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The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Stellar Colonies
Minister
 
Posts: 2403
Founded: Mar 27, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Stellar Colonies » Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:46 am

Saiwania wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:Because it isnt your right to tell people what to do with themselves, and they'll just do it behind the scenes. This is such a bad idea.


The point from my perspective, isn't to actually eliminate all instances of premarital sex. Rather it is social control to reign in the behaviors of men and women to be a bit more constrained if not confined to better contexts than is the case now, and perhaps to reduce if not eliminate STDs to the most extent possible.

Taking action designed to try and eliminate it instead of regulate it will only result in cases of STDs/STIs skyrocketing. You would have to fundamentally alter Western cultures in order to achieve anything even remotely close to that, and even if that were possible (which I seriously doubt), the people skirting the rules would still result in conditions getting worse.

Saiwania wrote:I just know that the more sexually conservative a nation is, the more impressed by it I am. It is such a good idea in my view precisely because sex and relationships are taken far more seriously and with better more formal protocol in such places. None of the MGTOW, PUA, Red Pill, etc. foolishness in those places. Not so far as I can see.

It would be good for sex a nd relationships to be taken more seriously...but this would cause equivalently large problems to our current situation. The best option is to regulate it in a way that improves the safety of those involved...although the current culture of casual sex could stand some stripping down and reforming.

Saiwania wrote:It is instead the family/clan units laying down the law and spelling out how it is which is: We follow the Shariah or Leviticus laws: no ifs, ands, or buts. Nothing gonna happen unless the marriage happens, and no marriage gonna happen unless the man/woman has jumped through all the hoops and really is accepted for such a union. People gotta choose who they want to be with, but the family also gotta be able to put the man/woman through the ringer figuratively speaking (if that applies), to test their value/dedication in determining if they're really worthy enough or if the union will be good or bad objectively speaking.

...and they could be sexually incompatible, which they wouldn't know until after the union.
Last edited by Stellar Colonies on Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
357 days since local 'stay-at-home order' was announced

Native of The East Pacific and Northern California


Stellar Colonies is a loose confederacy comprised from most of the human-settled parts of the galaxy.

Ida Station is the only Confederate member state permitted to join the WA.
An Incomplete List of Ida's Interpretations of WA Resolutions

Add 3000 years for the date I use.
If you want a mental image of me: Straight(?), white male.

I try to be objective, but I do have some biases.

I don't think the political compass is
fully accurate, but here are my results:

X-Axis: -5.38
Y-Axis: -2.62

Also, I'm diagnosed as a high-functioning autistic.

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Northern Socialist Council Republics
Diplomat
 
Posts: 767
Founded: Dec 13, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Northern Socialist Council Republics » Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:53 am

The effectiveness of abstinence-only sex education really does speak for itself.

And what it says, of course, is that one can't demand that young adults not have sex and expect them to actually listen. It'll never work and people should stop trying.
Last edited by Northern Socialist Council Republics on Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Call me "Russ" if you're referring to me the out-of-character poster or "NSRS" if you're referring to me the in-character nation.
Previously on Plzen. NationStates-er since 2014.

Social-democrat and hardline secularist.
Come roleplay with us. We have cookies.

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Wink Wonk We Like Stonks
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1461
Founded: May 20, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby Wink Wonk We Like Stonks » Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:55 am

Northern Socialist Council Republics wrote:The effectiveness of abstinence-only sex education really does speak for itself.

And what it says, of course, is that one can't demand that young adults not have sex and expect them to actually listen. It'll never work and people should stop trying.

abstinence-only sex ed also leads to an increase in all the things the people behind it aim to prevent (teen pregnancy, stds, abortion, etc.)
bad reply? a random criminal/civilian will be sent to Capitalist Gulags of Alabama. To date, 57+ have been sent. stonks for apotheosis 2024
pronouns: ambivalent
schrodinger's: gay
ideology:
according to legend, i once wrote:agender mars-colony automated decadent libertarian anti-statist degrowth
hotel: honestly i prefer airbnb due to the immersiveness [size=85]of the travel experience, in this essay i will-
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Stellar Colonies
Minister
 
Posts: 2403
Founded: Mar 27, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Stellar Colonies » Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:55 am

Northern Socialist Council Republics wrote:The effectiveness of abstinence-only sex education really does speak for itself.

