The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

[Luminesa]

House passes legislation to expand breastfeeding protections in the workplace (276-149)

Very nice.

[Saiwania]

House passes legislation to expand breastfeeding protections in the workplace (276-149)

Women don't need to be breastfeeding at work. Where is their babysitter/daycare in all of this? Chances are the employer doesn't want to hear or deal with any childcare problems. That is for individuals to handle when they're off work.

[Vassenor]

House passes legislation to expand breastfeeding protections in the workplace (276-149)

Women don't need to be breastfeeding at work. Where is their babysitter/daycare in all of this? Chances are the employer doesn't want to hear or deal with any childcare problems. That is for individuals to handle when they're off work.

Oh right I forgot we live in a magical fantasy where everyone who needs it can find and afford childcare services.

[Kowani]

xeno!

Yo! I probably won't be very active for long though, I just got bored today.

How are you doing though?

ah, no worries
just good to have you back

---

Democrats considering ditching paid leave program entirely

(actually not super mad considering how abysmal the design is)

[Saiwania]

Oh right I forgot we live in a magical fantasy where everyone who needs it can find and afford childcare services.

In real life it seems it doesn't matter whether people can afford daycare or not. The latchkey laws are such that you have to have someone at the home to watch a child up to a certain age or to drop them off at a place whose job it is to do this. To leave young kids home alone is against the law and is very bad news for the parent if it were to be discovered. That is what the "stay at home" mother was for in previous generations.

[Neuer California]

Oh right I forgot we live in a magical fantasy where everyone who needs it can find and afford childcare services.

In real life it seems it doesn't matter whether people can afford daycare or not. The latchkey laws are such that you have to have someone at the home to watch a child up to a certain age or to drop them off at a place whose job it is to do this. To leave young kids home alone is against the law and is very bad news for the parent if it were to be discovered. That is what the "stay at home" mother was for in previous generations.

Because everyone knows someone reliable and available to watch their kids while they're at work, or has the money for daycare

Also, these days very few families can afford to have one parent not working

[Saiwania]

Because everyone knows someone reliable and available to watch their kids while they're at work, or has the money for daycare. Also, these days very few families can afford to have one parent not working

They shouldn't be a parent if they didn't anticipate this or don't have the means to afford it if they have to work. I get that some people realize that they'll never be a high enough earner, and decide to reproduce anyways- but they surely know that daycare will be a problem they'll have to nagivate if its not an option for them to quit work. They can't be painted as some "poor victim" if they knew ahead of time what they could be getting into.

Regardless of whether childcare is affordable or not, it's still expected of them unless or until the law is changed to allow for more children to be left home alone or until the government is willing to pay for or get into the daycare business themselves.

[Neuer California]

Because everyone knows someone reliable and available to watch their kids while they're at work, or has the money for daycare. Also, these days very few families can afford to have one parent not working

They shouldn't be a parent if they didn't anticipate this or don't have the means to afford it if they have to work. I get that some people realize that they'll never be a high enough earner, and decide to reproduce anyways- but they surely know that daycare will be a problem they'll have to nagivate if its not an option for them to quit work. They can't be painted as some "poor victim" if they knew ahead of time what they could be getting into.

Regardless of whether childcare is affordable or not, it's still expected of them unless or until the law is changed to allow for more children to be left home alone or until the government is willing to pay for or get into the daycare business themselves.

And what of those whose financial circumstances change unexpectedly between giving birth and their child turning 18?

[Saiwania]

And what of those whose financial circumstances change unexpectedly between giving birth and their child turning 18?

Its a problem without a solution if its just the parent and the child. They're usually screwed if they don't have another or extended family to fall back on, which is traditionally the case for most people not in the developed world. If there is no social safety net where they live. Were it me, I'd give the child up if I can conclude that there is no salvaging the situation.

[Fahran]

Because everyone knows someone reliable and available to watch their kids while they're at work, or has the money for daycare

Also, these days very few families can afford to have one parent not working

This does at least allow us to glance at one of the very serious negative effects social atomization has had on both women and families. The fact that childcare has become a steep cost paid out to professionals rather than something that can be managed within extended families or close-knit communities is a relatively new phenomenon, though, truth be told, women pursuing careers rather than remaining in the home in perpetuity may well be more to blame.

