The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

[Ostroeuropa]

What do people think of this "Superstraight" thing?

It's a 4chan op and like lots of cishet people are super transphobic anyway, they never needed any other special labeling for that.

"4chan op" being used to dismiss it doesn't really fly.

https://clickhole.com/heartbreaking-the ... 825121606/

Why is it transphobic in your opinion?

[The Blaatschapen]

What do people think of this "Superstraight" thing?

What is it?

[Esalia]

What do people think of this "Superstraight" thing?

Mainly strikes me as a bunch of 4Chan trolling. Best not to feed the trolls.

[Ostroeuropa]

What do people think of this "Superstraight" thing?

What is it?

A movement of people saying they are attracted to cis people of the opposite sex and defining that as their sexuality while demanding people accept it or they are "Superphobes", made in response to claims by some in the trans activist community that its transphobic not to want to sleep with post-op transpeople who transition to the sex you would usually identify as being sexually attracted to. Spin offs include "superlesbian" and "supergay".

What do people think of this "Superstraight" thing?

Mainly strikes me as a bunch of 4Chan trolling. Best not to feed the trolls.

I think it's fairly dumb but appears to be aligning with a genuine issue some cis people report experiencing of facing abuse and so on for not finding transpeople attractive.

[Stellar Colonies]

For women’s day, Biden signs 2 Executive orders

The first executive order establishes a Gender Policy Council within the White House, reformulating an office from the Obama administration that was later disbanded by the Trump administration, and giving it more clout.

Under former President Barack Obama, the office was called the White House Council on Women and Girls. The name change to the Gender Policy Council is intentional, according to an administration official speaking on background, "to reflect the fact that gender discrimination can happen to people of all genders."Co-chairing the Gender Policy Council are Jennifer Klein, who has worked on women's issues going back to the Clinton administration, and Julissa Reynoso, who's first lady Jill Biden's chief of staff and who served under Hillary Clinton at the State Department.

The second executive order is directed at the Department of Education and seems expressly aimed at reversing a controversial rule on campus sexual assault and harassment that was issued last year by Donald Trump's education secretary, Betsy DeVos. Biden's executive order directs the Department of Education to review all existing regulations to "[guarantee] an educational environment free from discrimination on the basis of sex, including discrimination in the form of sexual harassment, which encompasses sexual violence, and including discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity."

The order directs the newly confirmed Secretary of Education — Miguel Cardona — to consider "suspending, revising, or rescinding" any agency actions that violate that policy.

So for the council, I would hope that this organization lives up to its name and works towards trying to solve issues facing both genders. The name change is a promising start, but a small one.

In a perfect world, this council would work hand in hand with moderate feminists and moderate MRAs, genuinely solving problems facing both genders (access to period products, paternity/maternity leave, changing definitions of sexual assault/rape to recognize the roughly equivalent number of male victims / trashing the Duluth Model in a highly disrespectful fashion as it deserves, etc.) via a good-faith partnership without tromping carelessly or maliciously upon the other gender. I've always wanted the good-faith moderates on both sides to join together in this fashion and kick out the misogynists and misandrists accordingly...

I don't have high hopes for this actually happening, but it would be so damn amazing if it did.

As for the Title IX alterations, I'll just bring this post back from the third American Politics thread:

I really hope a true, enduring balance is struck with Title IX in the end.

One which simultaneously allows male and female rape victims to get help and justice while also ensuring innocent men and women are not dragged through the mud for something they did not do.

[FNU]

What do people think of this "Superstraight" thing?

Amusing, very amusing. I don't agree with its ideas, but I do enjoy how it exemplifies people's tendency to have double standards. I think the best example is this. Let's say I was born in 1958, I share very different views than someone born in 2004. They may be supportive of certain lifestyles, I may not be. However, if I state my disliking of this lifestyle I am marked as a bigot, however, when they state their dislike of me they are in the clear of such scrutiny. Best comedy hour to ever come from the hellhole of Twitter.

[Stellar Colonies]

What is it?

A movement of people saying they are attracted to cis people of the opposite sex and defining that as their sexuality while demanding people accept it or they are "Superphobes", made in response to claims by some in the trans activist community that its transphobic not to want to sleep with post-op transpeople who transition to the sex you would usually identify as being sexually attracted to. Spin offs include "superlesbian" and "supergay".

Mainly strikes me as a bunch of 4Chan trolling. Best not to feed the trolls.

I think it's fairly dumb but appears to be aligning with a genuine issue some cis people report experiencing of facing abuse and so on for not finding transpeople attractive.

