The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

[Proctopeo]

I think helicopter parenting has had a major impact on the incel rates in America. People shield their kids so much, they never learn social skills or have real human interactions.

I don't think there's any one-size-fits-all origin. However, I'd say that very few became "incels" on purpose.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

I think helicopter parenting has had a major impact on the incel rates in America. People shield their kids so much, they never learn social skills or have real human interactions.

I don't think there's any one-size-fits-all origin. However, I'd say that very few became "incels" on purpose.

Yeah nah, that's the whole idea of incels anyways. It's involuntary.

[North Sonovia]

Virginity certificates perpetuate harmful and misguided ideas, so it's understandable that the French state would ban them for the good of society.

Oh, and how does it “perpetuate harmful and misguided ideas” when there is mutual consent?

Oh, and how does it “perpetuate harmful and misguided ideas” when there is mutual consent?

Because, even if there was mutual consent, that doesn't erase the underlying bigotry and pseudoscience: that women who have had sex are less “pure” or deserving of marriage, and that a test can confirm that a woman has never had sex (it can't). From what articles have said about the issue, women who ask for these tests comes from violently patriarchal families, and aren't enthusiastically signing up for them.

Gynaecologist Dr Ghada Hatem told France Inter news that "in France this doesn't affect thousands of women - I am asked by about three women maximum [for certificates] each year". Often it is girls from the Maghreb - Muslim-majority north-west Africa - who ask for them, she said.

She told France 3 TV that she provided such certificates for women and girls who feared physical violence from relatives or family dishonour.

"If they say 'my brother will beat me up, my dad will strangle me, my in-laws will ruin my family's reputation' I have no reason to disbelieve them."

Libleftist vs libleftist

Smh the division is sickening.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Oh, and how does it “perpetuate harmful and misguided ideas” when there is mutual consent?

Because, even if there was mutual consent, that doesn't erase the underlying bigotry and pseudoscience: that women who have had sex are less “pure” or deserving of marriage, and that a test can confirm that a woman has never had sex (it can't). From what articles have said about the issue, women who ask for these tests comes from violently patriarchal families, and aren't enthusiastically signing up for them.

Libleftist vs libleftist

Smh the division is sickening.

NWR isn't libertarian or leftist. He is a self described centrist and okay with authoritarianism if it benefits him in some vague way.

[North Sonovia]

Libleftist vs libleftist

Smh the division is sickening.

NWR isn't libertarian or leftist. He is a self described centrist and okay with authoritarianism if it benefits him in some vague way.

But... why does he have, "center-left American Patriot that came to this website for civil discourse" in his sig?

idk man, seems pretty sus leftist to me

[Borderlands of Rojava]

NWR isn't libertarian or leftist. He is a self described centrist and okay with authoritarianism if it benefits him in some vague way.

But... why does he have, "center-left American Patriot that came to this website for civil discourse" in his sig?

idk man, seems pretty sus leftist to me

Actions speak louder than words.

[Proctopeo]

Though with that post, I do want to point out the focus on the negative impact on women. Men ain't free from that shit either; society often considers men "lesser" (ie. "less of a man") for being virgins... and that societal attitude is significant force behind incels, bringing the argument full circle.

Either that, or people accuse men of being gay. Whether or not that's intended as derogatory or not depends on context.

[Saiwania]

Jesus christ does the manosphere just keep getting worse? I just watched a video of some loser talking about "don't date women over 30, they past their prime. Date 18 year olds instead."

You are 50 years old. If you're trying to go for 18 year olds, it's sus as hell and sets off alarm bells in people's heads.

All that matters is if they're both adults legally speaking. If he's indeed 50, he can perhaps afford to date a 30 something year old woman if he's rich/attractive enough. He could go all the way down to 18 to 20s range if he can pull it off. Its just that it probably won't be pulled off unless the lady is a "gold digger or sugar" type, because its a simple matter of a younger lady just not having enough in common with a middle or senior aged man socially speaking.

He's not wrong to want to not date women past 40 or so, if he wants to have biological children. But other than that, its a bit narrow minded to dismiss women past 30, in that's its no hard rule that such women have to be unattractive or be whatever other concern guys may have.

[Albrenia]

I don't think there's any one-size-fits-all origin. However, I'd say that very few became "incels" on purpose.

