The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

[Sundiata]

No, no. There's nothing impractical about being able to protect others, being useful around the house, and having wider job options that necessitate physical strength. Being fit is also helpful with respect to courtship. It tells people you might pursue that you're conscientious and healthy.

a glock helps with all these things as well and is less effort.

sometimes it's lonely being this smart, but someone has to do it, and i want to be a hero.

Its often excessive to use force like that. It's better to rely on your physical strength than a weapon that is more likely to take someone's life. People have dignity. It's no laughing matter to shoot at someone even for just reasons.

[Capitalist Gulags of Alabama]

a glock helps with all these things as well and is less effort.

sometimes it's lonely being this smart, but someone has to do it, and i want to be a hero.

Its often excessive to use force like that. It's better to rely on your physical strength than a weapon that is more likely to take someone's life. People have dignity. It's no laughing matter to shoot at someone even for just reasons.

i mean, i don't have a glock, that's why nobody's courting me ;-;

[Sundiata]

Its often excessive to use force like that. It's better to rely on your physical strength than a weapon that is more likely to take someone's life. People have dignity. It's no laughing matter to shoot at someone even for just reasons.

i mean, i don't have a glock, that's why nobody's courting me ;-;

Funny stuff.

[Cordel One]

Women are a lot more than just objects, and you shouldn't judge them by their bodies or demand they fit into traditional gender roles.

exactly, and same for men and everyone,really.

This, I don't particularly enjoy being told what's masculine and what's not. I'm perfectly comfortable knitting, showing my emotions, and supporting the rights of women, minorities, and LGBT people as a straight male. More men need to realize that being toxic assholes doesn't make men "alphas".

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

exactly, and same for men and everyone,really.

This, I don't particularly enjoy being told what's masculine and what's not. I'm perfectly comfortable knitting, showing my emotions, and supporting the rights of women, minorities, and LGBT people as a straight male and I believe everyone else should be able to do so as well without being regarded as a "beta male" or something like that. Being a toxic asshole doesn't make men "alphas".

Nature and evolution are harsh though.

The word “emotions” do need to be unpacked. It clearly does not include anger. I’m definitely considered Beta precisely partly because I’m very unemotional and hard to offend. Knowing how harsh nature actually is I do have a firearm license.

Nature is just evil. I mean, for example Jewish people have committed about the least amount of crimes per capita among all major ethnic groups simply because they had been without an armed force for a long time. Yet of course they were denigrated more than anyone else. When Jews ruled nowhere antisemites in Europe and Middle East claimed that they ruled everywhere, claimed to be oppressed by and murdered them. Yet when Israel finally appeared so Jewish rule finally took place somewhere they became afraid of the IDF and gradually began to shut up. The better you treat some people the worse they treat you. Vice versa. It is sad but true.

[Sundiata]

exactly, and same for men and everyone,really.

This, I don't particularly enjoy being told what's masculine and what's not. I'm perfectly comfortable knitting, showing my emotions, and supporting the rights of women, minorities, and LGBT people as a straight male. More men need to realize that being toxic assholes doesn't make men "alphas".

I agree. It's sad that many people have equated masculinity with abuse.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

This, I don't particularly enjoy being told what's masculine and what's not. I'm perfectly comfortable knitting, showing my emotions, and supporting the rights of women, minorities, and LGBT people as a straight male. More men need to realize that being toxic assholes doesn't make men "alphas".

I agree. It's sad that many people have equated masculinity with abuse.

Ability to defend and ability to abuse are equivalent. Abuse itself is of course not equivalent to ability to abuse though.

Historically male power only rose when warfare became more common and never appeared in isolated tribes without warfare. So it is pretty clear what it is based on: ability to murder and coerce. Not economic contribution (that’s insignificant in many societies in Africa and Southeast Asia). Not creativity.

[Cordel One]

This, I don't particularly enjoy being told what's masculine and what's not. I'm perfectly comfortable knitting, showing my emotions, and supporting the rights of women, minorities, and LGBT people as a straight male and I believe everyone else should be able to do so as well without being regarded as a "beta male" or something like that. Being a toxic asshole doesn't make men "alphas".

Nature and evolution are harsh though.

The word “emotions” do need to be unpacked. It clearly does not include anger. I’m definitely considered Beta precisely partly because I’m very unemotional and hard to offend. Knowing how harsh nature actually is I do have a firearm license.

I don't think I'm really an "alpha" or a "beta". I work out, do carpentry, weld, and do other so-called "masculine" things as well. Being myself and doing what I enjoy hasn't made me any less of a man, I don't think.

This, I don't particularly enjoy being told what's masculine and what's not. I'm perfectly comfortable knitting, showing my emotions, and supporting the rights of women, minorities, and LGBT people as a straight male. More men need to realize that being toxic assholes doesn't make men "alphas".