I've never heard of it before, but it definitely sounds like a 4Chan/Poal/whatever thing.

Although if someone wanted to have sex, I can understand why they would prefer a biological male/female over a transman/transwomen, while not being at all transphobic.

And there is a subreddit up for it, because of course there is.

[Ostroeuropa]

A movement of people saying they are attracted to cis people of the opposite sex and defining that as their sexuality while demanding people accept it or they are "Superphobes", made in response to claims by some in the trans activist community that its transphobic not to want to sleep with post-op transpeople who transition to the sex you would usually identify as being sexually attracted to. Spin offs include "superlesbian" and "supergay".



I think it's fairly dumb but appears to be aligning with a genuine issue some cis people report experiencing of facing abuse and so on for not finding transpeople attractive.

I've never heard of it before, but it definitely sounds like a 4Chan/Poal/whatever thing.

Although if someone wanted to have sex, I can understand why they would prefer a biological male/female over a transman/transwomen, while not being at all transphobic.

And there is a subreddit up for it, because of course there is.

A guy on tiktok explained his view that he accepts transwomen are women, transmen are men and so on, but that he does not find them sexually attractive and was sick of being called a transphobe for saying he doesn't want to consider them as dating partners. He said that if they're going to try and define "straight" in such a way that makes it "trans-inclusive" that's fine, but he'll just say he's "Superstraight" instead and defined it.

He got a shitload of death threats and abuse from trans activists until he pulled the video down.

4chan discussed the incident and decided to run with the concept.

It doesn't originate on 4chan per se, but more originates in them viewing the histrionic reaction of trans activists to the video and deciding to troll them by repeating it and spamming it everywhere and attempting to drive it into the mainstream.

[Stellar Colonies]

I've never heard of it before, but it definitely sounds like a 4Chan/Poal/whatever thing.

Although if someone wanted to have sex, I can understand why they would prefer a biological male/female over a transman/transwomen, while not being at all transphobic.

And there is a subreddit up for it, because of course there is.

A guy on tiktok explained his view that he accepts transwomen are women, transmen are men and so on, but that he does not find them sexually attractive and was sick of being called a transphobe for saying he doesn't want to consider them as dating partners. He said that if they're going to try and define "straight" in such a way that makes it "trans-inclusive" that's fine, but he'll just say he's "Superstraight" instead and defined it.

He got a shitload of death threats and abuse from trans activists until he pulled the video down.

4chan discussed the incident and decided to run with the concept.

It doesn't originate on 4chan per se, but more originates in them viewing the histrionic reaction of trans activists to the video and deciding to troll them by repeating it and spamming it everywhere and attempting to drive it into the mainstream.

Ah...TikTok.

Well, that preference is perfectly understandable imo, but it is clearly vulnerable to being hijacked by genuine transphobes, which it probably already has.

The simple act on its own of a cishetero/cisnonhetero preferring another cishetero/cisnonhetero is not transphobic and should not be slandered as such, but a lot of this 'superstraight' stuff is probably being driven by actual transphobes.

[Esalia]

What is it?

A movement of people saying they are attracted to cis people of the opposite sex and defining that as their sexuality while demanding people accept it or they are "Superphobes", made in response to claims by some in the trans activist community that its transphobic not to want to sleep with post-op transpeople who transition to the sex you would usually identify as being sexually attracted to.

Mainly strikes me as a bunch of 4Chan trolling. Best not to feed the trolls.

I think it's fairly dumb but appears to be aligning with a genuine issue some cis people report experiencing of facing abuse and so on for not finding transpeople attractive.

They may have a nugget of a point in there, but it seems clear to me that the people pushing the "Super Straight" thing aren't in it to make a point but just to rile people up, and that point is mainly a springboard for that.

About that point, I don't think someone should be shamed or attacked if they genuinely just don't have an attraction to trans people. Attraction is not something someone has control over, and shaming/attacking someone for that is counterproductive.

That said, if one's reason for not dating trans people is genuine transphobia (e.g not seeing them as the gender they identify as), that's something worthy of criticism. If it's misconceptions about trans people, informing people rather than shaming/attacking them could help there.

[Galloism]

I've never heard of it before, but it definitely sounds like a 4Chan/Poal/whatever thing.

Although if someone wanted to have sex, I can understand why they would prefer a biological male/female over a transman/transwomen, while not being at all transphobic.

And there is a subreddit up for it, because of course there is.

