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The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Esternial
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Esternial » Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:41 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Esternial wrote:Not sure what takeaway to make that the default thought goes to homosexual flirting there...

I'd assume they'd want to talk about something to me in private for whatever reason. Dudes talk to dudes, too.

Generally when someone tries to isolate and talk to me with a pretext it's about mashing our parts together. Platonic talking usually facilitated by "hey I want to talk to you."

Either you've been in a lot of misunderstandings or Europeans just have more complex social interactions...

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Adamede
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Adamede » Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:54 pm

Des-Bal wrote:If we're talking about knightly chivalry being merciless to infidels is more important than being nice to ladies.

In the modern conception chivalry is all about how you treat women. How does the duty of men to protect women mesh with feminism?

Recently a woman decided I was going to walk her to her car because it was late. She asked me this despite the female security guard being present. Now any time you approach me with a question at work my internal response is "I'm tired, I'm busy, and I wouldn't care if you died" but a combination of diplomacy and cowardice usually softens it, in this case it softened it all the way to "Yeah sure." I thought about it some and if a woman requests or appears to need help in order to be safe my instinct is to render aid.

That got me thinking about a news story wherein a butch lesbian was badly beaten and nobody helped her. She claimed to the news that if she had been more feminine people would have helped, and that this was the result of bigotry.

If a man asked me to walk him to his car I would probably treat it as homosexual flirting because the alternative that a man feels to walk a short distance alone in the dark would make me think less of him. If I see a man getting hassled or even getting his ass kicked I'm walking the fuck away, but I'd 100% jump in on a woman's behalf even if it looks dicey.

In that light was the woman in the article a victim of apathy towards nonconforming women or did she just find herself unable to reap the benefits associated with the gender role she chose to eschew?

I don't know if women are aware of how much they expect or even rely on chivalry even if they may view it as sexist.

Truly a virtuous knight of our era.

Also what the fuck is your sex life like?
Last edited by Adamede on Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:02 pm

Adamede wrote:Truly a virtuous knight of our era.

Also what the fuck is your sex life like?


I'm too merciful to infidels.

Do other people just constantly get asked to do private things that make no sense, and if so why do you agree?
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New haven america
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:02 pm

Des-Bal wrote:If we're talking about knightly chivalry being merciless to infidels is more important than being nice to ladies.

In the modern conception chivalry is all about how you treat women. How does the duty of men to protect women mesh with feminism?

Recently a woman decided I was going to walk her to her car because it was late. She asked me this despite the female security guard being present. Now any time you approach me with a question at work my internal response is "I'm tired, I'm busy, and I wouldn't care if you died" but a combination of diplomacy and cowardice usually softens it, in this case it softened it all the way to "Yeah sure." I thought about it some and if a woman requests or appears to need help in order to be safe my instinct is to render aid.

That got me thinking about a news story wherein a butch lesbian was badly beaten and nobody helped her. She claimed to the news that if she had been more feminine people would have helped, and that this was the result of bigotry.

If a man asked me to walk him to his car I would probably treat it as homosexual flirting because the alternative that a man feels to walk a short distance alone in the dark would make me think less of him. If I see a man getting hassled or even getting his ass kicked I'm walking the fuck away, but I'd 100% jump in on a woman's behalf even if it looks dicey.

In that light was the woman in the article a victim of apathy towards nonconforming women or did she just find herself unable to reap the benefits associated with the gender role she chose to eschew?

I don't know if women are aware of how much they expect or even rely on chivalry even if they may view it as sexist.

Why?
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Adamede
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Adamede » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:03 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Adamede wrote:Truly a virtuous knight of our era.

Also what the fuck is your sex life like?


I'm too merciful to infidels.

Do other people just constantly get asked to do private things that make no sense, and if so why do you agree?

Maybe I’m just oblivious but I don’t see how walking someone out to their car, or something else inane works out to “let’s fuck”.
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:08 pm

Adamede wrote:Maybe I’m just oblivious but I don’t see how walking someone out to their car, or something else inane works out to “let’s fuck”.