[Fahran]

They shouldn't be a parent if they didn't anticipate this or don't have the means to afford it if they have to work.

We kinda need people to become parents if we want society to function in forty or sixty years.

[New haven america]

In real life it seems it doesn't matter whether people can afford daycare or not. The latchkey laws are such that you have to have someone at the home to watch a child up to a certain age or to drop them off at a place whose job it is to do this. To leave young kids home alone is against the law and is very bad news for the parent if it were to be discovered. That is what the "stay at home" mother was for in previous generations.

Because everyone knows someone reliable and available to watch their kids while they're at work, or has the money for daycare

Also, these days very few families can afford to have one parent not working

This is why multi-partner relationships should be more common.

If most of those on the right are so against that type of "Sexual hedonism" than how about making everything more affordable instead?

[Neutraligon]

Because everyone knows someone reliable and available to watch their kids while they're at work, or has the money for daycare

Also, these days very few families can afford to have one parent not working

This does at least allow us to glance at one of the very serious negative effects social atomization has had on both women and families. The fact that childcare has become a steep cost paid out to professionals rather than something that can be managed within extended families or close-knit communities is a relatively new phenomenon, though, truth be told, women pursuing careers rather than remaining in the home in perpetuity may well be more to blame.

Considering that even in ancient times there was not always someone available to take care of the children...yeah this is bs.

[Herador]

House passes legislation to expand breastfeeding protections in the workplace (276-149)

Women don't need to be breastfeeding at work. Where is their babysitter/daycare in all of this? Chances are the employer doesn't want to hear or deal with any childcare problems. That is for individuals to handle when they're off work.

I want you to do something for me. I want you to find a childcare professional in your area that is willing to do 10 hours of work (unrealistically short, but we'll call it there), five days a week, all for a monthly wage that averages out to less that the rent of a two bedroom apartment in a decent area for where you live. I then want you to call this person and ask them if they could work the hours of 8am to 6pm five days a week.

Then I want you to find me another one to be on call.

Then I want you to do it again just in case the one you have as back up can't do it the day you might need them due to other obligations.

If you can do that, you might have a point for women who work a standard 9-5 and can move all chores that take them out of the house to their weekend.

[Tahar Joblis]

Oh right I forgot we live in a magical fantasy where everyone who needs it can find and afford childcare services.

In real life it seems it doesn't matter whether people can afford daycare or not. The latchkey laws are such that you have to have someone at the home to watch a child up to a certain age or to drop them off at a place whose job it is to do this. To leave young kids home alone is against the law and is very bad news for the parent if it were to be discovered. That is what the "stay at home" mother was for in previous generations.

The "stay at home mother" of previous generations told the kids to go out and play and come back when it was dinnertime. My father couldn't have hung around the house after school if he wanted. I'm a millennial who had a stay-at-home mom, and I can remember roaming off to the mall and library by myself at a pretty young age without any trouble coming of it.

The idea that a 13 year old kid has to be supervised 24/7 is an extremely new one. The idea that it used to be just totally normal because stay at home moms were common is grossly ignorant at best.

[Fahran]

Considering that even in ancient times there was not always someone available to take care of the children...yeah this is bs.

I mean... it's really not. You cannot leave young children unattended without serious risks. Ancient and medieval people weren't just leaving their children in the house to commute to work. They either worked close to the home, kept their children with them while working, or got someone else to watch them - often a member of the extended family. It really wasn't until the 1970s that the majority of American women went into the workplace and it really wasn't until the 1950s that social atomization successfully did away with cohesive communities and extended kinship networks in many places. You'll note that in more rural regions of Kenya and Yemen... they don't really have the same problems with childcare costs paid out to non-relatives.

I get that this response is probably the result of reading what I said and inferring that I want women to stay home, but I'll point out that this isn't actually a view I hold. I'm diagnosing a particular problem that has arisen by pointing out why we depend on childcare services at the moment. A greater reliance on extended kinship networks could alleviate a lot of the stress associated with such expenses. And probably address the various other problems associated with social atomization. All while women continue to work.

