The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

[Fahran]

My guess is that NHA means to say that the average length of a straight monogamous marriage is 5 years, though obviously, as with most averages, the median is more reflective than the mean, because a large portion of marriages end at the extremes of length (i.e. are very short or very long).

Based on my research, that doesn't seem accurate either.

Studies suggest that 20 percent of marriages end within the first five years and that this number increased by 12 percent within 10 years. But between 10 years and 15 years, the rate only increases about 8 percent, implying that one of the safest stages of your marriage is between years 10 and 15.

Source

It sounds like about 32% of married couples divorce within 10 years and 40% of married couples divorce within 15 years. To quote another source...

On average, the typical U.S. marriage that ends in divorce lasts just eight years.3 Worldwide, the average length of marriage can vary widely by country. In Italy, for example, the typical couple stays married for 17 years and the divorce rate is around 42%.4 In Qatar, on the other hand, the divorce rate is 69.5%, with marriages lasting less than 5 years on average.

This sounds a bit more reasonable. I suspect the 32% of marriages that last fewer than 10 years skew a bit low, dragging down the overall total. I have a suspicion as well that we're only looking at data sets for couples who divorced as opposed to all couples since a couple staying married for more than 20 years, as close to 50% of couples do, would skew the numbers much, much higher.

[Fahran]

1. The Greatest Generation and Boomers were able to afford entire houses and multiple kids with the average 1 family income. Some were able to own and support entire farms.

We're unlikely to ever replicate the economic conditions that allowed the Greatest Generation and Baby Boomers to live that well, not with such stiffer competition for industrial and service jobs globally and the downward pressure that's going to invariably exert on wages. The death of trade unions has exacerbated the situation even more.

2. And that's a bad thing.

Home ownership has remained more or less constant for the past fifty years, and the average American homeowner is a millennial aged around 34 according to the statistics. Like marriage, we seem to be delaying home ownership rather than foregoing it altogether. We could probably address that in part by not wasting four years to get a degree as a prerequisite for working a low-skill entry-level office job that pays $10 to $15 an hour and by engaging in a bit of economic nationalism. We could bring back trade unions and adjust minimum wage to match inflation as well.

3. Yeah, and people expected women to be more forward and open when it came to dating the more economic power and independence they got in society. Hasn't happened yet.

That's really a separate issue. We actually have some pretty good indications that people are going to be moving around to obtain better career prospects because it's already happening. There's a serious brain-drain from poor rural areas to wealthy suburbs and urban economically relevant sprawls.

4. That only accounts for the US. But yeah, in the US' case the vast majority of divorces are from 5-10 year marriages. But also, committed monogamous relationships without marriage also tend to last ~5 years. (I swear I mention this is my post...)

Okay, so that claim's a little bit different than how you worded it and seems to largely hold up.

[New haven america]

1. The Greatest Generation and Boomers were able to afford entire houses and multiple kids with the average 1 family income. Some were able to own and support entire farms.

1. We're unlikely to ever replicate the economic conditions that allowed the Greatest Generation and Baby Boomers to live that well, not with such stiffer competition for industrial and service jobs globally and the downward pressure that's going to invariably exert on wages. The death of trade unions has exacerbated the situation even more.

2. And that's a bad thing.

2. Home ownership has remained more or less constant for the past fifty years, and the average American homeowner is a millennial aged around 34 according to the statistics. Like marriage, we seem to be delaying home ownership rather than foregoing it altogether. We could probably address that in part by not wasting four years to get a degree as a prerequisite for working a low-skill entry-level office job that pays $10 to $15 an hour and by engaging in a bit of economic nationalism. We could bring back trade unions and adjust minimum wage to match inflation as well.

3. Yeah, and people expected women to be more forward and open when it came to dating the more economic power and independence they got in society. Hasn't happened yet.

3. That's really a separate issue. We actually have some pretty good indications that people are going to be moving around to obtain better career prospects because it's already happening. There's a serious brain-drain from poor rural areas to wealthy suburbs and urban economically relevant sprawls.