Are you flirting by saying "let's fuck?"
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:09 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
Adamede wrote:Maybe I’m just oblivious but I don’t see how walking someone out to their car, or something else inane works out to “let’s fuck”.


Are you flirting by saying "let's fuck?"

Bad flirting but sure, why not.
Last edited by Adamede on Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pro: Democracy, 1st & 2nd Amendments, Science, Conservation, Nuclear, universal healthcare, Equality regardless of race, creed, or sexual orientation.
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:10 pm

New haven america wrote:Why?


No rational basis, it can only be sexist. I would do it even if the woman was larger and stronger than me and I'd still look at it as weird if the guy was smaller, weaker or even disabled.
Cekoviu wrote:DES-BAL: Introverted, blunt, focused, utilitarian. Hard to read; not verbose online or likely in real life. Places little emphasis on interpersonal relationships, particularly with online strangers for whom the investment would outweigh the returns.
Desired perception: Logical, intellectual
Public perception: Neutral-positive - blunt, cold, logical, skilled at debating
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New haven america
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:14 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
New haven america wrote:Why?


No rational basis, it can only be sexist. I would do it even if the woman was larger and stronger than me and I'd still look at it as weird if the guy was smaller, weaker or even disabled.

No, why do you think they'd want to fuck you so badly they'd do it in a car or without any game plan?

Sex for gay men takes a lot of prep work, there's no real such thing as spontaneity there.
Last edited by New haven america on Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:18 pm

New haven america wrote:No, why do you think they'd want to fuck you so badly they'd do it in a car?

Sex for gay men takes a lot of prep work.


Is flirting slang for a sex act now? Why did two people assume 'flirting' meant 'fucking in a car?'
Cekoviu wrote:DES-BAL: Introverted, blunt, focused, utilitarian. Hard to read; not verbose online or likely in real life. Places little emphasis on interpersonal relationships, particularly with online strangers for whom the investment would outweigh the returns.
Desired perception: Logical, intellectual
Public perception: Neutral-positive - blunt, cold, logical, skilled at debating
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New haven america
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:21 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
New haven america wrote:No, why do you think they'd want to fuck you so badly they'd do it in a car?

Sex for gay men takes a lot of prep work.


1. Is flirting slang for a sex act now? 2. Why did two people assume 'flirting' meant 'fucking in a car?'

1. Can be, yeah.
2. If someone's interested in you then chances are they want some fuck at some point. No it doesn't mean it has to be in a car, but in the majority of romantic relationships it's probably gonna happen down the line.
Last edited by New haven america on Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:26 pm

Honestly des-bal I doubt you would think that if it actually occurred, especially if the rest of the interaction was lacking in signals of sexual interest. In the context of sexual interest being signalled prior, yes, I agree with you, it would be a means of playing the flirting game.
Absent that;
"Walk me to my car mate? There's been some muggings around here.".

Perfectly reasonable request, and two are obviously safer than one purely as a matter of detterence.

There might be some question as to why you should take on the burden of walking back even further alone, and thinking of that says a lot about the way women ask this of men and their lack of consideration for mens safety and wellbeing (Especially given that most targets of crime are men), but in all honesty I cannot imagine a man asking this without offering you a lift for precisely that reason and the assumption that your safety is also important that women all too often give zero consideration to as a result of viewing you in terms of your utility, not your humanity.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:28 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:28 pm

New haven america wrote:1. Can be, yeah.
2. If someone's interested in you then chance are they want some fuck. No it doesn't mean it has to be in a car, but in the majority of romantic relationships it's probably gonna happen down the line.


