NationStates

One of the eternal debates is whether parents have the right to physically chastise their children to punish them for misbehaviour, and the mass hooliganism of mostly young 'protesting' adults lately in the UK in which public property has been destroyed and police assaulted with missiles has revived the debate.
There are some older people, including me, who understand intuitively this violent antisocial behaviour springs from impulses which were unchecked in childhoods where traditional parental discipline was absent. We have seen the pragmatic common-sense upon which corporal punishment is based and the total, inalienable authority of parents over their children that enables it, superseded by the notion of inalienable human rights which has become enshrined in law, making physical punishment a form of child abuse.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... viral.html

Is this child abuse? The Caribbean mother of the girl aged twelve defended her behaviour to the media by explaining her daughter had been unmanageable since her husband abandoned his family. Despite seeking psychological intervention for her daughter, her behaviour had escalated and that she had hit her daughter with a belt in the last resort after discovering she had been exchanging sexually charged messages and indecent photographs on Facebook with a teenage boy who she had met at school.
Her daughter has since apparently learnt the errors of her behaviour. In a message to the media, she said she was sorry for the shame which her behaviour had inflicted upon her mother, and had a message of appeal for other girls to learn from the video of her beating.

You are a special piece of God’s puzzle.And don’t let what happen to me happen to you also.

I don't entirely understand what this argument implies.

You're stating that corporal punishment for children is acceptable because of examples of people who were not punished that way during childhood?

Beating children just results in further animosity between parent and child. It is, to all intents and purposes, child abuse.

Also, requesting that OP find a better source than daily mail.

Corporal punishment is only acceptable on adults.

Disclaimer: I didn't watch the video. I've been triggered by similar content in the past. In fact, I strongly suggest you include a non-PG-13 warning next to your link if you don't want to get reported.

My Asian parents used to beat me a lot when I was a kid, right up until I was about 14 and I began to physically lash out in response, and being a dude helped. While I recognize that they love me and wanted the best for me and I've forgiven them for it, it still doesn't make it right.

The more you beat someone, the more you teach them that might makes right. A parent beating a child into submission is no different than a Chinese police officer punching and kicking a woman for not wearing a face mask. It's no different than a jealous, vindictive god opening up the earth beneath a village of men, women, and children because he doesn't like what they do in bed.

All this for a non-violent transgression by her daughter. This bitch should be in jail for at least 10-15 years for child abuse. No excuses. It's 2020, not 1990. One day, her daughter's going to grow up and hit her back. In the meantime, social services should take her in. What she could've done as a very last resort is something along these lines.

It is a wrong; let us call it for what it is - physical abuse.

As far as I am concerned the issue is not as simple as the OP or public makes it out to be. Some degree of corporal punishment is indeed a good thing. Pain teaches. It is literally natures way to teach us what to do and what not to do. And it is foolish to reject it as a teaching tool because of this. The problem is when it crosses over from that and into beating. A slap across the face can be a learning experience. But the only thing broken ribs will teach you is that might makes right.

This of course is assuming we are talking about children that do not have severe behavioral problems. But like normal children. If you have children that are just severely deranged and act out like little monsters than frankly I don't know what you can do. And part of me thinks they are just beyond fixing. But that's a different discussion.

Beating children does not produce lasting results, only produces a fragile relationship built almost entirely on fear. Also, it is ethically wrong.

The lesson it teaches is get your own way by hitting people.

I have some extremely vile things to say about people who support corporal punishment that will obviously get me banned by the ban hammer of Reploid or by other means of mod intervention. Anyways, corporal punishment is abuse and there are studies that prove that spanking decreases children's IQ. If you want your child to be a dumb unquestioning slave that will obey all your commands including things such as "kill your grandmother", then sure, spank them. If not, then don't.

Political Geography wrote:

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:The lesson it teaches is get your own way by hitting people.

Parents "hit" their children when they do something wrong. AFTER. So parents don't get their own way. They punish children.

So isn't it more like punish people for doing what you don't like, by hitting them?

The thing is, who gets to decide what is "wrong"? Is voting for Trump wrong? How about accidentally making a hammer and sickle sign using hand gestures?

Political Geography wrote:

Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory wrote:I have some extremely vile things to say about people who support corporal punishment that will obviously get me banned by the ban hammer of Reploid or by other means of mod intervention. Anyways, corporal punishment is abuse and there are studies that prove that spanking decreases children's IQ. If you want your child to be a dumb unquestioning slave that will obey all your commands including things such as "kill your grandmother", then sure, spank them. If not, then don't.

Show this study that spanking reduces IQ, please.

https://www.livescience.com/7895-childr ... d-iqs.html

Political Geography wrote:

Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory wrote:The thing is, who gets to decide what is "wrong"? Is voting for Trump wrong? How about accidentally making a hammer and sickle sign using hand gestures?

The kind of things little kids do are quite easy to judge right or wrong. Hitting your little sister is wrong, that gets a spanking. Running around the house with no clothes on, not so wrong, no spanking.

It doesn't quite hit as an eye for an eye, doesn't it? You are a damn adult, way stronger than a child is. What if instead the little sister hits them as an eye for an eye punishment?

Political Geography wrote:

Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory wrote:https://www.livescience.com/7895-childr ... d-iqs.html


It doesn't quite hit as an eye for an eye, doesn't it? You are a damn adult, way stronger than a child is. What if instead the little sister hits them as an eye for an eye punishment?

I never said "eye for an eye" and the example you gave shows why.

Spanking a child for hitting another child (while you are an adult) is definitely excessive for an "eye for an eye" punishment, which I support partially.