[Kowani]

Rep. Glenn Grothman (R-WI) says universal Pre-K isn’t needed because there are stay at home parents

[Giovenith]

Rep. Glenn Grothman (R-WI) says universal Pre-K isn’t needed because there are stay at home parents

Even if that were true, which it's not (being able to stay home is an increasing luxury), stay at home parents should not be expected to spend their entire day childrearing. They're homemakers, not slaves. They need breaks too, and interacting with a wide variety of other children and adults is healthy for children regardless. Republicans like to push the unrealistic image of the totally-devoted-super-SAHM/D (usually mom) with no other interests or motivations outside their children not only because it reinforces traditional gender roles but because it gives them an excuse not to pay for childcare programs.

[Vassenor]

Rep. Glenn Grothman (R-WI) says universal Pre-K isn’t needed because there are stay at home parents

Even if that were true, which it's not (being able to stay home is an increasing luxury), stay at home parents should not be expected to spend their entire day childrearing. They're homemakers, not slaves. They need breaks too, and interacting with a wide variety of other children and adults is healthy for children regardless. Republicans like to push the unrealistic image of the totally-devoted-super-SAHM/D (usually mom) with no other interests or motivations outside their children not only because it reinforces traditional gender roles but because it gives them an excuse not to pay for childcare programs.

Kinder, Kuche, Kirche.

[Kowani]

the childcare program is in the reconcilation bill, it has been fixed to not suck as much, and the definition for qualification is relatively expansive for an american government program

[Sundiata]

the childcare program is in the reconcilation bill, it has been fixed to not suck as much, and the definition for qualification is relatively expansive for an american government program

Good!

[New Visayan Islands]

Jasmithia and TheLetterHLand have been *** deleted as pure trolls/spammers. ***

Dreria's extensive Moderation history has seen cause to warrant *** one week off for flamebait. *** Please take the time off to read, review, and reflect on the Rules.

The offending posts have been removed.

New Visayan Islands
Game Moderator

[Luminesa]

the childcare program is in the reconcilation bill, it has been fixed to not suck as much, and the definition for qualification is relatively expansive for an american government program

I saw the red text and then this good news, so very nice.

[Stellar Colonies]

When Men Take Paternity Leave, the Economy Benefits (Bloomberg)

Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg took paternity leave and, while he nested, the critics feasted.

“Loser” and “a little weird”" were among the more printable reactions after he and his husband, Chasten, took their twins home. The onslaught neatly encapsulated the stigma that’s kept some working fathers from taking advantage of such family policies, despite the social and economic benefits.

“Isn’t that supposed to be for the person who gave birth?” commentator and television host Joe Rogan asked during his Tuesday podcast, before declaring that it was strange for parents to get maternity and paternity leave simultaneously.

Joe Lonsdale, co-founder of Palantir Technologies Inc. and a prolific venture capitalist, piled on, tweeting Wednesday that any prominent man who takes six months off to care for his child is “a loser.”

Buttigieg, who adopted Penelope Rose and Joseph August this year and announced his leave in August, said in an interview with ABC News that some good came of the criticism, because it started a conversation.

“We’re almost the only country left in the world that doesn't have some kind of policy … and when parents take that parental leave, they need to be supported,” he said. “If there’s this idea that maybe men have access to paternity leave but it’s frowned on if they actually use it … that carries with it this assumption that the woman’s going to do all the work.”

The conversation over men’s familial roles is unfolding as Democrats in Congress abandon a proposal for paid family leave in order to get President Joe Biden’s $1.75 trillion economic plan over the line. Republicans are united in opposition to the plan, and two moderate Democratic senators, Joe Manchin and Krysten Sinema, have raised doubts about framework’s overall cost. The U.S. is one of seven countries in the world that don’t mandate paid leave for new mothers.

The pandemic put the struggles of working parents at center stage. A child-care shortage has kept women in particular from rejoining the workforce and is dragging on job growth. Between February 2020 and February 2021, more than 2.3 million women left the workforce, bringing their participation rate to 57% — lower than at any time since 1988, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

As of March, only 23% of workers are eligible for paid family leave, according to the agency. Less than 20% of men in the U.S. get any amount of employer-provided paid paternity leave.

