The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

[North Washington Republic]

Eh, this seems like the government getting too much involved with the bedroom. If an adult wishes to have a certificate proving their virginity, then I don’t think that the government should get involved.

Virginity certificates perpetuate harmful and misguided ideas, so it's understandable that the French state would ban them for the good of society.

Oh, and how does it “perpetuate harmful and misguided ideas” when there is mutual consent?

[Suriyanakhon]

Virginity certificates perpetuate harmful and misguided ideas, so it's understandable that the French state would ban them for the good of society.

Oh, and how does it “perpetuate harmful and misguided ideas” when there is mutual consent?

Because, even if there was mutual consent, that doesn't erase the underlying bigotry and pseudoscience: that women who have had sex are less “pure” or deserving of marriage, and that a test can confirm that a woman has never had sex (it can't). From what articles have said about the issue, women who ask for these tests comes from violently patriarchal families, and aren't enthusiastically signing up for them.

Gynaecologist Dr Ghada Hatem told France Inter news that "in France this doesn't affect thousands of women - I am asked by about three women maximum [for certificates] each year". Often it is girls from the Maghreb - Muslim-majority north-west Africa - who ask for them, she said.

She told France 3 TV that she provided such certificates for women and girls who feared physical violence from relatives or family dishonour.

"If they say 'my brother will beat me up, my dad will strangle me, my in-laws will ruin my family's reputation' I have no reason to disbelieve them."

[Stellar Colonies]

Virginity certificates perpetuate harmful and misguided ideas, so it's understandable that the French state would ban them for the good of society.

Oh, and how does it “perpetuate harmful and misguided ideas” when there is mutual consent?

There are some harmful misandric/misogynist stereotypes about how virgin men and extensively sexually active women are not living up to what they should be, although what France is doing would need to be selective.

[Fahran]

There are some harmful misandric/misogynist stereotypes about how virgin men and extensively sexually active women are not living up to what they should be, although what France is doing would need to be selective.

Not to mention virginity tests aren't rooted in empirical evidence or fact at all. Essentially, women, usually from religiously fundamentalist Maghrebi families, are asking gynecologists to give them a rubber stamp so they aren't subject to social ostracization, physical abuse, or honor killings. This does present the problem that the sort of people inclined to force their fiancees, wives, daughters, or sisters to get virginity tests may resort to black market options where the people performing the "test" are less ethical and less well-educated.

Really, the world would be a nicer place if people with these sorts of misogynistic attitudes simply didn't exist.

[North Washington Republic]

There are some harmful misandric/misogynist stereotypes about how virgin men and extensively sexually active women are not living up to what they should be, although what France is doing would need to be selective.

Not to mention virginity tests aren't rooted in empirical evidence or fact at all. Essentially, women, usually from religiously fundamentalist Maghrebi families, are asking gynecologists to give them a rubber stamp so they aren't subject to social ostracization, physical abuse, or honor killings. This does present the problem that the sort of people inclined to force their fiancees, wives, daughters, or sisters to get virginity tests may resort to black market options where the people performing the "test" are less ethical and less well-educated.

Really, the world would be a nicer place if people with these sorts of misogynistic attitudes simply didn't exist.

Oh, and how does it “perpetuate harmful and misguided ideas” when there is mutual consent?

There are some harmful misandric/misogynist stereotypes about how virgin men and extensively sexually active women are not living up to what they should be, although what France is doing would need to be selective.

Oh, and how does it “perpetuate harmful and misguided ideas” when there is mutual consent?

Because, even if there was mutual consent, that doesn't erase the underlying bigotry and pseudoscience: that women who have had sex are less “pure” or deserving of marriage, and that a test can confirm that a woman has never had sex (it can't). From what articles have said about the issue, women who ask for these tests comes from violently patriarchal families, and aren't enthusiastically signing up for them.

Gynaecologist Dr Ghada Hatem told France Inter news that "in France this doesn't affect thousands of women - I am asked by about three women maximum [for certificates] each year". Often it is girls from the Maghreb - Muslim-majority north-west Africa - who ask for them, she said.

She told France 3 TV that she provided such certificates for women and girls who feared physical violence from relatives or family dishonour.

"If they say 'my brother will beat me up, my dad will strangle me, my in-laws will ruin my family's reputation' I have no reason to disbelieve them."

I wish to make my postion clear. I I absolutely believe that the idea of virginity certificate is an antiquated idea and rooted in misogynistic beliefs regarding sexuality. The examples given, that women from fundamentalist religions being compound or forced into any invasive procedure is not mutual consent. The example I’m thinking of is where mutual consent is clearly given.