Political Geography wrote:

Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory wrote:I have some extremely vile things to say about people who support corporal punishment that will obviously get me banned by the ban hammer of Reploid or by other means of mod intervention. Anyways, corporal punishment is abuse and there are studies that prove that spanking decreases children's IQ. If you want your child to be a dumb unquestioning slave that will obey all your commands including things such as "kill your grandmother", then sure, spank them. If not, then don't.

Show this study that spanking reduces IQ, please.

Here.

Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory wrote:[...] is definitely excessive for an "eye for an eye" punishment, which I support partially.

...which makes the world go blind.

In most civilised countries, beating your partner is a crime that can land you in jail. Going out on the street and beating someone else will get you anything from strange looks to a jail sentence. Beating other people's kids' is also criminal.

The very idea that one can except to these natural laws when it pertains to their own children is flabbergasting. No, you don't have a moral right to hit people, regardless of what's in their DNA or how long they've been born for. Is it really that hard?

We have seen the pragmatic common-sense upon which corporal punishment is based and the total, inalienable authority of parents over their children that enables it, superseded by the notion of inalienable human rights which has become enshrined in law, making physical punishment a form of child abuse.

The basis of a liberal democracy is that the Law supersedes your individual wishes. It's called the Rule of Law. I will assume the best of you and therefore assume that you do not support the total inalienable parental authority you describe. I will therefore constructively ask where you think the limit stands, and why do acts that qualify as criminal outside the parent-child relationship become morally correct within it?

-Astoria wrote:

Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory wrote:[...] is definitely excessive for an "eye for an eye" punishment, which I support partially.

...which makes the world go blind.

that's why I said partially.

It's inneffective and harmful.

Political Geography wrote:

Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory wrote:The thing is, who gets to decide what is "wrong"? Is voting for Trump wrong? How about accidentally making a hammer and sickle sign using hand gestures?

The kind of things little kids do are quite easy to judge right or wrong. Hitting your little sister is wrong, that gets a spanking. Running around the house with no clothes on, not so wrong, no spanking.

I’m sorry, but how exactly do you teach a child that hitting people is wrong by hitting them?

Dazchan wrote:

Political Geography wrote:
The kind of things little kids do are quite easy to judge right or wrong. Hitting your little sister is wrong, that gets a spanking. Running around the house with no clothes on, not so wrong, no spanking.

I’m sorry, but how exactly do you teach a child that hitting people is wrong by hitting them?

Oh boy this would backfire so badly.

Political Geography wrote:

Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory wrote:Spanking a child for hitting another child (while you are an adult) is definitely excessive for an "eye for an eye" punishment, which I support partially.

So tell the younger child to get revenge, and tell the older child to just stand there and take it?

That thing - which is already bad - is a lesser evil compared to spanking and nations like P*litical G*ography support it. Think about it for a second.

Corporal Punishment in Schools is permitted in 18 US States which kind of puts lie to your linking of mass hooliganism to the lack of such discipline.
US statistics also show that Black students are 2.5 times more likely to be physically punished than white or Hispanics students. Which is eerily close to the rate for killings in Police custody.

Anyway Corporal Punishment is only effectively applied when there is major power imbalance, when small children are unable to defend themselves against an adult aggressor.
There are far better approaches to the such discipline and more needs to be done to support families.

Political Geography wrote:

Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory wrote:That thing - which is already bad - is a lesser evil compared to spanking and nations like P*litical G*ography support it. Think about it for a second.

Is your sort-of "eye for an eye" philosophy applicable to small children at all? If not, why did you bring it up?

Think about this - this "eye for an eye" punishment which is obviously overkill is still a lesser even compared to spanking and yet some people still support it. It is to prove that your viewpoint is ridiculous - and move the pole from pro-spanking to this eye for an eye thing.

Political Geography wrote:

Cetacea wrote:Corporal Punishment in Schools is permitted in 18 US States which kind of puts lie to your linking of mass hooliganism to the lack of such discipline.
US statistics also show that Black students are 2.5 times more likely to be physically punished than white or Hispanics students. Which is eerily close to the rate for killings in Police custody.

Anyway Corporal Punishment is only effectively applied when there is major power imbalance, when small children are unable to defend themselves against an adult aggressor.
There are far better approaches to the such discipline and more needs to be done to support families.

It's hardly ever used in schools, I thought. Much more a parent thing.

Corporal punishment only for small children is the first thing I said. As to when to stop, I trust parents to know when it's no longer shocking to the child, then it is just producing resentment and they should stop.

Some people don't believe in discipline at all. If they can modify a child's behavior by reasoning with the child then I wish them luck.

Still not justified, lol. "Parents know best"? Let's change "parent" to the "party", or "state", or "General Secretary" and you would be up in arms. Corporal punishment, for small children? Yeah right, using it for older children is better but still bad. Every kind of corporal punishment will cause some form of resentment and the outcome could range from your child cutting relationships in the *best case* or patricide/matricide in the worst case.

Political Geography wrote:

Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory wrote:Still not justified, lol. "Parents know best"? Let's change "parent" to the "party", or "state", or "General Secretary" and you would be up in arms. Corporal punishment, for small children? Yeah right, using it for older children is better but still bad. Every kind of corporal punishment will cause some form of resentment and the outcome could range from your child cutting relationships in the *best case* or patricide/matricide in the worst case.

Not all parents know best. But a lot more do spank their kids, than the number who have their kids run away or (lol) kill them.

Let them spank, and the ones who shouldn't be parents at all will out themselves. It's harsh I know, but think about it. They're going to beat the kid sooner or later. Better sooner, and they lose the kid.

Congratulations, you have achieved strawman *Some people don't believe in discipline at all*, incomprehensible sentences *Better sooner, and they lose the kid.*, incorrect statements * They're going to beat the kid sooner or later.*, and advocating for violence *Let them spank*