While more men are taking advantage of parental leave when it’s available, the criticism that erupted over Buttigieg is a reminder that a stigma still exists. Only 62% of men take the full amount of leave for which they are eligible compared with 93% of women, according to a 2019 study by the Boston College Center for Work and Family. Some men take only part of the time available.

How does paid paternity leave work?

While many countries provide paid leave for both parents after the birth of a child, the U.S. doesn’t, so it varies by state.

Nine states plus the District of Columbia have paid family-leave programs ranging from six to 12 weeks off, according to the Bipartisan Policy Center. Three of those states have yet to implement their programs. While employers in those states must meet minimum requirements, they can always offer more. Federal government workers, meanwhile, qualify for as much as 12 weeks paid leave.

In most states, employers decide how much leave to provide workers. That’s led to inequities, with mostly better-compensated workers getting paid time off.

Unpaid leave is another option*. The Family and Medical Leave Act guarantees both men and women 12 weeks of unpaid leave, but eligibility requirements are strict. An employee must have worked at least 1,250 hours during the year before the leave for an organization employing at least 50 people within a 75-mile radius. As much as 40% of the U.S. workforce doesn’t qualify for FMLA protections for parental, family caregiving or medical needs, according to a February 2020 report from the Bipartisan Policy Center.

*Preferably not

During the pandemic, some companies increased paid family leave. A survey of 2,504 human-resources professionals by the Society for Human Resource Management found that 44% of respondents said their companies had paid paternity leave in 2020, up from 21% in 2016.

What is the stigma around paternity leave?

Some men who have access to paid leave say they’re reluctant to take it. They worry doing so will damage their reputations, put them at a disadvantage for promotions and affect their earning potential.

A 2016 survey by Deloitte found that men were far more likely to indicate they didn’t plan to use paid parental leave, with one in three saying their jobs could be in jeopardy. Men who take paternity leave tend to lose status in the workplace, with employers questioning their commitments to their jobs if they take too much time off, according to research by Willamette University law professor Keith Cunningham-Parmeter.

Money also figures into leave decisions. Men were more likely take longer leaves if their full salaries weren’t reduced, according to a 2019 paper from the Boston College Center for Work & Family. A study by the center in 2014 found that five out of six employed fathers said they wouldn’t take paternity leave unless at least 70% of their salary was paid.

What are the social and economic impacts of paternity leave?

It’s a positive for the family as a whole. Longer leaves are associated with increased engagement and bonding, which leads to improved health and development outcomes for children, according to a Department of Labor brief.

When fathers take leave, it also helps mothers engage in paid work, driving up their labor-force participation and wages. States with paid-leave policies found a 20% reduction in the number of women leaving jobs in the first year after giving birth — and up to a 50% reduction after five years — according to a 2019 study by the nonprofit Institute for Women's Policy Research. The paper analyzed labor-market participation among women in California and New Jersey before and after each state launched a paid family and medical leave system.

That study also found that over the long term, paid family leave nearly closed the gap in workforce participation between mothers with young children and those without. For women without access, nearly 30% dropped out of the workforce within a year after giving birth and one in five didn’t return for more than a decade.

Misandric cultural expectations for men are harmful for them, their spouses, their children, and the economy.

who knew

[The Black Forrest]

When Men Take Paternity Leave, the Economy Benefits (Bloomberg)

Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg took paternity leave and, while he nested, the critics feasted.

“Loser” and “a little weird”" were among the more printable reactions after he and his husband, Chasten, took their twins home. The onslaught neatly encapsulated the stigma that’s kept some working fathers from taking advantage of such family policies, despite the social and economic benefits.

“Isn’t that supposed to be for the person who gave birth?” commentator and television host Joe Rogan asked during his Tuesday podcast, before declaring that it was strange for parents to get maternity and paternity leave simultaneously.

Joe Lonsdale, co-founder of Palantir Technologies Inc. and a prolific venture capitalist, piled on, tweeting Wednesday that any prominent man who takes six months off to care for his child is “a loser.”

Buttigieg, who adopted Penelope Rose and Joseph August this year and announced his leave in August, said in an interview with ABC News that some good came of the criticism, because it started a conversation.