A guy on tiktok explained his view that he accepts transwomen are women, transmen are men and so on, but that he does not find them sexually attractive and was sick of being called a transphobe for saying he doesn't want to consider them as dating partners. He said that if they're going to try and define "straight" in such a way that makes it "trans-inclusive" that's fine, but he'll just say he's "Superstraight" instead and defined it.

He got a shitload of death threats and abuse from trans activists until he pulled the video down.

4chan discussed the incident and decided to run with the concept.

It doesn't originate on 4chan per se, but more originates in them viewing the histrionic reaction of trans activists to the video and deciding to troll them by repeating it and spamming it everywhere and attempting to drive it into the mainstream.

Sounds about right.

Anyway, it's not in any way transphobic to not want to date trans persons. Preferences are preferences. Only dating blondes and redheads doesn't make you kastanophobic.

[FNU]

I am discovering there are a lot more types of phobics than I thought possible.

[Stellar Colonies]

I am discovering there are a lot more types of phobics than I thought possible.

So much for 'superphobic' meaning someone who hates or fears someone like Captain America.

Now people are just going to think of this new thing.

[FNU]

I am discovering there are a lot more types of phobics than I thought possible.

So much for 'superphobic' meaning someone who hates or fears someone like Captain America.

Now people are just going to think of this new thing.

Sometimes it scares me how quickly humans develop new terms and ideas. Though I will admit, I've enjoyed the comedy hour caused by the whole ordeal.

[Stellar Colonies]

So much for 'superphobic' meaning someone who hates or fears someone like Captain America.

Now people are just going to think of this new thing.

Sometimes it scares me how quickly humans develop new terms and ideas. Though I will admit, I've enjoyed the comedy hour caused by the whole ordeal.

It is certainly interesting to watch unfold, that is true, although the flamewars it is triggering will probably be more destructive than constructive.

[Senkaku]

I've never heard of it before, but it definitely sounds like a 4Chan/Poal/whatever thing.

Although if someone wanted to have sex, I can understand why they would prefer a biological male/female over a transman/transwomen, while not being at all transphobic.

And there is a subreddit up for it, because of course there is.

A guy on tiktok explained his view that he accepts transwomen are women, transmen are men and so on, but that he does not find them sexually attractive and was sick of being called a transphobe for saying he doesn't want to consider them as dating partners. He said that if they're going to try and define "straight" in such a way that makes it "trans-inclusive" that's fine, but he'll just say he's "Superstraight" instead and defined it.

He got a shitload of death threats and abuse from trans activists until he pulled the video down.

it's even dumber than demisexuality, and it has the added benefit of implying shitty things about trans people whether or not any individual spouting off about it feels that way

you do not need to label every single tiny quirk or preference, this population has more than enough bins already

4chan discussed the incident and decided to run with the concept.

It doesn't originate on 4chan per se, but more originates in them viewing the histrionic reaction of trans activists to the video and deciding to troll them by repeating it and spamming it everywhere and attempting to drive it into the mainstream.

hence why people are calling it a 4chan op

truly who cares, Ostro

[Dumb Ideologies]

What do people think of this "Superstraight" thing?

A lot of it is people going around with the intention of deliberately winding people up, which is not a very nice thing to do. However, it does come as a response to obnoxious and frankly slightly abusive narratives peddled by some of the more radical trans activists whereby emotional manipulation and name calling is deployed to try and tell people that they must choose between changing their sexual preferences or being bigots. So I understand the reaction.

Mostly it is some of the least likeable elements of the internet shouting at each other, and if some happen to get their accounts deleted in the crossfire I'm very okay with that.

[Ostroeuropa]

What do people think of this "Superstraight" thing?

A lot of it is people going around with the intention of deliberately winding people up, which is not a very nice thing to do. However, it does come as a response to obnoxious and frankly slightly abusive narratives peddled by some of the more radical trans activists whereby emotional manipulation and name calling is deployed to try and tell people that they must choose between changing their sexual preferences or being bigots. So I understand the reaction.

Mostly it is some of the least likeable elements of the internet shouting at each other, and if some happen to get their accounts deleted in the crossfire I'm very okay with that.

I think that's a pretty fair assessment. Wind-up merchants milking the cringe-cow of the radical activists without really caring about the ordinary transfolk caught in the crossfire or how it will make them feel.

I expect the prominence of the shouty radicals will in turn radicalize more normies into the wind-up merchants camp and the gaslighting and genuine transphobia they slip into their messaging will radicalize more transpeople.

So you know, just another day on the internet.