And what it says, of course, is that one can't demand that young adults not have sex and expect them to actually listen. It'll never work and people should stop trying.

Yeah, most will do it anyway.

Some won't, but many if not most will.

Wink Wonk We Like Stonks wrote:
Northern Socialist Council Republics wrote:The effectiveness of abstinence-only sex education really does speak for itself.

And what it says, of course, is that one can't demand that young adults not have sex and expect them to actually listen. It'll never work and people should stop trying.

abstinence-only sex ed also leads to an increase in all the things the people behind it aim to prevent (teen pregnancy, stds, abortion, etc.)

Yea.
Last edited by Stellar Colonies on Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
357 days since local 'stay-at-home order' was announced

Native of The East Pacific and Northern California


Stellar Colonies is a loose confederacy comprised from most of the human-settled parts of the galaxy.

Ida Station is the only Confederate member state permitted to join the WA.
An Incomplete List of Ida's Interpretations of WA Resolutions

Add 3000 years for the date I use.
If you want a mental image of me: Straight(?), white male.

I try to be objective, but I do have some biases.

I don't think the political compass is
fully accurate, but here are my results:

X-Axis: -5.38
Y-Axis: -2.62

Also, I'm diagnosed as a high-functioning autistic.

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Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34877
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:30 pm

read your own damn sources
Bahia Roja wrote:I think Kowani shared that news a few hours ago.
Kowáni's big list of sources, Be Kowáni for a day!
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Borderlands of Rojava
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10767
Founded: Jul 27, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Borderlands of Rojava » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:10 am

Northern Socialist Council Republics wrote:The effectiveness of abstinence-only sex education really does speak for itself.

And what it says, of course, is that one can't demand that young adults not have sex and expect them to actually listen. It'll never work and people should stop trying.


I wonder when my old school district will come out of the year 1959. Probably never, but we gotta end abstinence only education. It's a threat to the safety of teens. Tell the religious folks that public school is a secular space and your religious values have no place in it and aren't welcome.
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"The devil is out there. Hiding behind every corner and in every nook and cranny. In all of the dives, all over the city. Before you lays an entire world of enemies, and at day's end when the chips are down, we're a society of strangers. You cant walk by someone on the street anymore without crossing the road to get away from their stare. Welcome to the Twilight Zone. The land of plague and shadow. Nothing innocent survives this world. If it can't corrupt you, it'll kill you."

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Suriyanakhon
Diplomat
 
Posts: 952
Founded: Apr 27, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Suriyanakhon » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:16 am

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
Northern Socialist Council Republics wrote:The effectiveness of abstinence-only sex education really does speak for itself.

And what it says, of course, is that one can't demand that young adults not have sex and expect them to actually listen. It'll never work and people should stop trying.


I wonder when my old school district will come out of the year 1959. Probably never, but we gotta end abstinence only education. It's a threat to the safety of teens. Tell the religious folks that public school is a secular space and your religious values have no place in it and aren't welcome.


I don't know why you think that's going to convince people.
Liblefter & Theravada Buddhist
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Suomalainem
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 15
Founded: Dec 27, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby Suomalainem » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:40 am

BRO WTF STOP IGNORING ME

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Wink Wonk We Like Stonks
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Posts: 1461
Founded: May 20, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby Wink Wonk We Like Stonks » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:41 am

Suomalainem wrote:BRO WTF STOP IGNORING ME

wrong thread???
bad reply? a random criminal/civilian will be sent to Capitalist Gulags of Alabama. To date, 57+ have been sent. stonks for apotheosis 2024
pronouns: ambivalent
schrodinger's: gay
ideology:
according to legend, i once wrote:agender mars-colony automated decadent libertarian anti-statist degrowth
hotel: honestly i prefer airbnb due to the immersiveness [size=85]of the travel experience, in this essay i will-
nsg's resident bamboo apologist

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Wink Wonk We Like Stonks
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Posts: 1461
Founded: May 20, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby Wink Wonk We Like Stonks » Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:43 am

Suriyanakhon wrote:
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
I wonder when my old school district will come out of the year 1959. Probably never, but we gotta end abstinence-only education. It's a threat to the safety of teens. Tell the religious folks that public school is a secular space and your religious values have no place in it and aren't welcome.