Yeah nah, that's the whole idea of incels anyways. It's involuntary.

In theory, yeah. In practise it seems that most 'incels' are incredibly voluntary in their own isolation.

[The Rich Port]

Yeah nah, that's the whole idea of incels anyways. It's involuntary.

In theory, yeah. In practise it seems that most 'incels' are incredibly voluntary in their own isolation.

Well it don't help "inceldom" is a contradictory hypocritical incoherent viewpoint anyway so yeah trying to suss any logic out of it is a pointless endeavor, same as many "alternative" viewpoints.

Indeed, IMO many "incels" just want to be miserable and make other people miserable.

[Proctopeo]

Yeah nah, that's the whole idea of incels anyways. It's involuntary.

In theory, yeah. In practise it seems that most 'incels' are incredibly voluntary in their own isolation.

I wouldn't be confident. There's not really been much investigation into the "process" by people who don't already hate them; that is to say, we don't have much usable information about it.

From my personal understanding, though, the social ostracization comes first, then they join one of the insular communities, in most cases at least.

[Saiwania]

Like what the hell are you as a 50 year old man gonna talk with an 18 year old about at Olive Garden, college? We know damn well you never even saw that place let alone attended if you're such a loser and disgrace you're hitting on 18 year olds as a middle aged man. I could understand maybe a 50 year old dating a 30 year old but honestly I think anyone under 25 is too young for a man that old. And 18-19 is just straight up creepy. I'm sure as I get older the youngest age I feel anything for is gonna move up, unlike this self described alpha male.

Perhaps this is easy for you to say and you're judgemental, but what is someone going to do if for example- their entire youth got wasted by some external circumstances like being imprisoned for the entire duration or for when someone simply got no fulfilling experiences to fall back on when they were still young but aren't anymore?

Why shouldn't people just date who they want to within reason? A relationship being socially disapproved of is sufficient stigma in my mind. If two adults do wind up making it work anyways, good on them. She doesn't need to date someone who's "too old" but if she is, that's half on her if they don't break things off. Lets not pretend that only he alone is ever at fault, assuming he's not forcing anyone.

[The Rich Port]

In theory, yeah. In practise it seems that most 'incels' are incredibly voluntary in their own isolation.

I wouldn't be confident. There's not really been much investigation into the "process" by people who don't already hate them; that is to say, we don't have much usable information about it.

From my personal understanding, though, the social ostracization comes first, then they join one of the insular communities, in most cases at least.

It doesn't help most incels hate themselves too apparently.

[Proctopeo]

I wouldn't be confident. There's not really been much investigation into the "process" by people who don't already hate them; that is to say, we don't have much usable information about it.

From my personal understanding, though, the social ostracization comes first, then they join one of the insular communities, in most cases at least.

It doesn't help most incels hate themselves too apparently.

I suspect that this self-hate is at least partially the fault of society. After all, wouldn't you start hating yourself if people kept insisting that you weren't who you were? A whole lot of people would, even if not everyone would.

[Galloism]

I wouldn't be confident. There's not really been much investigation into the "process" by people who don't already hate them; that is to say, we don't have much usable information about it.

From my personal understanding, though, the social ostracization comes first, then they join one of the insular communities, in most cases at least.

It doesn't help most incels hate themselves too apparently.

I suspect there's both a fair amount of mental illness and presence on the autism spectrum in the incel community.

Many seem to lack the ability to pick up on social cues and things of that nature, which leads me to believe this. Add into that the social ostracism and lack-of-partner shaming (where they're literally blamed for the results of their mental illness), and it likely creates this insular hate-filled screed that, not really unexpectedly, then makes the shaming and social ostracism worse because now they proved that the people ostracizing them were right all along.

[The Rich Port]

It doesn't help most incels hate themselves too apparently.

I suspect that this self-hate is at least partially the fault of society. After all, wouldn't you start hating yourself if people kept insisting that you weren't who you were? A whole lot of people would, even if not everyone would.

People are accusing incels of not being incels? What do you mean that society is saying incels aren't who they say they are?

You're not wrong about society being the cause though. Patriarchal, corporate fascism has kinda devalued people to the point where the only value you have is how profitable you are and how much money you make and how much you are liked to be promoted.

[Proctopeo]

I suspect that this self-hate is at least partially the fault of society. After all, wouldn't you start hating yourself if people kept insisting that you weren't who you were? A whole lot of people would, even if not everyone would.