I agree. It's sad that many people have equated masculinity with abuse.

That and crushing other people's hands in the "alpha male handhake".

[Sundiata]

Nature and evolution are harsh though.

The word “emotions” do need to be unpacked. It clearly does not include anger. I’m definitely considered Beta precisely partly because I’m very unemotional and hard to offend. Knowing how harsh nature actually is I do have a firearm license.

I don't think I'm really an "alpha" or a "beta". I work out, do carpentry, weld, and do other so-called "masculine" things as well. Being myself and doing what I enjoy hasn't made me any less of a man, I don't think.

I agree. It's sad that many people have equated masculinity with abuse.

That and crushing other people's hands in the "alpha male handhake".

I don't like putting men in those reductive categories. It's not good.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Nature and evolution are harsh though.

The word “emotions” do need to be unpacked. It clearly does not include anger. I’m definitely considered Beta precisely partly because I’m very unemotional and hard to offend. Knowing how harsh nature actually is I do have a firearm license.

I don't think I'm really an "alpha" or a "beta". I work out, do carpentry, weld, and do other so-called "masculine" things as well. Being myself and doing what I enjoy hasn't made me any less of a man, I don't think.

I agree. It's sad that many people have equated masculinity with abuse.

That and crushing other people's hands in the "alpha male handhake".

Why do you think pecking orders are determined by pecking, not by comparing the amount of contributions? Power has always been determined by the ability to harm, not the ability to help.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Of course that’s also why women traditionally don’t have much rights. They don’t tend to murder people and hence are not dangerous on average. Of course that means they get abused.

I’m not a feminist but I do agree with the Jewish feminist Andrea Dworkin that misogyny and antisemitism are essentially the same phenomenon which I consider to be bully reasoning. That is, no matter how much you contribute to a society if you are not dangerous you will be harmed...and then society will claim that you ARE actually dangerous. If you actually are dangerous then society will often claim that you AREN’T. Of course the latter is more of a nominal Judeo-Christian thing since such religions and their liberal offshoots have morally tabooed oppression. In earlier times bullies would simply go around and say “I have murdered 1,000 men, raped and beheaded 250 women and robbed 15 lb of gold! Yay!!!!” Due to Judeo-Christianity that’s not legit any more so instead they had to claim that they were actually victims while their victims were actually oppressors or other kinds of evil people.

[The Blaatschapen]

Not really.

Not really?!?

Without the military you'd be in German territory right now licking the boot of some Nazi stooge.

Let me tell you something, if the military puts you in a tutu and makes you dance like a sugarplum fairy, you better say "Yes sir, thank you sir, God bless this country.'

Come on man.

As a Dutch person living in actual Germany... when and where I wear a tutu is my own business, and the business of the people in the Motzstrasse.

[The Blaatschapen]

Of course that’s also why women traditionally don’t have much rights. They don’t tend to murder people and hence are not dangerous on average. Of course that means they get abused.

I would argue that you have the causal relation backwards. Because women don't have much power in society (traditionally), it will be hard to abuse said power for murder.

[Galloism]

Of course that’s also why women traditionally don’t have much rights. They don’t tend to murder people and hence are not dangerous on average. Of course that means they get abused.

I would argue that you have the causal relation backwards. Because women don't have much power in society (traditionally), it will be hard to abuse said power for murder.

I’ll also point out when women murder it tends to be much more likely to go undetected or go unsolved, as they disproportionately use poison as their murder weapon of choice.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Of course that’s also why women traditionally don’t have much rights. They don’t tend to murder people and hence are not dangerous on average. Of course that means they get abused.

I would argue that you have the causal relation backwards. Because women don't have much power in society (traditionally), it will be hard to abuse said power for murder.

I disagree. Women didn’t have no much power to begin with. What you described is actually a more recent phenomenon after the intensification of warfare.

[Auzkhia]

Nature and evolution are harsh though.

The word “emotions” do need to be unpacked. It clearly does not include anger. I’m definitely considered Beta precisely partly because I’m very unemotional and hard to offend. Knowing how harsh nature actually is I do have a firearm license.

I don't think I'm really an "alpha" or a "beta". I work out, do carpentry, weld, and do other so-called "masculine" things as well. Being myself and doing what I enjoy hasn't made me any less of a man, I don't think.

I agree. It's sad that many people have equated masculinity with abuse.

That and crushing other people's hands in the "alpha male handhake".

Alpha and beta were never meant to apply to humans, but wolves, and its proponent has since abandoned and denounced that hypothesis.

So if you call yourself an alpha male, you're being pseudo-scientific.

I would argue that you have the causal relation backwards. Because women don't have much power in society (traditionally), it will be hard to abuse said power for murder.

I disagree. Women didn’t have no much power to begin with. What you described is actually a more recent phenomenon after the intensification of warfare.