How many seconds do you think the line is? I was talking about any conduct to indicate non-platonic interest, or openness to such conduct, in a work setting. Like at absolute most a shoulder touch you jumped straight into making sure there was lube handy.
Cekoviu wrote:DES-BAL: Introverted, blunt, focused, utilitarian. Hard to read; not verbose online or likely in real life. Places little emphasis on interpersonal relationships, particularly with online strangers for whom the investment would outweigh the returns.
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Public perception: Neutral-positive - blunt, cold, logical, skilled at debating
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New haven america
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:34 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
New haven america wrote:1. Can be, yeah.
2. If someone's interested in you then chance are they want some fuck. No it doesn't mean it has to be in a car, but in the majority of romantic relationships it's probably gonna happen down the line.


How many seconds do you think the line is? I was talking about any conduct to indicate non-platonic interest, or openness to such conduct, in a work setting. Like at absolute most a shoulder touch you jumped straight into making sure there was lube handy.

You literally said that you'd think they were flirting with you, which yes, does imply non-platonic interest.

Would you like your own direct quote to jog your memory?
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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:38 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:Honestly des-bal I doubt you would think that if it actually occurred, especially if the rest of the interaction was lacking in signals of sexual interest. In the context of sexual interest being signalled prior, yes, I agree with you, it would be a means of playing the flirting game.
Absent that;
"Walk me to my car mate? There's been some muggings around here.".

Perfectly reasonable request, and two are obviously safer than one purely as a matter of detterence.

There might be some question as to why you should take on the burden of walking back even further alone, and thinking of that says a lot about the way women ask this of men and their lack of consideration for mens safety and wellbeing (Especially given that most targets of crime are men), but in all honesty I cannot imagine a man asking this without offering you a lift for precisely that reason and the assumption that your safety is also important that women all too often give zero consideration to as a result of viewing you in terms of your utility, not your humanity.


In fairness this was someone I didn't really know.
If a unfamiliar man said "walk me to my car?" I would think he's about to do something to signal interest away from the office.

If he said "There's been some muggings around here" then it would clear up any assumptions and probably cause me to think less of him.

I really can't imagine asking for help getting to my car unless something severely fucked was going on very nearby. If somebody saw a bear outside a couple minutes ago then I would probably ask for help and absolutely offer a ride.
Cekoviu wrote:DES-BAL: Introverted, blunt, focused, utilitarian. Hard to read; not verbose online or likely in real life. Places little emphasis on interpersonal relationships, particularly with online strangers for whom the investment would outweigh the returns.
Desired perception: Logical, intellectual
Public perception: Neutral-positive - blunt, cold, logical, skilled at debating
Mindset: Logos

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Des-Bal
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Postby Des-Bal » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:41 pm

New haven america wrote:You literally said that you'd think they were flirting with you, which yes, does imply non-platonic interest.

Would you like your own direct quote to jog your memory?


I'm literally talking about non-platonic interest, if it clears anything up I meant I were assume they were asking to go with them so they could more comfortably begin flirting not so their flirting could culminate in us having spontaneous sex in a dark garage while I was still on the clock.
Cekoviu wrote:DES-BAL: Introverted, blunt, focused, utilitarian. Hard to read; not verbose online or likely in real life. Places little emphasis on interpersonal relationships, particularly with online strangers for whom the investment would outweigh the returns.
Desired perception: Logical, intellectual
Public perception: Neutral-positive - blunt, cold, logical, skilled at debating
Mindset: Logos

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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:48 pm

Des-Bal wrote:
New haven america wrote:No, why do you think they'd want to fuck you so badly they'd do it in a car?

Sex for gay men takes a lot of prep work.


Is flirting slang for a sex act now? Why did two people assume 'flirting' meant 'fucking in a car?'

That’s not at all what I said dude.
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Stellar Colonies
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:15 pm

To be honest, I would probably be less chivalrous in the common meaning of the word if there wasn’t that inherent expectation floating around for me to be so.
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Adamede
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Postby Adamede » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:17 pm

Stellar Colonies wrote:To be honest, I would probably be less chivalrous in the common meaning of the word if there wasn’t that inherent expectation floating around for me to be so.

Good for you
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:36 pm

Auzkhia wrote:Chivalry is literally just battle code for medieval noble warriors.