[Fahran]

The example I’m thinking of is where mutual consent is clearly given.

We have a good number of reasons to conclude that informed consent is next to impossible to grant for an invasive procedure that serves no genuine purpose. I simply don't think it's possible when the social conventions of the sorts of communities where these tests are in demand are such that refusing to get one leads to social ostracization, physical abuse, or death. That's kinda the same problem we encounter with the niqab and burqa, though I think the virginity test is more ridiculous and harmful in almost every respect.

Oddly enough, this isn't just a fundamentalist Muslim practice either. I've heard some pretty lurid tales about fundamentalist Christians and Jews doing the same thing. Really, I have no problem suppressing the practice altogether if we can do that without it going underground. Otherwise, let gynecologists lie to the sorts of morons who believe looking at the hymen matters so that women and girls aren't hurt.

[Kowani]

NYC Mayor Bill de Blasio (D) moves to decriminalize sex work

Queens District Attorney Melinda Katz moved on Tuesday to dismiss nearly 700 cases against people charged with loitering for the purpose of prostitution.

The move came the same day Mayor Bill de Blasio sought to decriminalize sex work. The loitering for the purpose of prostitution law was repealed last month out of concern it too often targeted women, trans people and people of color based solely on their appearance.

"Historical data shows that enforcement of this statute had primarily been used to arrest people based on their gender or appearance," Katz said. "Dismissing cases related to this unfair and now repealed statute frees members of our community from the collateral consequences of their arrests."

The request came as prosecutors across the country are rethinking their views of prostitution. It is no longer viewed entirely as a crime but often as a consequence of sex trafficking.

This reform is part of the larger New York City Police Reform and Reinvention Collaborative draft plan.

Officials say through the initiative, the city will develop new strategies to combat trafficking while working to eliminate arrests for selling sex.

Under the proposed reform, the city will create a state legislative frameworks for decriminalizing sex work and supporting people who are victimized by trafficking.

To expand services for sex workers, the city will explore pre-arrest program models to offer community-centered services to sex workers without conducting arrest as a condition of receipt, as opposed to post-arrest diversion which relies on offering services as a condition of release from arrest or incarceration.

The city says it will also explore and refine proposals related to sex work programs and services, especially sex worker led health, employment and safety programs.

Supportive community-based services for sex workers will be expanded, including creating new partnerships outside of law enforcement by formalizing the Task Force on Health and Safety Needs of Sex workers led by the NYC Unity Project and Mayor's Office to End Domestic and Gender Based Violence (ENDGBV).

The NYPD will also review policies and procedures for identifying and investigating human trafficking to develop alternative methods that focus on arresting traffickers without further criminalizing and harming those directly involved in the sex trade and to address the racialized enforcement of sex work.

While arrests are driven by complaints, the vast majority of individuals arrested for prostitution-related charges continue to be Black and Hispanic. Officials say they will collaborate with other agencies to maximize their ability to arrest and prosecute traffickers and violent offenders without collateral trauma to people engaged in consensual sex work or who are victims of exploitation.

[Stellar Colonies]

NYC Mayor Bill de Blasio (D) moves to decriminalize sex work

Queens District Attorney Melinda Katz moved on Tuesday to dismiss nearly 700 cases against people charged with loitering for the purpose of prostitution.

The move came the same day Mayor Bill de Blasio sought to decriminalize sex work. The loitering for the purpose of prostitution law was repealed last month out of concern it too often targeted women, trans people and people of color based solely on their appearance.

"Historical data shows that enforcement of this statute had primarily been used to arrest people based on their gender or appearance," Katz said. "Dismissing cases related to this unfair and now repealed statute frees members of our community from the collateral consequences of their arrests."

The request came as prosecutors across the country are rethinking their views of prostitution. It is no longer viewed entirely as a crime but often as a consequence of sex trafficking.

This reform is part of the larger New York City Police Reform and Reinvention Collaborative draft plan.

Officials say through the initiative, the city will develop new strategies to combat trafficking while working to eliminate arrests for selling sex.

Under the proposed reform, the city will create a state legislative frameworks for decriminalizing sex work and supporting people who are victimized by trafficking.

To expand services for sex workers, the city will explore pre-arrest program models to offer community-centered services to sex workers without conducting arrest as a condition of receipt, as opposed to post-arrest diversion which relies on offering services as a condition of release from arrest or incarceration.

The city says it will also explore and refine proposals related to sex work programs and services, especially sex worker led health, employment and safety programs.

