NationStates

Posted: **Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:46 pm**

Thepeopl wrote:
Galloism wrote:That is correct - the real driver of it is who is required to be “breadwinner” in our society. Make it an equal chore, and less disparity would likely occur.

I have no idea how to accomplish this.

By paying parental leave for both parents, like Iceland.

By ignoring sex, gender and "traditional marriage". No more "gender reveal parties" no more forced gender roles.
We could adopt the Scandinavian "non gender" schools.
We could make it mandatory that everyone learn how to cook, clean, repair electrical sockets, etc.

Let's dismantle the hold big corporations have over people. It is sickening that a lot of people don't have enough income to live comfortably with 1 job.

This is coming purely from anecdotes now, but I've heard from people in those countries that it's not enough to give both parents paternity leave, but to require that they both take leave as well. Otherwise, often, you still get a disparity as many fathers simply choose not to take the leave. I can understand why some might find that iffy, but it's ultimately no more authoritarian than any other mandatory vacation your job might put on you.

Posted: **Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:50 pm**

Giovenith wrote:
Thepeopl wrote:By paying parental leave for both parents, like Iceland.

By ignoring sex, gender and "traditional marriage". No more "gender reveal parties" no more forced gender roles.
We could adopt the Scandinavian "non gender" schools.
We could make it mandatory that everyone learn how to cook, clean, repair electrical sockets, etc.

Let's dismantle the hold big corporations have over people. It is sickening that a lot of people don't have enough income to live comfortably with 1 job.

This is coming purely from anecdotes now, but I've heard from people in those countries that it's not enough to give both parents paternity leave, but to require that they both take leave as well. Otherwise, often, you still get a disparity as many fathers simply choose not to take the leave. I can understand why some might find that iffy, but it's ultimately no more authoritarian than any other mandatory vacation your job might put on you.

Choose is a funny word here - because men are actually disproportionately punished by employers for taking leave, even when it’s legally available, compared with women.

I hate forcing such things, but much like California found “you must provide lunch breaks” to be insufficient (mandating employees must take them as a result of employers pressuring employees not to take them), we may have to do similar with paternal leave.

But even still, that probably wouldn’t fix the disparity, given such countries are actually more disparate in outcomes than other less progressive countries (including those that offer no paid leave at all to anyone).

Posted: **Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:50 pm**

Giovenith wrote:
This is coming purely from anecdotes now, but I've heard from people in those countries that it's not enough to give both parents paternity leave, but to require that they both take leave as well. Otherwise, often, you still get a disparity as many fathers simply choose not to take the leave. I can understand why some might find that iffy, but it's ultimately no more authoritarian than any other mandatory vacation your job might put on you.

At a certain point why not force women to work jobs they don't want? If we're shitting on people's ability to exercise choice aren't we sort of losing the plot?

Posted: **Tue Aug 11, 2020 3:56 pm**

Des-Bal wrote:
Giovenith wrote:
This is coming purely from anecdotes now, but I've heard from people in those countries that it's not enough to give both parents paternity leave, but to require that they both take leave as well. Otherwise, often, you still get a disparity as many fathers simply choose not to take the leave. I can understand why some might find that iffy, but it's ultimately no more authoritarian than any other mandatory vacation your job might put on you.

At a certain point why not force women to work jobs they don't want? If we're shitting on people's ability to exercise choice aren't we sort of losing the plot?

Hence why I said it's iffy. Keep in mind when it comes to workplace dynamics, a lot can go of factors can go into these things, especially when the companies and industries could possibly be held liable for the results.

Posted: **Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:58 pm**

As a genderfluid person I can see both sides of the problems here.

Patriarchal conservatism has ruined both men and women and frankly set them against each other in many ways. I am a very... What's the word. Romantic person? I see a lot of things in terms of relationships, platonic and otherwise, as someone who has been in a lot of relationships with both men and women, as male and female.