I don't know why you think that's going to convince people.

a better way to say it is that religious values shouldn't be enforced in public schools, seeing as how they are government institutions and separation of church and state is a thing
bad reply? a random criminal/civilian will be sent to Capitalist Gulags of Alabama. To date, 57+ have been sent. stonks for apotheosis 2024
pronouns: ambivalent
schrodinger's: gay
ideology:
according to legend, i once wrote:agender mars-colony automated decadent libertarian anti-statist degrowth
hotel: honestly i prefer airbnb due to the immersiveness [size=85]of the travel experience, in this essay i will-
nsg's resident bamboo apologist

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Suriyanakhon
Diplomat
 
Posts: 952
Founded: Apr 27, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Suriyanakhon » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:04 am

Wink Wonk We Like Stonks wrote:
Suriyanakhon wrote:
I don't know why you think that's going to convince people.

a better way to say it is that religious values shouldn't be enforced in public schools, seeing as how they are government institutions and separation of church and state is a thing


If someone believes that Almighty God or whatever else they worship has given them a commandment that they have to fulfill, telling them that secularism is more important isn't going to convince them.
Liblefter & Theravada Buddhist
dO yOu LiStEn tO gIrL iN rEd

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Northern Socialist Council Republics
Diplomat
 
Posts: 767
Founded: Dec 13, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Northern Socialist Council Republics » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:18 am

Suriyanakhon wrote:If someone believes that Almighty God or whatever else they worship has given them a commandment that they have to fulfill, telling them that secularism is more important isn't going to convince them.

The only viable long-term solution is the dissolution of conservative religious faiths, really. Two fundamentally different approaches to the nature of ethics and of reality cannot meaningfully coexist in peace.

Secularists can struggle to get God out of our schools, legislatures, hospitals, and courtrooms, but whatever progress is made will always be under threat of reversion as long as people continue to be superstitious.
Call me "Russ" if you're referring to me the out-of-character poster or "NSRS" if you're referring to me the in-character nation.
Previously on Plzen. NationStates-er since 2014.

Social-democrat and hardline secularist.
Come roleplay with us. We have cookies.

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Adamede
Minister
 
Posts: 2590
Founded: Jul 22, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Adamede » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:20 am

Northern Socialist Council Republics wrote:
Suriyanakhon wrote:If someone believes that Almighty God or whatever else they worship has given them a commandment that they have to fulfill, telling them that secularism is more important isn't going to convince them.

The only viable long-term solution is the dissolution of conservative religious faiths, really. Two fundamentally different approaches to the nature of ethics and of reality cannot meaningfully coexist in peace.

Secularists can struggle to get God out of our schools, legislatures, hospitals, and courtrooms, but whatever progress is made will always be under threat of reversion as long as people continue to be superstitious.

Good luck with that.
21yo American male. Political beliefs lean classical liberal/libertarian. Like most everyone else my opinions are garbage.

Pro: Democracy, 1st & 2nd Amendments, Science, Conservation, Nuclear, universal healthcare, Equality regardless of race, creed, or sexual orientation.
Neutral : Feminism, anarchism
Anti: Left and Right wing authoritarianism, religious extremists & theocracy, monarchy, nanny & surveillance states

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Northern Socialist Council Republics
Diplomat
 
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Founded: Dec 13, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Northern Socialist Council Republics » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:22 am

Adamede wrote:Good luck with that.

Yeah... the scope of the necessary task is truly breathtaking and the means available, utterly ineffective.

Saying that something needs to be done is way easier than finding out how it is to be done.
Call me "Russ" if you're referring to me the out-of-character poster or "NSRS" if you're referring to me the in-character nation.
Previously on Plzen. NationStates-er since 2014.

Social-democrat and hardline secularist.
Come roleplay with us. We have cookies.

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Stellar Colonies
Minister
 
Posts: 2403
Founded: Mar 27, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Stellar Colonies » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:23 am

Conservative religious beliefs don't necessarily need to be dissolved (that's violating their religious rights), but human rights (free belief, bodily autonomy, etc.) should take precedence by default.
Last edited by Stellar Colonies on Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
357 days since local 'stay-at-home order' was announced

Native of The East Pacific and Northern California


Stellar Colonies is a loose confederacy comprised from most of the human-settled parts of the galaxy.

