NationStates

Geneviev wrote:

New haven america wrote:How do you perform corporal punishment with hurting the child when the very idea of corporal punishment is hurting the child?

It can't be too painful for the child. It shouldn't hurt much, but only show them that they're wrong in their actions.

Corporal punishment never "showed me" anything, except that the people who hit me were -- in my five year old perception -- not nice to hit me just for being silly and I should make fun of them more.

New haven america wrote:1. No no, there's research for 1 side, and propaganda/fallacies for the other side.
2. And yet you're ok with corporal punishment.

Corporal punishment should only be used to help children.

Help them... what? Learn "might makes right"? Learn they can't trust those they should trust the most? Learn that you don't need an explanation if you have a fist?

Corporal punishment is not a teaching tool (it actually impairs moral internalisation), it's a tool to get immediate and temporary obedience without needing to say why. It's a lazy way to get your child to comply.

Wtf my country outlawed child corporal punishment in 2014

The Free Joy State wrote:

Geneviev wrote:There's research for both sides.

No, one side has actual research. The other has subjective opinion disguised as research (and not well, as no-one wants to publish it)

I would never want to harm children, but sometimes those things are necessary.

You keep saying that, but it's just a by-rote chant at this point.

You are yet to provide research establishing that removing privileges and other methods don't work.

It depends on the child. Some of them don't care about those things.

Disgraces wrote:Wtf my country outlawed child corporal punishment in 2014

Sounds like they where smart

Disgraces wrote:I was hit as a kid many times and thank God I was.

And now I want to hit you for this erroneous so-called "opinion"

Geneviev wrote:

The Free Joy State wrote:No, one side has actual research. The other has subjective opinion disguised as research (and not well, as no-one wants to publish it)


You keep saying that, but it's just a by-rote chant at this point.

You are yet to provide research establishing that removing privileges and other methods don't work.

It depends on the child. Some of them don't care about those things.

Ya no. Nearly all children care about having things taken from them

Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory wrote:

Disgraces wrote:I was hit as a kid many times and thank God I was.

And now I want to hit you for this erroneous so-called "opinion"

How is it wrong?

Disgraces wrote:

Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory wrote:And now I want to hit you for this erroneous so-called "opinion"

How is it wrong?

Research shows that spanking reduces IQ among other things.

Thermodolia wrote:

Disgraces wrote:Wtf my country outlawed child corporal punishment in 2014

Sounds like they were dumb

FTFY

Thermodolia wrote:

Geneviev wrote:It depends on the child. Some of them don't care about those things.

Ya no. Nearly all children care about having things taken from them

Let's do a more child-friendly version of forced labor instead, which would be additional chores.

New haven america wrote:

The Emerald Legion wrote:
Having experienced both, there is a stark, night and day difference between the two.

Also having experience both? Nope, no discernable difference in most cases.

Then you haven't experienced both.

Geneviev wrote:

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:Do you have anything that's not agitation propaganda written by clearly Christian opinionators?

It's a psychologist writing on Time. It's not propaganda.

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
How is it punishment if it doesn't hurt?

It shouldn't be too extreme. If the intent is anything other than teaching, it can become abuse by inflicting too much pain.

"Teaching" the kid that certain undesirable behaviors lead to pain. But how does that work if it's only mild pain? Isn't it quite likely that hitting their sister (for example) is so gratifying for the child that some mild pain as part of the deal, doesn't stop them?

It is inescapable to me that a mild pain coming from a person they love and trust is far more significant than a greater pain from stubbing their toe. It's deliberate and directed at them, this makes it more significant to them.

Spanking is like the opposite of the love and care the child has come to expect. It's a little taste of "I hate you" and no wonder it is "effective".

Geneviev wrote:

The Free Joy State wrote:No, one side has actual research. The other has subjective opinion disguised as research (and not well, as no-one wants to publish it)


You keep saying that, but it's just a by-rote chant at this point.

You are yet to provide research establishing that removing privileges and other methods don't work.

It depends on the child. Some of them don't care about those things.

Then find something that the child does care for.

Honestly, we have disproved the efficacy of corporal punishment, several times over. You can't keep rebuffing the efficacy of other methods, claiming "only corporal punishment" without providing objective evidence as to the professed inefficacy of non-violent discipline at some point.

Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory wrote:

Disgraces wrote:How is it wrong?

Research shows that spanking reduces IQ among other things.

Not to brag, but I'm pretty smart.

Thermodolia wrote:

Geneviev wrote:It's a psychologist writing on Time. It's not propaganda.


It shouldn't be too extreme. If the intent is anything other than teaching, it can become abuse by inflicting too much pain.

Why does this sound oddly familiar? Ya know it kinda sounds like that guy who said that it was ok to abuse your wife but gently as if that changed anything

There is actually a difference between me and Amin.

The Free Joy State wrote:

Geneviev wrote:It can't be too painful for the child. It shouldn't hurt much, but only show them that they're wrong in their actions.

Corporal punishment never "showed me" anything, except that the people who hit me were -- in my five year old perception -- not nice to hit me just for being silly and I should make fun of them more.