4. That only accounts for the US. But yeah, in the US' case the vast majority of divorces are from 5-10 year marriages. But also, committed monogamous relationships without marriage also tend to last ~5 years. (I swear I mention this is my post...)

4. Okay, so that claim's a little bit different than how you worded it and seems to largely hold up.

1. Complete and utter ~bullshit~ We can, easily, several countries do so in fact (As can be seen with most of Europe), only thing stopping the US or Canada or Australia or etc... is refusal to stop giving in to the corporate overlords who actually run these countries. Did you know there are more living areas in the US than there are people? (Houses, apartments, duplexes, condos, etc...)
2. Because everything's too expensive for the wages people currently make.
3. Nope, not at all.
4. It is not, I mentioned both marriage and non-marriage romantic relationships in my originally quoted post. This is a misunderstanding on your part.

[Fahran]

1. Complete and utter ~bullshit~ We can, easily, several countries do so in fact (As can be seen with most of Europe), only thing stopping the US or Canada or Australia or etc... is refusal to stop giving in to the corporate overlords who actually run these countries. Did you know there are more living areas in the US than there are people? (Houses, apartments, duplexes, condos, etc...)

In terms of home ownership, the US actually doesn't compare horribly with other industrialized nations at all. As an example...

US - 64.8%
UK - 65.2%
France - 65.1%
Germany - 51.5%
Sweden - 64.1%
Canada - 67.0%
Australia - 67.0%

We're also 4th when it comes to PPP, behind Iceland, Luxembourg, and Switzerland. In terms of local purchasing power, we come only behind Switzerland. The principal problem is that income inequality leads to the least well-off Americans being much worse off than the least well-off Europeans or Canadians. In terms of our middle-class, they're pretty well-off globally.

Source
Source

2. Because everything's too expensive for the wages people currently make.

The US cost of living index is pretty comparable to that of the UK or France as per my source. The main issue is that the US rent index is the second heighest in the world, which further substantiates my point about income inequality and the least well-off Americans being worse off than the least well-off Europeans and Canadians.

3. Nope, not at all.

How not?

4. It is not, I mentioned both marriage and non-marriage romantic relationships in my originally quoted post. This is a misunderstanding on your part.

While you did mention both, I focused in on this particular claim.

(Even thought most straight monogamous marriages only last 5 years) Hm...

[New haven america]

1. Complete and utter ~bullshit~ We can, easily, several countries do so in fact (As can be seen with most of Europe), only thing stopping the US or Canada or Australia or etc... is refusal to stop giving in to the corporate overlords who actually run these countries. Did you know there are more living areas in the US than there are people? (Houses, apartments, duplexes, condos, etc...)

1. In terms of home ownership, the US actually doesn't compare horribly with other industrialized nations at all. As an example...

US - 64.8%
UK - 65.2%
France - 65.1%
Germany - 51.5%
Sweden - 64.1%
Canada - 67.0%
Australia - 67.0%

We're also 4th when it comes to PPP, behind Iceland, Luxembourg, and Switzerland. In terms of local purchasing power, we come only behind Switzerland. The principal problem is that income inequality leads to the least well-off Americans being much worse off than the least well-off Europeans or Canadians. In terms of our middle-class, they're pretty well-off globally.

Source
Source

2. Because everything's too expensive for the wages people currently make.

2. The US cost of living index is pretty comparable to that of the UK or France as per my source. The main issue is that the US rent index is the second heighest in the world, which further substantiates my point about income inequality and the least well-off Americans being worse off than the least well-off Europeans and Canadians.

3. Nope, not at all.

3. How not?

4. It is not, I mentioned both marriage and non-marriage romantic relationships in my originally quoted post. This is a misunderstanding on your part.

4. While you did mention both, I focused in on this particular claim.

(Even thought most straight monogamous marriages only last 5 years) Hm...

1. A 1 story run down shack in a high crime neighborhood that requires an entire month's paycheck for mortgage isn't what most people consider home ownership.
2. Thank you for proving my point.
3. Just because something is expected to change in society (Especially social standards) doesn't mean it will be.
4.