Ida Station is the only Confederate member state permitted to join the WA.
An Incomplete List of Ida's Interpretations of WA Resolutions

Add 3000 years for the date I use.
If you want a mental image of me: Straight(?), white male.

I try to be objective, but I do have some biases.

I don't think the political compass is
fully accurate, but here are my results:

X-Axis: -5.38
Y-Axis: -2.62

Also, I'm diagnosed as a high-functioning autistic.

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The Blaatschapen
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 58096
Founded: Antiquity
Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:24 am

Suriyanakhon wrote:
Wink Wonk We Like Stonks wrote:a better way to say it is that religious values shouldn't be enforced in public schools, seeing as how they are government institutions and separation of church and state is a thing


If someone believes that Almighty God or whatever else they worship has given them a commandment that they have to fulfill, telling them that secularism is more important isn't going to convince them.


They can go to a private school.

Or you know, get the government to agree to fund religious schools in exchange for universal suffrage. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacification_of_1917
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Northern Socialist Council Republics
Diplomat
 
Posts: 767
Founded: Dec 13, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Northern Socialist Council Republics » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:35 am

Stellar Colonies wrote:Conservative religious beliefs don't necessarily need to be dissolved (that's violating their religious rights), but human rights (free belief, bodily autonomy, etc.) should take precedence by default.

Religious people will never truly accept that. No secular principle is safe from attack as long as religious people, who by definition serve higher religious principles, exist.



The Blaatschapen wrote:They can go to a private school.

Or you know, get the government to agree to fund religious schools in exchange for universal suffrage. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacification_of_1917

That compromise was very much a compromise, not some kind of brilliant synergetic solution, and from everything I hear about it that decision is haunting the Dutch school system a hundred years on.
Call me "Russ" if you're referring to me the out-of-character poster or "NSRS" if you're referring to me the in-character nation.
Previously on Plzen. NationStates-er since 2014.

Social-democrat and hardline secularist.
Come roleplay with us. We have cookies.

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Suriyanakhon
Diplomat
 
Posts: 952
Founded: Apr 27, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Suriyanakhon » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:48 am

Northern Socialist Council Republics wrote:
Suriyanakhon wrote:If someone believes that Almighty God or whatever else they worship has given them a commandment that they have to fulfill, telling them that secularism is more important isn't going to convince them.

The only viable long-term solution is the dissolution of conservative religious faiths, really. Two fundamentally different approaches to the nature of ethics and of reality cannot meaningfully coexist in peace.

Secularists can struggle to get God out of our schools, legislatures, hospitals, and courtrooms, but whatever progress is made will always be under threat of reversion as long as people continue to be superstitious.


Good luck, we've beaten the Hindus, the Chinese, the missionaries, and the socialists, I think we can take you too. :p
Liblefter & Theravada Buddhist
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Crilland
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 52
Founded: Jun 15, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Crilland » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:55 am

Northern Socialist Council Republics wrote:
Suriyanakhon wrote:If someone believes that Almighty God or whatever else they worship has given them a commandment that they have to fulfill, telling them that secularism is more important isn't going to convince them.

The only viable long-term solution is the dissolution of conservative religious faiths, really. Two fundamentally different approaches to the nature of ethics and of reality cannot meaningfully coexist in peace.

Secularists can struggle to get God out of our schools, legislatures, hospitals, and courtrooms, but whatever progress is made will always be under threat of reversion as long as people continue to be superstitious.

if youre anti-secular we need secularism because you dont want god to be your only study in school and youll be blinded by some religous malarkey about god or some other stuff

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Bienenhalde
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5737
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Bienenhalde » Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:15 am

Wink Wonk We Like Stonks wrote:abstinence-only sex ed also leads to an increase in all the things the people behind it aim to prevent (teen pregnancy, stds, abortion, etc.)


If teenagers get STDs from not being abstinent, then they have nobody to blame but themselves.
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https://8values.github.io/results.html?e=75.6&d=68.6&g=38.8&s=45.2
OOC:
[*]Age: 24 [*]Pennsylvania Dutch [*]ELCA Lutheran [*]Male [*]Bisexual - leaning towards gay [*]Independent [*]Sinophile-Japanophile [*]Monarchist [*]Has Asperger's

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Adamede
Minister
 
Posts: 2590
Founded: Jul 22, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Adamede » Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:18 am

Bienenhalde wrote:
Wink Wonk We Like Stonks wrote:abstinence-only sex ed also leads to an increase in all the things the people behind it aim to prevent (teen pregnancy, stds, abortion, etc.)