[Dumb Ideologies]

A lot of it is people going around with the intention of deliberately winding people up, which is not a very nice thing to do. However, it does come as a response to obnoxious and frankly slightly abusive narratives peddled by some of the more radical trans activists whereby emotional manipulation and name calling is deployed to try and tell people that they must choose between changing their sexual preferences or being bigots. So I understand the reaction.

Mostly it is some of the least likeable elements of the internet shouting at each other, and if some happen to get their accounts deleted in the crossfire I'm very okay with that.

I think that's a pretty fair assessment. Wind-up merchants milking the cringe-cow of the radical activists without really caring about the ordinary transfolk caught in the crossfire or how it will make them feel.

I expect the prominence of the shouty radicals will in turn radicalize more normies into the wind-up merchants camp and the gaslighting and genuine transphobia they slip into their messaging will radicalize more transpeople.

So you know, just another day on the internet.

Every day I become more of a doomer.

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

i think there's nuance to the """superstraight""" thing but the second i saw the flag i knew it was somebody shitposting. i understand someone who is straight or gay having a physical preference and that's fine so long as they're not like "ewww a [insert slur of choice here]" but if the trans person in question is indistinguishable from a cis person without running a fucking karotype or something and suddenly upon the reveal that they are trans the cis person murders them is no longer interested that's pretty transphobic.

best laugh i've had in a while though

[Ostroeuropa]

i think there's nuance to the """superstraight""" thing but the second i saw the flag i knew it was somebody shitposting. i understand someone who is straight or gay having a physical preference and that's fine so long as they're not like "ewww a [insert slur of choice here]" but if the trans person in question is indistinguishable from a cis person without running a fucking karotype or something and suddenly upon the reveal that they are trans the cis person murders them is no longer interested that's pretty transphobic.

best laugh i've had in a while though

I disagree that this is transphobic.

TW for those who need one as I understand this can be a very sensitive topic.

Let's walk through an example.
Is it understandable to lose attraction to someone after finding out they have fake breasts?
Does the "artificiality" of the body being a turn-off imply anything unreasonable?
Follow this train of thought and you'll see the potential issue.

For some people a highly convincing fascimile of a particular set of genitals is going to be unattractive once the artificiality is known.
This is however something that not all people share. Some people are actively turned on by it, and some people are indifferent to it.

A transbody being unattractive to one section of the population should not be perceived as transphobia anymore than a lack of taste for other types of body should be. Your argument would only apply if transbodies were identical to cisbodies. They aren't.

This goes unstated in much of this discussion (by decent people anyway) because of the understanding that this is not by the transpersons choice and that it is to some extent a traumatic thing for some of them to think about.

But in terms of the person lusting or not lusting, from their perspective it is little different than "I am attracted to short bodies" or "I am not attracted to short bodies" or "I am indifferent to this" in the context where pointing out "You are in fact not a tall bodied person and that is why I am not attracted to you" would be inviting potential abuse, death threats, social repercussions, and so on because it "Is traumatic to short people to be reminded they are short".

And to be clear, I accept it is traumatic. But the same form of trauma in lesser degrees is felt by people of all body types and we don't tend to have this kind of dynamic around it where noting it is perceived as being anti-that-person.

Just because transpeople don't like to think about it doesn't mean they should be given license to force other people to ignore it. Their body issues are ultimately their responsibility to deal with instead of making it other peoples problem.

I think a good part of the reason trans people are calling this transphobic is because the discussion relies on dancing around this point and triggering them by implying it or in some cases outright stating it in more offensive ways than I have. Ordinarily it is something that polite society should simply be polite about as it should with all body issues of this kind. But "Superstraights" are not obliged not to talk about this if radical trans activists keep insisting that not sleeping with transpeople is transphobic. It is basically emotionally manipulative and abusive because it places those people in a position where they either have to give in, or remind someone of something traumatic to them at which point they're made into the bad guy.

I am not surprised there is backlash to it from cis people.

[Zul-ar]

I personally think it's transphobic to say you aren't attracted to trans people.

My reasoning for this is that the reason is almost always "trans people are too masculine/feminine and have genitalia I am not attracted to," which is a silly reason to say "I am not attracted to trans people," considering there are trans people who pass perfectly and do not have had surgery done down there.

What you mean is you are not attracted to man-ish women/woman-ish men, or people with genitalia that does not match their gender. Which is fine, but don't discount all trans people because of that.

[Giovenith]

I feel like this is a topic more appropriate for the transgender thread, guys.

[Ostroeuropa]

I feel like this is a topic more appropriate for the transgender thread, guys.

Fair point.

[Kowani]

Mass Women’s marches being planned across Latin America, over femicide, economic injustice, and hardships increased by the pandemic