2. Yeah, and roommates are more stable than the average monogamous romantic relationship and/or marriage

:>

[Fahran]

1. A 1 story run down shack in a high crime neighborhood that requires an entire month's paycheck for mortgage isn't what most people consider home ownership.

The average price of a home purchased in the last quarter of 2020 was $393,300. And, before you ask, the average price of a home for the past two decades has been above $200,000. In most suburban areas, that's a modest but respectable home. Not a dilapidated shack in a high crime neighborhood. Oddly enough, a lot of those homes may well be undervalued too. Now, if you live in a densely populated urban sprawl, the home'll be less nice, but that's not really a problem unique to the US. It has to do with scarcity and high demand relative to low supply.

Source.

2. Thank you for proving my point.

You're point was unnuanced and broadly speaking wrong. Most people in the US are doing quite well, especially if they're middle-class. The people who are doing poorly are working-class or poor, earning less than $20,000 annually. In my neck of the woods, two people earning $25,000 to $30,000 each annually could probably live fairly well on a tight budget. The median individual income hangs around $31,000 whereas the median household income is $68,703. This might differ locally, but that's a local problem more so than a national one.

3. Just because something is expected to change in society (Especially social standards) doesn't mean it will be.

We've observed the social changes in question.

Source

:>

I'm aware. I focused on the separate claim you made.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

-snip-

This is, of course, nonsense. A smaller sample is less able to identify a trend that exists, but it is no more likely to falsely identify a trend that doesn’t, given the same level of significance.

Heck, I was taught to avoid surveying more people than I expect to need in order to show a statistically significant result, because sample surveying is expensive.

[New haven america]

I mean, this is now the third time I’ve linked it in the last two pages, one of which was directly to you in response, but here we go again.

https://zenodo.org/record/3871217#

And yes, hate speech is very common in feminist academia. It doesn’t surprise me that you would see it commonly in such context. As the study notes, while equality and view of toxic masculinity aren’t linked, belief in patriarchy is.

Buying into that narrative makes you more likely to use this hate speech.

The study you quote have just 255 participants: when there are less than 1,000 participants the results of a study are statistically irrelevant, practically meaningless.
According some the threshold of reliability could be set at 500, but 255 it's still very far even from this reduced threshold. A reliable study should have at least 1,000, and 2,000-3,000 would be better, more reliable.
"255 participants" is just like asking the hairdresser.
Actually the hairdresser could be somewhat more reliable, given usually she have more customers.

Actually larger sample surveys are expensive and are more likely to produce mixed data.

So most scientists tend to go for smaller or medium sized groups instead of 1000+, cause they don't got the time to parse out all that data or money for that.

[Sundiata]

Another movement, like contemporary feminism, which is more or less misguided. The problem isn't men or women, masculinity or femininity. It's a social structure that's geared more and more by day to the address of every inane impulse.

Does the root of this argument happen to be "society bad bc not catholic?"

No, because even if tomorrow Pope Francis annointed me the King of Earth we would all still struggle with our lust, our greed, our pride, our anger, and other personal weaknesses. Being Catholic is not enough to save us from a world that seems to have gone crazy.

It's really just a start to tell people, hey you're better than you think you are. Or hey, you have dignity. I can't make people sincerely love themselves and others but the things we do are a start.

Also, we could have great material wealth, a beautiful spouse, high quality of life, but it's all for nothing if we don't use it to will each other's good.

[Sundiata]

Does the root of this argument happen to be "society bad bc not catholic?"

The root is basically Opus Dopus and "New Feminism", which is basically the catholic attempt to get their own church-compatible type of feminism. Just because.

Well, not "just because." It's that we've gotten so confused about why women, why everyone is even here. In particular, women are a profound subject in almost every sense. This contrasts with the contemporary feminist criticism of woman as an object. To the extent possible, a delighted woman is heroic.