I have a darling boyfriend and up until recently we had a girlfriend and we were in a poly relationship for a bit... We had to break up due to an unrelated reason...

We all grew up in abusive households, we all had fraught love lives, we had many things in common, we shared a lot. They are both lovely people.

He is very insecure in his masculinity but in a positive way in that he wishes he could be less masculine... Sadly, he is a hairy beautiful ball of muscles and beards so :lol:

I try my hardest to make him feel secure in both ways, since I think he never had anybody to reassure that part of him. He had very few romantic relationships, his longest one ending in his female fiance cheating on him.

She was bubbly and she laughed at all my jokes, bad as they would be. She was very physically attractive but she was also my political lover, since my boyfriend is very apolitical. We marched together, we protested together, and when we got home I would ask her questions to prod her politics that went beyond just her race and her gender. She survived an abusive husband, and IMO she abused her next boyfriend... My friends suspected she might have fathered his child illegitimately, considering how vague she was about why she broke up with him.

Loving them side by side made me realize just how similar we all were and yet how different we all had to be to become so similar, and it made comparing them easy, but also impossible. I loved them equally... He could live without her :lol:

But they were very good friends. At the end of the day, respect and love are what allowed us to dominate our problems, ending only when respect wasn't the issue.

Perhaps it was a failure on my/our part when we just couldn't accept her... Uniqueness. Our friends disagreed, especially considering her other traits, but I do feel like I failed her in part.

But quite frankly I don't know how or if I could have made her more... Not equal but to feel like she belonged with us as an equal. Would that even have helped? She was most certainly our equal until... The weird stuff.

She was more needy and more demanding than him, which was fine, everybody needs attention, and he is very busy with his work so I welcomed her attention-seeking... But eventually it got to be too much.

---

... In conclusion, feminism is extremely easy but also extremely complex. IMO it isn't just women's rights, it concerns all of us and the standard of how we treat ourselves fairly, but I am unsure about how we go about including men and whether women should be excluded from the opposite, and vice versa.

I think it's good that women pursue their own interests, as women, separate and independent, but at the end of the day, can there be such a thing as total independence between the sexes? Would we WANT to be totally independent and separable? IMO, the love between all human beings, men, women, whatever, is what makes us human, what makes us good.

IMO, I adore the company of men and women alike and very much prefer if we all participated in the same stuff together. For example... Video gaming is very male-centric... Too much so. Whenever I hear a female voice it's bizarre how refreshing it is in the ocean of timbre and baritone... And all too often, they disappear because the other men notice it too, and instead of just thanking God for some diversity, they immediately covet, comment, or revolt upon it, because they don't see that girl as a person, they see her as a girlfriend or a novelty or an intruder.

Not to say I probably don't have my own prejudices against both men and women, I most certainly do, but people should just treat each other with kindness.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:28 pm**

Stellar Colonies wrote:
Sundiata wrote:That thread proposing female genocide was pretty sickening to read.

The opening post and everything else by the author was erased before I happened upon the thread, but the snippets that survived in posts quoting them were pretty nasty, like a reversed SCUM Manifesto.

ugh

What’s wrong with the scum manifesto?

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:38 pm**

Des-Bal wrote:Are there biological differences between men and women?

If men and women are disposed as a matter of biology to certain career paths is a gender imbalance justifiable?

If men and women are not disposed as a matter of biology to certain career paths why is it not possible to draw a line betwixt gender equality and more equal distribution within career paths?

No.

They aren’t, so the point is moot.

Because equality is not merely representation.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:59 pm**

Greater Malegron wrote:
Stellar Colonies wrote:The opening post and everything else by the author was erased before I happened upon the thread, but the snippets that survived in posts quoting them were pretty nasty, like a reversed SCUM Manifesto.

ugh

What’s wrong with the scum manifesto?

Um, it calls for the literal extermination of all men.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:01 pm**

The Reformed American Republic wrote:
Greater Malegron wrote:What’s wrong with the scum manifesto?