There wasn't really any universal treatment of women and their roles, due to matrilineal and even matriarchal societies existing, especially among many indigenous civilizations in the Americas. Gender as a social class and hierarchy has evolved and differed throughout time and among many different societies.

Hell, some groups were definitely relative or more egalitarian between genders, and some didn't just have male or female.

[Alcala-Cordel]

I don't think I'm really an "alpha" or a "beta". I work out, do carpentry, weld, and do other so-called "masculine" things as well. Being myself and doing what I enjoy hasn't made me any less of a man, I don't think.


That and crushing other people's hands in the "alpha male handhake".

Alpha and beta were never meant to apply to humans, but wolves, and its proponent has since abandoned and denounced that hypothesis.

So if you call yourself an alpha male, you're being pseudo-scientific.

Pseudoscientific and incredibly insecure.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

I don't think I'm really an "alpha" or a "beta". I work out, do carpentry, weld, and do other so-called "masculine" things as well. Being myself and doing what I enjoy hasn't made me any less of a man, I don't think.


That and crushing other people's hands in the "alpha male handhake".

Alpha and beta were never meant to apply to humans, but wolves, and its proponent has since abandoned and denounced that hypothesis.

So if you call yourself an alpha male, you're being pseudo-scientific.

I disagree. Women didn’t have no much power to begin with. What you described is actually a more recent phenomenon after the intensification of warfare.

There wasn't really any universal treatment of women and their roles, due to matrilineal and even matriarchal societies existing, especially among many indigenous civilizations in the Americas. Gender as a social class and hierarchy has evolved and differed throughout time and among many different societies.

Hell, some groups were definitely relative or more egalitarian between genders, and some didn't just have male or female.

Even in matrilineal societies power is usually held by a brother or the matriarch even though men in such societies are often not economically very useful. What it shows is the essence of male power: violence.

[Cordel One]

Alpha and beta were never meant to apply to humans, but wolves, and its proponent has since abandoned and denounced that hypothesis.

So if you call yourself an alpha male, you're being pseudo-scientific.

There wasn't really any universal treatment of women and their roles, due to matrilineal and even matriarchal societies existing, especially among many indigenous civilizations in the Americas. Gender as a social class and hierarchy has evolved and differed throughout time and among many different societies.

Hell, some groups were definitely relative or more egalitarian between genders, and some didn't just have male or female.

Even in matrilineal societies power is usually held by a brother or the matriarch even though men in such societies are often not economically very useful. What it shows is the essence of male power: violence.

I'd argue it's toxic sociology rather than violence that causes these unnecessary hierarchies and that it can be undone.

[Auzkhia]

Alpha and beta were never meant to apply to humans, but wolves, and its proponent has since abandoned and denounced that hypothesis.

So if you call yourself an alpha male, you're being pseudo-scientific.

There wasn't really any universal treatment of women and their roles, due to matrilineal and even matriarchal societies existing, especially among many indigenous civilizations in the Americas. Gender as a social class and hierarchy has evolved and differed throughout time and among many different societies.

Hell, some groups were definitely relative or more egalitarian between genders, and some didn't just have male or female.

Even in matrilineal societies power is usually held by a brother or the matriarch even though men in such societies are often not economically very useful. What it shows is the essence of male power: violence.

Gender always was and is and will be flexible, certain conditions can change such as conquest by another society with another idea of gender, like colonists from a patriarchal society conquering and subjugating different societies with different takes on gender. However even societies themselves can change, like the witch hunts for example, were the erosion of what rights and opportunities women had in the 16th to 17th century Europe, which was a turning point in European history, in transition from feudalism to capitalism, and witch hunts were breaking of their power, the fall of the wisefolk, who were mostly women, of course not all witch accusations were at women, some men found themselves at the wrong end of the mob, but nonetheless it affected women more than men, as a way to redefine gender roles because of changing economic, social, and political systems and norms. This was a time when women's rights got worse and that society was not at all equal though.

Male power is not innate but rather learned and maintained through the patriarchy's value systems, of sexism, misogyny, toxic masculinity, and anti-effeminacy, which all can lead to parallel systems of oppression tied to the sex-gender system like homophobia, transphobia, and especially transmisogyny.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Even in matrilineal societies power is usually held by a brother or the matriarch even though men in such societies are often not economically very useful. What it shows is the essence of male power: violence.

Gender always was and is and will be flexible, certain conditions can change such as conquest by another society with another idea of gender, like colonists from a patriarchal society conquering and subjugating different societies with different takes on gender. However even societies themselves can change, like the witch hunts for example, were the erosion of what rights and opportunities women had in the 16th to 17th century Europe, which was a turning point in European history, in transition from feudalism to capitalism, and witch hunts were breaking of their power, the fall of the wisefolk, who were mostly women, of course not all witch accusations were at women, some men found themselves at the wrong end of the mob, but nonetheless it affected women more than men, as a way to redefine gender roles because of changing economic, social, and political systems and norms. This was a time when women's rights got worse and that society was not at all equal though.