[Bear Stearns]

US - 64.8%
UK - 65.2%
France - 65.1%
Germany - 51.5%
Sweden - 64.1%
Canada - 67.0%
Australia - 67.0%

There is no way home ownership in the UK is that high.

[Odreria]

I mean, this is now the third time I’ve linked it in the last two pages, one of which was directly to you in response, but here we go again.

https://zenodo.org/record/3871217#

And yes, hate speech is very common in feminist academia. It doesn’t surprise me that you would see it commonly in such context. As the study notes, while equality and view of toxic masculinity aren’t linked, belief in patriarchy is.

Buying into that narrative makes you more likely to use this hate speech.

The study you quote have just 255 participants: when there are less than 1,000 participants the results of a study are statistically irrelevant, practically meaningless.
According some the threshold of reliability could be set at 500, but 255 it's still very far even from this reduced threshold. A reliable study should have at least 1,000, and 2,000-3,000 would be better, more reliable.
"255 participants" is just like asking the hairdresser.
Actually the hairdresser could be somewhat more reliable, given usually she have more customers.

Not how statistics works at all. Only 50 women were asked, which is too few to be reliable, but there is extremely little difference between asking a question to 200 men vs 2 million men.

[Fahran]

There is no way home ownership in the UK is that high.

That was the reported figure as of 2018. Oddly enough, Romania has a 96% rate of home ownership, but I suspect that this has a lot to do with lower relative costs of living and Romania's being content with fewer amenities to some extent. My point in all of this is that a lot of the people griping about the economic woes of the US often aren't emphasizing the actual issues even if they might be able to give a correct assessment of income inequality. As an example, the US has lower rates of homelessness than the UK, Germany, Sweden, the Czech Republic, and Canada by some metrics. In short, we don't really have a housing problem compared to other industrialized nations. We do have a rent problem though.

The reason pointing out these inaccuracies and having these conversations matters is because it provides us with an informed foundation from which to pursue policies beneficial to social welfare in the most cost-effective and salient manner possible. If NVA was correct, we'd need to address home ownership. Meanwhile we'd be ignoring the more dire problem of ballooning rent, which has an even more disproportionate impact on people in their 20s and the urban poor. There's a reason a lot of municipal governments are slapping apartments on every block and looking at the broader national trend can provide some insight into that.

[Kowani]

India's Chief Justice Sharad Arvind Bobde tells rapist to marry his schoolgirl victim to avoid jail

More than 5,000 people have signed a petition demanding Chief Justice Sharad Arvind Bobde quit after he told the government technician at a hearing: “If you want to marry (her) we can help you. If not, you lose your job and go to jail.”

Bobde’s comments sparked a furor and prompted women’s rights activists to circulate an open letter calling for his resignation that has secured more than 5,200 signatures, campaigner Vani Subramanian said.

According to the letter, the man is accused of stalking, tying up, gagging and repeatedly raping the girl before threatening to douse her in petrol, set her alight and have her brother killed. [...] The letter also drew attention to another hearing on Monday during which Bobde reportedly questioned whether sex between a married couple could ever be considered rape.

“The husband may be a brutal man, but can you call the act of sexual intercourse between a lawfully wedded man and wife as rape?” he said.

[Zul-ar]

India's Chief Justice Sharad Arvind Bobde tells rapist to marry his schoolgirl victim to avoid jail

More than 5,000 people have signed a petition demanding Chief Justice Sharad Arvind Bobde quit after he told the government technician at a hearing: “If you want to marry (her) we can help you. If not, you lose your job and go to jail.”

Bobde’s comments sparked a furor and prompted women’s rights activists to circulate an open letter calling for his resignation that has secured more than 5,200 signatures, campaigner Vani Subramanian said.

According to the letter, the man is accused of stalking, tying up, gagging and repeatedly raping the girl before threatening to douse her in petrol, set her alight and have her brother killed. [...] The letter also drew attention to another hearing on Monday during which Bobde reportedly questioned whether sex between a married couple could ever be considered rape.

“The husband may be a brutal man, but can you call the act of sexual intercourse between a lawfully wedded man and wife as rape?” he said.