Um, it calls for the literal extermination of all men.

What’s a little gendercide between friends.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:02 pm**

The Reformed American Republic wrote:
Greater Malegron wrote:What’s wrong with the scum manifesto?

Um, it calls for the literal extermination of all men.

Something gives me the feeling Malegron doesn’t see that as a problem.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:05 pm**

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:
The Reformed American Republic wrote:Um, it calls for the literal extermination of all men.

Something gives me the feeling Malegron doesn’t see that as a problem.

You're right.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:05 pm**

Galloism wrote:
The Reformed American Republic wrote:Um, it calls for the literal extermination of all men.

What’s a little gendercide between friends.

To play devils advocate for the devil’s evil twin, considering there are people calling for the extermination of all women, it sounds justified. If you’re completely batshit. I say this as somebody who a few years ago would have considered the SCUM manifesto an instruction manual and still has to come to grips with that dark past. So yes, it’s a bit personal to me.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:06 pm**

The Reformed American Republic wrote:
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:Something gives me the feeling Malegron doesn’t see that as a problem.

You're right.

I’ve clashed with Malegron in the past. They tend to make themselves scarce most of the time though, so I manage.

Posted: **Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:11 pm**

It irks me that nobody seems to lift a finger against such rhetoric. Which is especially bad as this rhetoric starts to gain traction and starts seeping it’s way into laws and societal trends. But they still call me a paranoid fool. (Which admittedly, is partially true.)

Posted: **Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:58 am**

Greater Malegron wrote:What’s wrong with the scum manifesto?

While this in of itself feels borderline, your past history and track record makes me believe that this is leaning towards trolling. Take a *** 24-hour ban for Trolling ***. Note that this applies to you the player and not just this nation.

Posted: **Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:19 pm**

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:It irks me that nobody seems to lift a finger against such rhetoric. Which is especially bad as this rhetoric starts to gain traction and starts seeping it’s way into laws and societal trends. But they still call me a paranoid fool. (Which admittedly, is partially true.)

I think people respond with mockery because this rhetoric is not gaining traction. Outside of a few creepy echo chambers anyone suggesting the slaughter of half the population is viewed at best as a maniac.

Posted: **Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:54 pm**

Des-Bal wrote:
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:It irks me that nobody seems to lift a finger against such rhetoric. Which is especially bad as this rhetoric starts to gain traction and starts seeping it’s way into laws and societal trends. But they still call me a paranoid fool. (Which admittedly, is partially true.)

I think people respond with mockery because this rhetoric is not gaining traction. Outside of a few creepy echo chambers anyone suggesting the slaughter of half the population is viewed at best as a maniac.

Hell, Nazis have better success rates than those people, and they have a massive PR penalty.

Posted: **Sun Aug 16, 2020 12:01 am**

...well then.

Posted: **Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:48 am**

Will it be alright for you to add Andy's Man Club to the list of resources for Men's Health, Victim Assistance, Suicide Prevention?
It's a an amazing UK charity that help men from all walks of life come together and talk about their emotions and feelings over various concerns and problems, using the motto "It's okay to talk".

Posted: **Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:18 am**

Celritannia wrote:Will it be alright for you to add Andy's Man Club to the list of resources for Men's Health, Victim Assistance, Suicide Prevention?
It's a an amazing UK charity that help men from all walks of life come together and talk about their emotions and feelings over various concerns and problems, using the motto "It's okay to talk".

It really is OK to talk.

My boyfriend thinks keeping your emotions bottled up is healthy, but it's clear he knows he's in the wrong... If only people were so quick to abandon their foolishness.

To be fair though, Malegron appears to be a radical, racist feminist so clearly I have no idea how illogical this shit can get.