People are accusing incels of not being incels? What do you mean that society is saying incels aren't who they say they are?

No, that they're not "real" or "full" men because they're virgins, and that this is a possible catalyst for the downward spiral.

You're not wrong about society being the cause though. Patriarchal, corporate fascism has kinda devalued people to the point where the only value you have is how profitable you are and how much money you make and how much you are liked to be promoted.

We do live in a society.

[Saiwania]

No, that they're not "real" or "full" men because they're virgins, and that this is a possible catalyst for the downward spiral.

If an Incel traveled to a place where Prostitution is legal, and they paid and had sex and came back home- are they changed in any meaningful sense if they're as socially incompetent as they were before, just because they're not a virgin anymore?

[Proctopeo]

No, that they're not "real" or "full" men because they're virgins, and that this is a possible catalyst for the downward spiral.

If an Incel traveled to a place where Prostitution is legal, and they paid and had sex and came back home- are they changed in any meaningful sense if they're as socially incompetent as they were before, just because they're not a virgin anymore?

Well, if they're already an incel, nobody would be there to listen. But if they were in some stage prior, society's tune very well may change, even if they're still socially incompetent.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

If an Incel traveled to a place where Prostitution is legal, and they paid and had sex and came back home- are they changed in any meaningful sense if they're as socially incompetent as they were before, just because they're not a virgin anymore?

Well, if they're already an incel, nobody would be there to listen. But if they were in some stage prior, society's tune very well may change, even if they're still socially incompetent.

I hate how our society has spiraled so far down hill that men brag about having sex with the most disgusting and desperate of women. I lived with a guy named Tez back in 2019 who bragged one night while we were in the car about doing it with a girl who "smelled weird" and she wasn't exactly a beauty queen. I said "boy you're disgusting." I later found out he was way more disgusting than that when police came up in the trailer and woke all of our asses up and then took this guy away for having sex with 13 year olds.

Guys you aren't winning by doing it with a girl who doesn't even bathe or brush her teeth. You're just gross, and honestly no one in their right mind is keeping score of how much you had sex.

[New haven america]

No, that they're not "real" or "full" men because they're virgins, and that this is a possible catalyst for the downward spiral.

If an Incel traveled to a place where Prostitution is legal, and they paid and had sex and came back home- are they changed in any meaningful sense if they're as socially incompetent as they were before, just because they're not a virgin anymore?

Incels are against prositution, actually.

They view it as a microcosm of the issues present within hetero relationships, as well as the fact that they don't want "Used Goods."

[The Black Forrest]

If an Incel traveled to a place where Prostitution is legal, and they paid and had sex and came back home- are they changed in any meaningful sense if they're as socially incompetent as they were before, just because they're not a virgin anymore?

Incels are against prositution, actually.

They view it as a microcosm of the issues present within hetero relationships, as well as the fact that they don't want "Used Goods."

Oh they want virgins? I understand. The “used goods” would understand how bad they are.

[New haven america]

Incels are against prositution, actually.

They view it as a microcosm of the issues present within hetero relationships, as well as the fact that they don't want "Used Goods."

Oh they want virgins? I understand. The “used goods” would understand how bad they are.

Most want pure virginal women who will kiss their feet, cook for them, and tend to their every need while the Incel is preoccupied with their various hobbies.

Most incels don't view the average woman as worth their time or effort.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Oh they want virgins? I understand. The “used goods” would understand how bad they are.

Most want pure virginal women who will kiss their feet, cook for them, and tend to their every need while the Incel is preoccupied with their various hobbies.

Most incels don't view the average woman as worth their time or effort.

These men want women to fulfill traditional roles of cleaning the house but many of them (looking at you Chandler) don't wanna fulfill the role of working in a job.

[Saiwania]

Incels are against prositution, actually. They view it as a microcosm of the issues present within hetero relationships, as well as the fact that they don't want "Used Goods."

That is some but not all Incels that're out there. My larger point is that even if an Incel got the sex they wanted, chances are the experience isn't going to truly make them a "changed" person. They'll perhaps have the same bad habits or personality flaws. Asides from boosting confidence at best, it can't magically make them more competent at social situations. As such, they'll still be an "incel" if they find that they still want relationships but for one reason or another, it still eludes them.