If it's non-consensual, I damn well can and will

[Galloism]

India's Chief Justice Sharad Arvind Bobde tells rapist to marry his schoolgirl victim to avoid jail

More than 5,000 people have signed a petition demanding Chief Justice Sharad Arvind Bobde quit after he told the government technician at a hearing: “If you want to marry (her) we can help you. If not, you lose your job and go to jail.”

Bobde’s comments sparked a furor and prompted women’s rights activists to circulate an open letter calling for his resignation that has secured more than 5,200 signatures, campaigner Vani Subramanian said.

According to the letter, the man is accused of stalking, tying up, gagging and repeatedly raping the girl before threatening to douse her in petrol, set her alight and have her brother killed. [...] The letter also drew attention to another hearing on Monday during which Bobde reportedly questioned whether sex between a married couple could ever be considered rape.

“The husband may be a brutal man, but can you call the act of sexual intercourse between a lawfully wedded man and wife as rape?” he said.

Excuse me, what the hell?

[Borderlands of Rojava]

India's Chief Justice Sharad Arvind Bobde tells rapist to marry his schoolgirl victim to avoid jail

More than 5,000 people have signed a petition demanding Chief Justice Sharad Arvind Bobde quit after he told the government technician at a hearing: “If you want to marry (her) we can help you. If not, you lose your job and go to jail.”

Bobde’s comments sparked a furor and prompted women’s rights activists to circulate an open letter calling for his resignation that has secured more than 5,200 signatures, campaigner Vani Subramanian said.

According to the letter, the man is accused of stalking, tying up, gagging and repeatedly raping the girl before threatening to douse her in petrol, set her alight and have her brother killed. [...] The letter also drew attention to another hearing on Monday during which Bobde reportedly questioned whether sex between a married couple could ever be considered rape.

“The husband may be a brutal man, but can you call the act of sexual intercourse between a lawfully wedded man and wife as rape?” he said.

"Its not rape cause I made them get married." Is this dude doing bath salts?

[Crysuko]

India's Chief Justice Sharad Arvind Bobde tells rapist to marry his schoolgirl victim to avoid jail

More than 5,000 people have signed a petition demanding Chief Justice Sharad Arvind Bobde quit after he told the government technician at a hearing: “If you want to marry (her) we can help you. If not, you lose your job and go to jail.”

Bobde’s comments sparked a furor and prompted women’s rights activists to circulate an open letter calling for his resignation that has secured more than 5,200 signatures, campaigner Vani Subramanian said.

According to the letter, the man is accused of stalking, tying up, gagging and repeatedly raping the girl before threatening to douse her in petrol, set her alight and have her brother killed. [...] The letter also drew attention to another hearing on Monday during which Bobde reportedly questioned whether sex between a married couple could ever be considered rape.

“The husband may be a brutal man, but can you call the act of sexual intercourse between a lawfully wedded man and wife as rape?” he said.

"Its not rape cause I made them get married." Is this dude doing bath salts?

Worse, religious conservatism

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

India's Chief Justice Sharad Arvind Bobde tells rapist to marry his schoolgirl victim to avoid jail

More than 5,000 people have signed a petition demanding Chief Justice Sharad Arvind Bobde quit after he told the government technician at a hearing: “If you want to marry (her) we can help you. If not, you lose your job and go to jail.”

Bobde’s comments sparked a furor and prompted women’s rights activists to circulate an open letter calling for his resignation that has secured more than 5,200 signatures, campaigner Vani Subramanian said.

According to the letter, the man is accused of stalking, tying up, gagging and repeatedly raping the girl before threatening to douse her in petrol, set her alight and have her brother killed. [...] The letter also drew attention to another hearing on Monday during which Bobde reportedly questioned whether sex between a married couple could ever be considered rape.

“The husband may be a brutal man, but can you call the act of sexual intercourse between a lawfully wedded man and wife as rape?” he said.

why

[Stellar Colonies]

India's Chief Justice Sharad Arvind Bobde tells rapist to marry his schoolgirl victim to avoid jail

More than 5,000 people have signed a petition demanding Chief Justice Sharad Arvind Bobde quit after he told the government technician at a hearing: “If you want to marry (her) we can help you. If not, you lose your job and go to jail.”