Supportive community-based services for sex workers will be expanded, including creating new partnerships outside of law enforcement by formalizing the Task Force on Health and Safety Needs of Sex workers led by the NYC Unity Project and Mayor's Office to End Domestic and Gender Based Violence (ENDGBV).

The NYPD will also review policies and procedures for identifying and investigating human trafficking to develop alternative methods that focus on arresting traffickers without further criminalizing and harming those directly involved in the sex trade and to address the racialized enforcement of sex work.

While arrests are driven by complaints, the vast majority of individuals arrested for prostitution-related charges continue to be Black and Hispanic. Officials say they will collaborate with other agencies to maximize their ability to arrest and prosecute traffickers and violent offenders without collateral trauma to people engaged in consensual sex work or who are victims of exploitation.

Here's an example of my preferences clashing with reality.

I personally dislike sex work, but carefully* decriminalizing it while keeping channels open for someone to exit or avoid the industry and the human trafficking often entangled with it if s/he doesn't want to be involved with it seems like it would result in better results than a blanket ban.

*How New York is doing this may or may not be ideal.

-snip-

I’m supportive and tentatively hopeful. We shall see how things go.

Same, generally.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

-snip-

I’m supportive and tentatively hopeful. We shall see how things go.

[Nevertopia]

The example I’m thinking of is where mutual consent is clearly given.

We have a good number of reasons to conclude that informed consent is next to impossible to grant for an invasive procedure that serves no genuine purpose. I simply don't think it's possible when the social conventions of the sorts of communities where these tests are in demand are such that refusing to get one leads to social ostracization, physical abuse, or death. That's kinda the same problem we encounter with the niqab and burqa, though I think the virginity test is more ridiculous and harmful in almost every respect.

Oddly enough, this isn't just a fundamentalist Muslim practice either. I've heard some pretty lurid tales about fundamentalist Christians and Jews doing the same thing. Really, I have no problem suppressing the practice altogether if we can do that without it going underground. Otherwise, let gynecologists lie to the sorts of morons who believe looking at the hymen matters so that women and girls aren't hurt.

imagine the outrage if the roles were reversed and men had to have their prostates checked to confirm that their dicks worked. Sure you can mutually consent to the procedure but it has as much purpose as having women have their virginity checked.

[Alcala-Cordel]

If an adult wishes to have a certificate proving their virginity, then I don’t think that the government should get involved.

So an active Reddit account?

Jokes aside, I agree with you. For what reason does the government need to be involved in this?

Wait, wait, I don't agree with you. I thought you were talking about how the government shouldn't be making the certificates. No, "virginity certificates" should NOT be at thing.

[Saiwania]

The issue isn't with the virginity tests existing, its that generally speaking- it doesn't work.

Physically speaking, I see little to no meaningful differences between some woman who's had sex just one time but never again for years to a decade or longer, and another woman who genuinely never known a man in such a manner. For men, people don't even bother because there really is no way to tell.

Hence, why it is a sexist play against women more often than not.

[Fahran]

-snip-

I’m supportive and tentatively hopeful. We shall see how things go.

I'm not at all hopeful given that legalized sex work remains problematic when it comes to both human trafficking and consent on a pretty routine basis and that novel measures to regulate the legal sex industry have met with intense pushback in the past. I think this is ultimately going to wind up serving pimps and madames more so than sex workers without some acknowledgement that the sex industry, as it presently exists, thrives on patriarchal and abusive gender relations the majority of the time - in part because of the demand that drives it and in part because of who holds the economic power in these situations. There are exceptions, largely when it comes to OnlyFans and similar social media platform that enable sex workers to work on their own terms and, when successful, to earn hundreds of thousands of dollars annually. Even in these cases though, I think the demand tends to contribute towards demeaning people.

[Odreria]

NYC Mayor Bill de Blasio (D) moves to decriminalize sex work

NSG poster Odreria moves to criminalize Bill de Blasio

[Kowani]

I’m supportive and tentatively hopeful. We shall see how things go.

I'm not at all hopeful given that legalized sex work remains problematic when it comes to both human trafficking and consent on a pretty routine basis and that novel measures to regulate the legal sex industry have met with intense pushback in the past. I think this is ultimately going to wind up serving pimps and madames more so than sex workers without some acknowledgement that the sex industry, as it presently exists, thrives on patriarchal and abusive gender relations the majority of the time - in part because of the demand that drives it and in part because of who holds the economic power in these situations. There are exceptions, largely when it comes to OnlyFans and similar social media platform that enable sex workers to work on their own terms and, when successful, to earn hundreds of thousands of dollars annually. Even in these cases though, I think the demand tends to contribute towards demeaning people.

baltimore should provide a good case study for this going forward, i think, since unlike NYC, they've actually taken the steps to stop prosecuting prostitution

[Fahran]

imagine the outrage if the roles were reversed and men had to have their prostates checked to confirm that their dicks worked. Sure you can mutually consent to the procedure but it has as much purpose as having women have their virginity checked.

