on a separate thread a while ago so I'll just repost that quote here:




Intersex people are not a third gender.



As I highlighted earlier in the thread, these "multiple non-binary genders" are usually just prejudiced, backwards societies labeling people a third gender because a man who is feminine and/or gay is "not a real man." The bigotry of non-Western cultures is nothing to romanticize.

Intersex conditions are not necessarily chromosomal and sex-linked, as you have some cases of what Is referred to back in the day as “hermaphroditism” where the genitalia is somewhere between what are traditionally considered male and female. I suggest you brush up a lot more on intersex individuals.

It’s also incredibly ignorant to attempt to dismiss historical third genders (such as the Native American “two-spirit” identity) because it was simply “an effeminate man”. Seriously, do some more work that google before trying to debate these things

Wow, that's a hilarious amount of irony and projection. You have no idea what you're talking about and couldn't formulate even a single argument.

And "two spirit" is not a historical identity, it was made up in 1990 by white people in Canada.

[Centai Mal]

Intersex conditions are not necessarily chromosomal and sex-linked, as you have some cases of what Is referred to back in the day as “hermaphroditism” where the genitalia is somewhere between what are traditionally considered male and female. I suggest you brush up a lot more on intersex individuals.

It’s also incredibly ignorant to attempt to dismiss historical third genders (such as the Native American “two-spirit” identity) because it was simply “an effeminate man”. Seriously, do some more work that google before trying to debate these things

Wow, that's a hilarious amount of irony and projection. You have no idea what you're talking about and couldn't formulate even a single argument.

I responded to both of your points. The fact that you can’t follow that, and can’t argue against the points I made and have to resort to ad-hominem with no other substance, is not my fault.

Unlike you, I bother to do research because I don’t enjoy shitting on people’s identities without at least knowing what I’m talking about

[VVerkia]

I can see it by analogy. Eg. in other topic question was "what race you are". I don't really care what race i'am, i only see what colour of skin i have. Or someone could ask "which team you favor". I don't. In that analogy i can visualise how someone can view own gender as neither. I don't know if i understand that person pov, but it's way i imagine it to try understand.

I somehow feel that white supremacists should answer the "what race you are" question with "Nascar"

Or "NFS: Most Wanted"

[Crockerland]

Wow, that's a hilarious amount of irony and projection. You have no idea what you're talking about and couldn't formulate even a single argument.

I responded to both of your points. The fact that you can’t follow that, and can’t argue against the points I made and have to resort to ad-hominem with no other substance, is not my fault.

You didn't make any points.

[Palmyrion]

The most common mistake - and as a gray aro/ace I'll say this about the LGBT community in a game of "criticise the one thing you love the most" - is conflating gender identity and expression, and sexual orientation. The acronym SOGI/SOGIE* stems from the need to keep sexual orientation, gender identity, and gender expression distinct (and you might even add a "romantic orientation" component to accommodate the aromantics), and it's best summarised in "The Genderbread Person":

Yes, I know it just got hairier with the sliders there. And I'm gonna contest the "gender isn't binary" bit there: if gender isn't binary, why is there just two slider options, and that is "maleness" and "femaleness"?

EDIT: Here's Genderbread Person v4. Apparently I posted Genderbread Person v2.1. But my contest of the "gender isn't binary" bit remains: if gender isn't binary, why are there only two slider options for Sexual Orientation, Gender Identity, and Gender Expression, and those are pretty much just "male" and "female"?

*interchangeably used, but I just went with SOGIE because it's how it's done here in the Philippines.

[Centai Mal]

I responded to both of your points. The fact that you can’t follow that, and can’t argue against the points I made and have to resort to ad-hominem with no other substance, is not my fault.

You didn't make any points.

I’m sorry you can’t read. Maybe you should go ask your mom to help you sound out the words I used, and help you understand what they mean.

[Crockerland]

You didn't make any points.

I’m sorry you can’t read. Maybe you should go ask your mom to help you sound out the words I used, and help you understand what they mean.

It's funny how you were crying about ad hominems, after you ad hominem attacked me, and now you're just insulting me because you have no argument or basis for whatever you're going on about. "Using actual valid medical sources?? OMG You're so ignorant!"

[Necroghastia]

There Are Only Two Genders, Sincerely A Trans-Woman

There Are Way More Than Two Genders, Sincerely A Trans-Woman

(also why are we doing the caps thing did i miss something in the evil trans agenda)

[Giovenith]

I identify myself as an attack helicopter.

And I identify as not being impressed by unimaginative, overused insults.

*** Warned for Trolling ***

[Nolo gap]

fewer pregnancies would be a very GOOD thing.

male and female are physical (but trivial outside of sexual reproduction)

masculine and feminine are psychobabble phony gratuitous behavioral exaggerations.
(and no one NEEDS either one)

[Arkhane]

If people think assigning gender labels are harmful, why create more labels?

By saying you are non-binary, you are reinforcing the idea that there is a binary that you can deviate from to begin with.

If you are a woman who enjoys things that are usually expected or stereotypicaly preferred by men, that doesn't make you any less of a woman or feminine. Your personal preferences simply happen to be usually attributed to what men prefer, there's no need to "figure out" or create a new label.

Therein lies the true freedom of expressing yourself.

[Centai Mal]

I’m sorry you can’t read. Maybe you should go ask your mom to help you sound out the words I used, and help you understand what they mean.

It's funny how you were crying about ad hominems, after you ad hominem attacked me, and now you're just insulting me because you have no argument or basis for whatever you're going on about. "Using actual valid medical sources?? OMG You're so ignorant!"

Look, I’m sorry for not caring that you are unwilling to do more research, or be slightly more empathetic and willing to be educated. You have devalued and misrepresented both intersex individuals and traditional/historical third genders in other cultures, simply to suit your own opinion.

If you’re willing to change ANY of the behavior, you’re welcome to, but right now you really reek of “superior white man”

[Necroghastia]

If people think assigning gender labels are harmful, why create more labels?

By saying you are non-binary, you are reinforcing the idea that there is a binary that you can deviate from to begin with.

If you are a woman who enjoys things that are usually expected or stereotypicaly preferred by men, that doesn't make you any less of a woman or feminine. Your personal preferences simply happen to be usually attributed to what men prefer, there's no need to "figure out" or create a new label.

Therein lies the true freedom of expressing yourself.

Except that that's not why trans people ID the way they do in the first place.
Also, more labels are created precisely because they aren't assigned - they are freely selected by someone who feels that that label fits them best, instead of being arbitrarily handed one based on their junk.

[Crockerland]

If you are a woman who enjoys things that are usually expected or stereotypicaly preferred by men, that doesn't make you any less of a woman or feminine. Your personal preferences simply happen to be usually attributed to what men prefer, there's no need to "figure out" or create a new label.

Well that's true, but I don't think transgender people generally just "enjoy things that are usually expected or stereotypically preferred by [the other gender]," I don't think that's what gender dysphoria is.

I'm not trans so this is just my personal understanding of it, but I think it's more like if everyone you met in life called you by the opposite pronouns and referred to you as the opposite gender, you just wouldn't feel comfortable because you don't identify as the opposite gender. It's not just "oh I like wearing pretty dresses I'm gonna be a woman now" so much as "I hate when people call me a man," the same way I would hate it if everyone called me by the opposite gender's pronouns all the time, and I imagine you would hate it if everyone did the same to you.