Posted: **Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:44 am**

The Rich Port wrote:
Celritannia wrote:Will it be alright for you to add Andy's Man Club to the list of resources for Men's Health, Victim Assistance, Suicide Prevention?
It's a an amazing UK charity that help men from all walks of life come together and talk about their emotions and feelings over various concerns and problems, using the motto "It's okay to talk".

It really is OK to talk.

My boyfriend thinks keeping your emotions bottled up is healthy, but it's clear he knows he's in the wrong... If only people were so quick to abandon their foolishness.

To be fair though, Malegron appears to be a radical, racist feminist so clearly I have no idea how illogical this shit can get.

Agreed. I'm not sure why it's still the common theme where men should keep their feeling bottled up.
But from what I know of this charity, and a friend who has been to meetings, they are amazing at have confidential, and open meetings for their members.

Posted: **Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:44 am**

The Rich Port wrote:
Celritannia wrote:Will it be alright for you to add Andy's Man Club to the list of resources for Men's Health, Victim Assistance, Suicide Prevention?
It's a an amazing UK charity that help men from all walks of life come together and talk about their emotions and feelings over various concerns and problems, using the motto "It's okay to talk".

It really is OK to talk.

My boyfriend thinks keeping your emotions bottled up is healthy, but it's clear he knows he's in the wrong... If only people were so quick to abandon their foolishness.

To be fair though, Malegron appears to be a radical, racist feminist so clearly I have no idea how illogical this shit can get.

You have a boyfriend and he's a radical racist feminist and his name is Malegron?

There is so much I gotta unpack there.

Posted: **Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:53 am**

Celritannia wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
It really is OK to talk.

My boyfriend thinks keeping your emotions bottled up is healthy, but it's clear he knows he's in the wrong... If only people were so quick to abandon their foolishness.

To be fair though, Malegron appears to be a radical, racist feminist so clearly I have no idea how illogical this shit can get.

Agreed. I'm not sure why it's still the common theme where men should keep their feeling bottled up.
But from what I know of this charity, and a friend who has been to meetings, they are amazing at have confidential, and open meetings for their members.

It's a shame the Manosphere has monopolized "men's rights". Maybe I should start something similar up.

Borderlands of Rojava wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:
It really is OK to talk.

My boyfriend thinks keeping your emotions bottled up is healthy, but it's clear he knows he's in the wrong... If only people were so quick to abandon their foolishness.

To be fair though, Malegron appears to be a radical, racist feminist so clearly I have no idea how illogical this shit can get.

You have a boyfriend and he's a radical racist feminist and his name is Malegron?

There is so much I gotta unpack there.

har har

Posted: **Sun Aug 16, 2020 6:55 am**

The Rich Port wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
Agreed. I'm not sure why it's still the common theme where men should keep their feeling bottled up.
But from what I know of this charity, and a friend who has been to meetings, they are amazing at have confidential, and open meetings for their members.

It's a shame the Manosphere has monopolized "men's rights". Maybe I should start something similar up.

It would be something I would gladly support.

Posted: **Sun Aug 16, 2020 7:07 am**

The manosphere has got to be one of the worst things to ever happen in this century. I swear, these guys really think women are uniquely wicked creatures and all think alike and then they wonder why people dont respect them.

You got the incels who complain about not getting laid. The MGTOWs, pretending that they chose to not get laid when in reality a supermajority of them are probably just hiding that they're incels, and the MRAs who think paying for a prostitute in Bangkok means you're the shit. They try their same "pick up tricks" in the United States and half the time it ends with them leaving the bar with a shotglass embedded several feet into their face. Not only are they offensive as hell with their beliefs, but they genuinely are disappointing to even look at. Women do not all think the same, are not all monsters, and won't all fall for your "clever tricks to pick up bitches" that only you and a few other sad excuses for grown men find to be clever in any way and not stupid at best and downright creepy and predatory at worst. I usually don't call for things to be cancelled, but let's use all that energy that's being wasted on cancelling Kylie Jenner for "appropriating black culture" to cancel something that truly shouldn't be.

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The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!