Well, we also have to account for the hypothetical assumption within an insular community that a man would only refuse such an examination to hide erectile dysfunction and any suggestion that a man had erectile dysfunction would dishonor him, result in him being ostracized from his family and his community, and make him fair game for mockery, physical violence, or honor killing. That pretty much nullifies any consent a person could meaningfully give because you have the choice between taking an exam that doesn't prove anything from an empirical standpoint or dealing with extremely negative social consequences for refusing. It's absolutely that level of stupid.

[Fahran]

baltimore should provide a good case study for this going forward, i think, since unlike NYC, they've actually taken the steps to stop prosecuting prostitution

True. Baltimore is a hub of human trafficking at the moment. Not the largest hub, mind you, but a hub nonetheless. Given the overlap between the legal and illegal sex industries, it's often exceedingly difficult to help victims of human trafficking after-the-fact, especially when those folks have few reasons to talk to the police, often encounter language barriers, often struggle with addiction and other mental health issues, and can expect retaliation from the people trafficking them if they reach out for help. Arguably, the best way to clamp down on trafficking seems to be educating vulnerable people, especially homeless children (many of them LGBT+) and immigrants, about how it occurs. Addressing homelessness and the vulnerability of immigrants could probably help a lot too.

Source
Source

[Fahran]

The issue isn't with the virginity tests existing, its that generally speaking- it doesn't work.

Physically speaking, I see little to no meaningful differences between some woman who's had sex just one time but never again for years to a decade or longer, and another woman who genuinely never known a man in such a manner. For men, people don't even bother because there really is no way to tell.

There's no way to tell with women and girls either because virginity isn't a physical characteristic. It's a sociological characteristic defined by the absence of a particular experience.

[Kowani]

baltimore should provide a good case study for this going forward, i think, since unlike NYC, they've actually taken the steps to stop prosecuting prostitution

True. Baltimore is a hub of human trafficking at the moment. Not the largest hub, mind you, but a hub nonetheless. Given the overlap between the legal and illegal sex industries, it's often exceedingly difficult to help victims of human trafficking after-the-fact, especially when those folks have few reasons to talk to the police, often encounter language barriers, often struggle with addiction and other mental health issues, and can expect retaliation from the people trafficking them if they reach out for help. Arguably, the best way to clamp down on trafficking seems to be educating vulnerable people, especially homeless children (many of them LGBT+) and immigrants, about how it occurs. Addressing homelessness and the vulnerability of immigrants could probably help a lot too.

Source
Source

(noting i can't read the sun's article because of a paywall)
i don't deny that baltimore has a human trafficking problem (though i was not aware of the severity, thank you, that's pretty bad)
but my point-and one you mentioned- is that the lack of reasons to talk to the police are a substantial obstacle for victims to get help
but because baltimore just decided not to prosecute drug possession or prostitution last month, that dynamic is slowly changing (though a lack of trust and other issues with the police will remain)
as for cracking down on trafficking, your solutions would, i think, help
there are things in the works for addressing homelessness (if the most recent infrastructure plan goes through, anyway, where i suspect the largest obstacle to be in the House), but the problem will remain regardless

[Saiwania]

There's no way to tell with women and girls either because virginity isn't a physical characteristic. It's a sociological characteristic defined by the absence of a particular experience.

At least with women, there is the myth that the hymen can tell anything about a woman's virginity. When really it just means that maybe a woman was never an athlete. There is even less of anything physical for men, so it tends to just be generic sexism towards women in practice.

[Stellar Colonies]

There's no way to tell with women and girls either because virginity isn't a physical characteristic. It's a sociological characteristic defined by the absence of a particular experience.

At least with women, there is the myth that the hymen can tell anything about a woman's virginity. When really it just means that maybe a woman was never an athlete. There is even less of anything physical for men, so it tends to just be generic sexism towards women in practice.

A corruption of gender roles to an absurd and pseudoscientific degree...which is not uncommon of them in general.