Male power is not innate but rather learned and maintained through the patriarchy's value systems, of sexism, misogyny, toxic masculinity, and anti-effeminacy, which all can lead to parallel systems of oppression tied to the sex-gender system like homophobia, transphobia, and especially transmisogyny.

I disagree. I believe the patriarchy is really just a subset of Might Is Right and power to those who are capable of and likely to cause harm. Even if transhumanism happens those who care more about others will probably be defined as “women 2.0” and persecuted while those who enjoy harming others will probably be defined as “men 2.0” and empowered. The problem is not about genitalia or physical strength. Instead it is about willingness and ability to harm.

[Auzkhia]

Gender always was and is and will be flexible, certain conditions can change such as conquest by another society with another idea of gender, like colonists from a patriarchal society conquering and subjugating different societies with different takes on gender. However even societies themselves can change, like the witch hunts for example, were the erosion of what rights and opportunities women had in the 16th to 17th century Europe, which was a turning point in European history, in transition from feudalism to capitalism, and witch hunts were breaking of their power, the fall of the wisefolk, who were mostly women, of course not all witch accusations were at women, some men found themselves at the wrong end of the mob, but nonetheless it affected women more than men, as a way to redefine gender roles because of changing economic, social, and political systems and norms. This was a time when women's rights got worse and that society was not at all equal though.

Male power is not innate but rather learned and maintained through the patriarchy's value systems, of sexism, misogyny, toxic masculinity, and anti-effeminacy, which all can lead to parallel systems of oppression tied to the sex-gender system like homophobia, transphobia, and especially transmisogyny.

I disagree. I believe the patriarchy is really just a subset of Might Is Right and power to those who are capable of and likely to cause harm. Even if transhumanism happens those who care more about others will probably be defined as “women 2.0” and persecuted while those who enjoy harming others will probably be defined as “men 2.0” and empowered. The problem is not about genitalia or physical strength. Instead it is about willingness and ability to harm.

These are all learned behaviours. Gender is, for the most part, socialization, and it can and has changed many times for many different reasons and even in different levels. There can be other factors in key, but it is not strictly biological.

Nobody is born a boy or a girl, that gets imposed on them as newborn babies, because of self-replicating norms in society. Animals don't seem to have genders. Humans made up gender, for what? I don't know exactly, but it's something hard to shake, and we can try to live with it as harmoniously possible through equity and equality, and realizing that it is not always so simple

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

I disagree. I believe the patriarchy is really just a subset of Might Is Right and power to those who are capable of and likely to cause harm. Even if transhumanism happens those who care more about others will probably be defined as “women 2.0” and persecuted while those who enjoy harming others will probably be defined as “men 2.0” and empowered. The problem is not about genitalia or physical strength. Instead it is about willingness and ability to harm.

These are all learned behaviours. Gender is, for the most part, socialization, and it can and has changed many times for many different reasons and even in different levels. There can be other factors in key, but it is not strictly biological.

Nobody is born a boy or a girl, that gets imposed on them as newborn babies, because of self-replicating norms in society. Animals don't seem to have genders. Humans made up gender, for what? I don't know exactly, but it's something hard to shake, and we can try to live with it as harmoniously possible through equity and equality, and realizing that it is not always so simple

Hmm...what do you mean by animals not having genders?

[Auzkhia]

These are all learned behaviours. Gender is, for the most part, socialization, and it can and has changed many times for many different reasons and even in different levels. There can be other factors in key, but it is not strictly biological.

Nobody is born a boy or a girl, that gets imposed on them as newborn babies, because of self-replicating norms in society. Animals don't seem to have genders. Humans made up gender, for what? I don't know exactly, but it's something hard to shake, and we can try to live with it as harmoniously possible through equity and equality, and realizing that it is not always so simple

Hmm...what do you mean by animals not having genders?

Ask any animal, and there doesn't really seem to be any when looked at independently, humans will assign on to them, especially on pets. In English, one uses gendered and grammatically animate pronouns for their pets, but for any other animal, that animal is it, the genderless inanimate. Animals do not have human social identities on their own. It's all made up by humans collectively in many different ways.

[Nekostan-e Gharbi]

Hmm...what do you mean by animals not having genders?

Ask any animal, and there doesn't really seem to be any when looked at independently, humans will assign on to them, especially on pets. In English, one uses gendered and grammatically animate pronouns for their pets, but for any other animal, that animal is it, the genderless inanimate. Animals do not have human social identities on their own. It's all made up by humans collectively in many different ways.

Ah I get it. So the word we should use is “sex”, not “gender”.