If teenagers get STDs from not being abstinent, then they have nobody to blame but themselves.

Or we could have sex Ed teach them how to have safe sex.
Last edited by Adamede on Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
21yo American male. Political beliefs lean classical liberal/libertarian. Like most everyone else my opinions are garbage.

Pro: Democracy, 1st & 2nd Amendments, Science, Conservation, Nuclear, universal healthcare, Equality regardless of race, creed, or sexual orientation.
Neutral : Feminism, anarchism
Anti: Left and Right wing authoritarianism, religious extremists & theocracy, monarchy, nanny & surveillance states

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Bienenhalde
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5737
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Bienenhalde » Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:20 am

Adamede wrote:
Bienenhalde wrote:
If teenagers get STDs from not being abstinent, then they have nobody to blame but themselves.

Or we can’t have sex Ed teach them how to have safe sex.


Well, trying to prevent unwanted pregnancies is reasonable, but we shouldn't be encouraging them to be sexually active.
Bienenhalde (mostly) represents my real political views.
https://8values.github.io/results.html?e=75.6&d=68.6&g=38.8&s=45.2
OOC:
[*]Age: 24 [*]Pennsylvania Dutch [*]ELCA Lutheran [*]Male [*]Bisexual - leaning towards gay [*]Independent [*]Sinophile-Japanophile [*]Monarchist [*]Has Asperger's

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Northern Socialist Council Republics
Diplomat
 
Posts: 767
Founded: Dec 13, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Northern Socialist Council Republics » Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:25 am

Bienenhalde wrote:Well, trying to prevent unwanted pregnancies is reasonable, but we shouldn't be encouraging them to be sexually active.

So it is more important to you that teens feel that their sexual activity is not going to be socially accepted, than it is that teens do not end up having to be a single parent or go through abortion.

I must confess that this set of priorities fails to move me much. Why is it a bad thing if the educational system and society as a whole considers it normal for teenagers to be sexually active?
Call me "Russ" if you're referring to me the out-of-character poster or "NSRS" if you're referring to me the in-character nation.
Previously on Plzen. NationStates-er since 2014.

Social-democrat and hardline secularist.
Come roleplay with us. We have cookies.

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Bienenhalde
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5737
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Bienenhalde » Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:28 am

Northern Socialist Council Republics wrote:
Bienenhalde wrote:Well, trying to prevent unwanted pregnancies is reasonable, but we shouldn't be encouraging them to be sexually active.

So it is more important to you that teens feel that their sexual activity is not going to be socially accepted, than it is that teens do not end up having to be a single parent or go through abortion.

Well, I would rather than teens used contraceptives or condoms to prevent unwanted pregnancies. But if they get STDs, they are necessarily hurting anyone but themselves, so I don't know why that should concern me.
Bienenhalde (mostly) represents my real political views.
https://8values.github.io/results.html?e=75.6&d=68.6&g=38.8&s=45.2
OOC:
[*]Age: 24 [*]Pennsylvania Dutch [*]ELCA Lutheran [*]Male [*]Bisexual - leaning towards gay [*]Independent [*]Sinophile-Japanophile [*]Monarchist [*]Has Asperger's

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Adamede
Minister
 
Posts: 2590
Founded: Jul 22, 2020
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Adamede » Fri Jan 22, 2021 11:34 am

Bienenhalde wrote:
Adamede wrote:Or we can’t have sex Ed teach them how to have safe sex.


Well, trying to prevent unwanted pregnancies is reasonable, but we shouldn't be encouraging them to be sexually active.

There’s no need to encourage that, humans naturally are.
21yo American male. Political beliefs lean classical liberal/libertarian. Like most everyone else my opinions are garbage.

Pro: Democracy, 1st & 2nd Amendments, Science, Conservation, Nuclear, universal healthcare, Equality regardless of race, creed, or sexual orientation.
Neutral : Feminism, anarchism
Anti: Left and Right wing authoritarianism, religious extremists & theocracy, monarchy, nanny & surveillance states

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