Corporal punishment should only be used to help children.

Help them... what? Learn "might makes right"? Learn they can't trust those they should trust the most? Learn that you don't need an explanation if you have a fist?

Corporal punishment is not a teaching tool (it actually impairs moral internalisation), it's a tool to get immediate and temporary obedience without needing to say why. It's a lazy way to get your child to comply.

Help them be better people. You should tell the child why you're doing it and discuss it with them so they can learn. If it's lazy, then it's being done wrong.

Off topic but why tf are you anti Beethoven, Geneviev?

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:

Geneviev wrote:It's a psychologist writing on Time. It's not propaganda.


It shouldn't be too extreme. If the intent is anything other than teaching, it can become abuse by inflicting too much pain.

"Teaching" the kid that certain undesirable behaviors lead to pain. But how does that work if it's only mild pain? Isn't it quite likely that hitting their sister (for example) is so gratifying for the child that some mild pain as part of the deal, doesn't stop them?

It is inescapable to me that a mild pain coming from a person they love and trust is far more significant than a greater pain from stubbing their toe. It's deliberate and directed at them, this makes it more significant to them.

Spanking is like the opposite of the love and care the child has come to expect. It's a little taste of "I hate you" and no wonder it is "effective".

They should know that it is coming from love. It's not meant to harm a child at all, and so they need to understand why it's done and have the opportunity to talk about it. So it shouldn't be the opposite of love and care.

Disgraces wrote:

Thermodolia wrote:Sounds like they were dumb

FTFY

lmfao imagine thinking outlawing child abuse was a dumb thing to do

The Free Joy State wrote:

Geneviev wrote:It depends on the child. Some of them don't care about those things.

Then find something that the child does care for.

Honestly, we have disproved the efficacy of corporal punishment, several times over. You can't keep rebuffing the efficacy of other methods, claiming "only corporal punishment" without providing objective evidence as to the professed inefficacy of non-violent discipline at some point.

It is only in very specific circumstances. Nonviolent discipline almost always works, but there are a few exceptions.

Disgraces wrote:

Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory wrote:Research shows that spanking reduces IQ among other things.

Not to brag, but I'm pretty smart.

People who boast about their IQ are fucking losers. Yes this is a quote from Stephen Hawking, I just added "fucking"

The Free Joy State wrote:

Geneviev wrote:It can't be too painful for the child. It shouldn't hurt much, but only show them that they're wrong in their actions.

Corporal punishment never "showed me" anything, except that the people who hit me were -- in my five year old perception -- not nice to hit me just for being silly and I should make fun of them more.

Corporal punishment should only be used to help children.

Help them... what? Learn "might makes right"? Learn they can't trust those they should trust the most? Learn that you don't need an explanation if you have a fist?

Corporal punishment is not a teaching tool (it actually impairs moral internalisation), it's a tool to get immediate and temporary obedience without needing to say why. It's a lazy way to get your child to comply.

This is dumb. Corporal punishment alone doesn't teach anything. That's not it's purpose. It's part of the lesson but not the whole thing. It has its place. If you leave the lesson at just hitting them with no explanation or an arbitrary one, of course it's not going to work.

One word

Neither,so EGG

Necroghastia wrote:

Disgraces wrote:FTFY

lmfao imagine thinking outlawing child abuse was a dumb thing to do

How is a fucking slap abuse?

Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory wrote:

Disgraces wrote:Not to brag, but I'm pretty smart.

People who boast about their IQ are fucking losers. Yes this is a quote from Stephen Hawking, I just added "fucking"

I know. That's why I said "not to brag". I only said it because apparently getting slapped makes you dumber, which isn't my case.

Also I never said anything about my IQ.

Geneviev wrote:

Thermodolia wrote:Why does this sound oddly familiar? Ya know it kinda sounds like that guy who said that it was ok to abuse your wife but gently as if that changed anything

There is actually a difference between me and Amin.

Yes, you propose beating a small vulnerable human being who trusts you and call that love.

The Free Joy State wrote:Corporal punishment never "showed me" anything, except that the people who hit me were -- in my five year old perception -- not nice to hit me just for being silly and I should make fun of them more.


Help them... what? Learn "might makes right"? Learn they can't trust those they should trust the most? Learn that you don't need an explanation if you have a fist?

Corporal punishment is not a teaching tool (it actually impairs moral internalisation), it's a tool to get immediate and temporary obedience without needing to say why. It's a lazy way to get your child to comply.

Help them be better people. You should tell the child why you're doing it and discuss it with them so they can learn. If it's lazy, then it's being done wrong.

Corporal punishment does not make children "better", and it actively inhibits learning (except how to hide their mistakes from you).

It is also an inherently lazy punishment. Rather than working to think of a personal punishment that would mean something to that child in the particular situation they're in and help them learn a genuine lesson and actually become a better person (write an apology to the person they insulted, fix something they broke, removing their gaming machine until they're caught up with their homework), just beat 'em.

Of course, they could suffer terrible effects down the line (in increased aggression, reduced mental wellbeing, and may abuse their spouse and children), but the parent gets to feel real good about "punishing them".