Chivalry was initiated as an ethical code to provide structure, purpose, honor, and morality to a mishmash of Germanic influenced warriors and to assimilate them into good Christian society. It has evolved quite a bit over the years as honor codes inevitably do.

Auzkhia wrote:It got twisted into benevolent sexist honor over time.

Modern chivalry extends beyond gender relations.

Auzkhia wrote:But like, what chivalry but make it feminist? And we have princess-knights lol

I would describe it as proto-feminist in the same sense as courtly love given that the alternative at the time chivalry was conceived was massacres, rape, etc. At present, it's akin to benevolent sexism in some of its manifestations, but considered sporting and decent in others.
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:44 pm

Des-Bal wrote:If we're talking about knightly chivalry being merciless to infidels is more important than being nice to ladies.

In the modern conception chivalry is all about how you treat women. How does the duty of men to protect women mesh with feminism?

I'm inclined to disagree. Lewis in his scrawlings and lectures provides us with a rather robust and inclusive definition of chivalry as it was conceived in the twentieth century and juxtaposes it against the system of morality peculiar to classical antiquity - one which emerged from Homer as exemplified by Achilleus and Homer. It does include gestures such as a man giving up his seat to a woman, but, in the same stroke, it extends to gracious behavior on sports fields, polished manners in the dining hall, and magnanimity in interactions with other persons. His fundamental assertion was that the practical abolition of democracy must needs lead to the democratization of the worthwhile aspects of their ethical codes lest we become more base, more vicious, and more arbitrary as a society as a result.

Des-Bal wrote:Recently a woman decided I was going to walk her to her car because it was late. She asked me this despite the female security guard being present. Now any time you approach me with a question at work my internal response is "I'm tired, I'm busy, and I wouldn't care if you died" but a combination of diplomacy and cowardice usually softens it, in this case it softened it all the way to "Yeah sure." I thought about it some and if a woman requests or appears to need help in order to be safe my instinct is to render aid.

That got me thinking about a news story wherein a butch lesbian was badly beaten and nobody helped her. She claimed to the news that if she had been more feminine people would have helped, and that this was the result of bigotry.

If a man asked me to walk him to his car I would probably treat it as homosexual flirting because the alternative that a man feels to walk a short distance alone in the dark would make me think less of him. If I see a man getting hassled or even getting his ass kicked I'm walking the fuck away, but I'd 100% jump in on a woman's behalf even if it looks dicey.

I'm not certain letting a man get assaulted outside a field of sport or battle is especially chivalrous in either a medieval or modern context.

Des-Bal wrote:In that light was the woman in the article a victim of apathy towards nonconforming women or did she just find herself unable to reap the benefits associated with the gender role she chose to eschew?

It sounds like she was appealing to chivalry in all honesty and the expectation society puts on men to protect women.

Des-Bal wrote:I don't know if women are aware of how much they expect or even rely on chivalry even if they may view it as sexist.

I live in the South, but attend university in New England. I'm very much aware of how prevalent chivalry is in my home state.
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Wink Wonk We Like Stonks
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Postby Wink Wonk We Like Stonks » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:09 am

wish someone would flirt with me by asking me to walk them to their car
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Postby Baloo Kingdom » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:33 am

Wink Wonk We Like Stonks wrote:wish someone would flirt with me by asking me to walk them to their car

This is the kind of person we need on NSG
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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:33 am

Well, I use chivalry in the contemporary sense of the word. I open doors for women or let her borrow my jackets if she's cold. On dates I bring flowers and pay for her meal. When we're walking on a sidewalk I'll stand closer to the street. There's just certain things that men are expected to do and I'm fine with it. It's fun. In my experience, women appreciate this behavior.
Last edited by Sundiata on Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Agarntrop » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:57 am

Des-Bal wrote:
New haven america wrote:Why?


No rational basis, it can only be sexist. I would do it even if the woman was larger and stronger than me and I'd still look at it as weird if the guy was smaller, weaker or even disabled.

This is a bizzare thing to say
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