[Fahran]

At least with women, there is the myth that the hymen can tell anything about a woman's virginity. When really it just means that maybe a woman was never an athlete. There is even less of anything physical for men, so it tends to just be generic sexism towards women in practice.

You can't really tell anything based on whether the hymen is intact or torn. It's not too uncommon for a hymen NOT to tear during sex. So a woman could have her hymen while having lost her virginity. On the flip side, a woman could tear/break her hymen while doing something as simple as stretching a certain way or riding a horse. And that's not uncommon either. Not disagreeing with you here. Just adding a bit more to the argument.

[Kowani]

Utah law would require biological fathers to pay half of a woman’s out-of-pocket pregnancy costs

Biological fathers in Utah will be legally required to pay half of a woman’s out-of-pocket pregnancy costs under a new law unique to the state that critics say doesn’t do enough to adequately address maternal health care needs.

The bill’s sponsor has presented the measure as an effort to decrease the burden of pregnancy on women and increase responsibility for men who have children. But some critics argue the new legislation won’t help women who are most vulnerable and could make abusive situations even more dangerous for pregnant women.

Utah appears to be the first state to mandate prenatal child support, according to the state’s Planned Parenthood association and the bill’s sponsor. But a few states, including Wisconsin and New York, have provisions that can result in fathers being financially responsible for pre-birth expenses. Gov. Spencer Cox, a Republican, recently signed the proposal, which received widespread support in the GOP-controlled Legislature.

Republican Rep. Brady Brammer said he decided to sponsor the measure because he had grown frustrated with the number of anti-abortion measures going through the Legislature and wanted to pursue legislation that would make it easier to bring life into the world.

“We want to help people and actually be pro-life in how we do it as opposed to anti-abortion,” Brammer said. “One of the ways to help with that was to help the burden of pregnancy be decreased.”

The bill would apply to a pregnant woman’s health insurance premiums and any pregnancy-related medical costs, Brammer said.

If the paternity of the child is disputed, fathers won’t be required to pay until after paternity is established. The father also wouldn’t be financially responsible for the cost of an abortion received without his consent unless it’s necessary to prevent the death of the mother or if the pregnancy was the result of rape.

In Utah, mothers already have the option to seek support related to birth expenses through the courts but few do, said Liesa Stockdale, director of the state’s Office of Recovery Services, which typically collects child support. She said mothers will now have the option to also seek pregnancy-related payments through the legal system, but it’s unclear how often they will pursue it.

“I don’t know how often it will be used,” Stockdale said. “That’s yet to be seen how often parents will choose to pursue these costs. But certainly if they do, we’re here to collect.”
The bill is not intended to lower the frequency of abortions, but Brammer said that could be a potential result.

Anti-abortion activists have lauded the bill, however, saying it will protect the lives of unborn children by supporting women through their pregnancy. Merrilee Boyack, chairman of the Abortion-Free Utah coalition, said she hopes this bill will decrease abortions in the state by lessening economic pressures on new moms.

“Anything we can do to support women in these circumstances will help them be able to give birth to their babies, feel good about that choice and feel supported along the way,” Boyack said.

[Borderlands of Rojava]

Oh, and how does it “perpetuate harmful and misguided ideas” when there is mutual consent?

Because, even if there was mutual consent, that doesn't erase the underlying bigotry and pseudoscience: that women who have had sex are less “pure” or deserving of marriage, and that a test can confirm that a woman has never had sex (it can't). From what articles have said about the issue, women who ask for these tests comes from violently patriarchal families, and aren't enthusiastically signing up for them.

Gynaecologist Dr Ghada Hatem told France Inter news that "in France this doesn't affect thousands of women - I am asked by about three women maximum [for certificates] each year". Often it is girls from the Maghreb - Muslim-majority north-west Africa - who ask for them, she said.

She told France 3 TV that she provided such certificates for women and girls who feared physical violence from relatives or family dishonour.

"If they say 'my brother will beat me up, my dad will strangle me, my in-laws will ruin my family's reputation' I have no reason to disbelieve them."

In what kind of fucked up family does a brother or father beat a sister/daughter? What kind of vicious and disgraceful bullshit is this?

[Fahran]

In what kind of fucked up family does a brother or father beat a sister/daughter? What kind of vicious and disgraceful bullshit is this?

Keep in mind that it wasn't wholly unacceptable for husbands to "discipline" their wives in much of the West sixty or seventy years ago and that women in the US in particular couldn't open their own bank accounts without male permission half a century ago. It is absolutely unacceptable, disgraceful, and barbaric, but it's sadly not rare and not too foreign from us. Some people still think like this.