Bobde’s comments sparked a furor and prompted women’s rights activists to circulate an open letter calling for his resignation that has secured more than 5,200 signatures, campaigner Vani Subramanian said.

According to the letter, the man is accused of stalking, tying up, gagging and repeatedly raping the girl before threatening to douse her in petrol, set her alight and have her brother killed. [...] The letter also drew attention to another hearing on Monday during which Bobde reportedly questioned whether sex between a married couple could ever be considered rape.

“The husband may be a brutal man, but can you call the act of sexual intercourse between a lawfully wedded man and wife as rape?” he said.

This idea of the act of one spouse forcing sex on his/her partner not being rape simply because they are married is always so simultaneously disturbing and weird whenever I come across it.

[Fahran]

India's Chief Justice Sharad Arvind Bobde tells rapist to marry his schoolgirl victim to avoid jail

More than 5,000 people have signed a petition demanding Chief Justice Sharad Arvind Bobde quit after he told the government technician at a hearing: “If you want to marry (her) we can help you. If not, you lose your job and go to jail.”

Bobde’s comments sparked a furor and prompted women’s rights activists to circulate an open letter calling for his resignation that has secured more than 5,200 signatures, campaigner Vani Subramanian said.

According to the letter, the man is accused of stalking, tying up, gagging and repeatedly raping the girl before threatening to douse her in petrol, set her alight and have her brother killed. [...] The letter also drew attention to another hearing on Monday during which Bobde reportedly questioned whether sex between a married couple could ever be considered rape.

“The husband may be a brutal man, but can you call the act of sexual intercourse between a lawfully wedded man and wife as rape?” he said.

I can't really say that I'm surprised by this. It's about par for the course in South Asia.

[Kowani]

okay
really interesting meta-synthesis of 3 decades of human brain sex difference research suggests that dimorphism in the brain is really not the case

i'll do a more comprehensive breakdown later

[Wink Wonk We Like Stonks]

India's Chief Justice Sharad Arvind Bobde tells rapist to marry his schoolgirl victim to avoid jail

More than 5,000 people have signed a petition demanding Chief Justice Sharad Arvind Bobde quit after he told the government technician at a hearing: “If you want to marry (her) we can help you. If not, you lose your job and go to jail.”

Bobde’s comments sparked a furor and prompted women’s rights activists to circulate an open letter calling for his resignation that has secured more than 5,200 signatures, campaigner Vani Subramanian said.

According to the letter, the man is accused of stalking, tying up, gagging and repeatedly raping the girl before threatening to douse her in petrol, set her alight and have her brother killed. [...] The letter also drew attention to another hearing on Monday during which Bobde reportedly questioned whether sex between a married couple could ever be considered rape.

“The husband may be a brutal man, but can you call the act of sexual intercourse between a lawfully wedded man and wife as rape?” he said.

This idea of the act of one spouse forcing sex on his/her partner not being rape simply because they are married is always so simultaneously disturbing and weird whenever I come across it.

the ""logic"" behind it is probably "we are married so therefore i have complete rights to your body" which sounds more like slavery than marriage tbh

[Auzkhia]

okay
really interesting meta-synthesis of 3 decades of human brain sex difference research suggests that dimorphism in the brain is really not the case

i'll do a more comprehensive breakdown later

The so called brain sex is a lot more complex than just bimodal distribution.

[Senkaku]

Most people in the US are doing quite well, especially if they're middle-class. The people who are doing poorly are working-class or poor, earning less than $20,000 annually. In my neck of the woods, two people earning $25,000 to $30,000 each annually could probably live fairly well on a tight budget. The median individual income hangs around $31,000 whereas the median household income is $68,703. This might differ locally, but that's a local problem more so than a national one.

the poor will always be with us be really more of a local problem than a national one, so like, don't worry too much about it!