“We’re almost the only country left in the world that doesn't have some kind of policy … and when parents take that parental leave, they need to be supported,” he said. “If there’s this idea that maybe men have access to paternity leave but it’s frowned on if they actually use it … that carries with it this assumption that the woman’s going to do all the work.”

The conversation over men’s familial roles is unfolding as Democrats in Congress abandon a proposal for paid family leave in order to get President Joe Biden’s $1.75 trillion economic plan over the line. Republicans are united in opposition to the plan, and two moderate Democratic senators, Joe Manchin and Krysten Sinema, have raised doubts about framework’s overall cost. The U.S. is one of seven countries in the world that don’t mandate paid leave for new mothers.

The pandemic put the struggles of working parents at center stage. A child-care shortage has kept women in particular from rejoining the workforce and is dragging on job growth. Between February 2020 and February 2021, more than 2.3 million women left the workforce, bringing their participation rate to 57% — lower than at any time since 1988, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.

As of March, only 23% of workers are eligible for paid family leave, according to the agency. Less than 20% of men in the U.S. get any amount of employer-provided paid paternity leave.

While more men are taking advantage of parental leave when it’s available, the criticism that erupted over Buttigieg is a reminder that a stigma still exists. Only 62% of men take the full amount of leave for which they are eligible compared with 93% of women, according to a 2019 study by the Boston College Center for Work and Family. Some men take only part of the time available.

How does paid paternity leave work?

While many countries provide paid leave for both parents after the birth of a child, the U.S. doesn’t, so it varies by state.

Nine states plus the District of Columbia have paid family-leave programs ranging from six to 12 weeks off, according to the Bipartisan Policy Center. Three of those states have yet to implement their programs. While employers in those states must meet minimum requirements, they can always offer more. Federal government workers, meanwhile, qualify for as much as 12 weeks paid leave.

In most states, employers decide how much leave to provide workers. That’s led to inequities, with mostly better-compensated workers getting paid time off.

Unpaid leave is another option*. The Family and Medical Leave Act guarantees both men and women 12 weeks of unpaid leave, but eligibility requirements are strict. An employee must have worked at least 1,250 hours during the year before the leave for an organization employing at least 50 people within a 75-mile radius. As much as 40% of the U.S. workforce doesn’t qualify for FMLA protections for parental, family caregiving or medical needs, according to a February 2020 report from the Bipartisan Policy Center.

*Preferably not

During the pandemic, some companies increased paid family leave. A survey of 2,504 human-resources professionals by the Society for Human Resource Management found that 44% of respondents said their companies had paid paternity leave in 2020, up from 21% in 2016.

What is the stigma around paternity leave?

Some men who have access to paid leave say they’re reluctant to take it. They worry doing so will damage their reputations, put them at a disadvantage for promotions and affect their earning potential.

A 2016 survey by Deloitte found that men were far more likely to indicate they didn’t plan to use paid parental leave, with one in three saying their jobs could be in jeopardy. Men who take paternity leave tend to lose status in the workplace, with employers questioning their commitments to their jobs if they take too much time off, according to research by Willamette University law professor Keith Cunningham-Parmeter.

Money also figures into leave decisions. Men were more likely take longer leaves if their full salaries weren’t reduced, according to a 2019 paper from the Boston College Center for Work & Family. A study by the center in 2014 found that five out of six employed fathers said they wouldn’t take paternity leave unless at least 70% of their salary was paid.

What are the social and economic impacts of paternity leave?

It’s a positive for the family as a whole. Longer leaves are associated with increased engagement and bonding, which leads to improved health and development outcomes for children, according to a Department of Labor brief.

When fathers take leave, it also helps mothers engage in paid work, driving up their labor-force participation and wages. States with paid-leave policies found a 20% reduction in the number of women leaving jobs in the first year after giving birth — and up to a 50% reduction after five years — according to a 2019 study by the nonprofit Institute for Women's Policy Research. The paper analyzed labor-market participation among women in California and New Jersey before and after each state launched a paid family and medical leave system.

That study also found that over the long term, paid family leave nearly closed the gap in workforce participation between mothers with young children and those without. For women without access, nearly 30% dropped out of the workforce within a year after giving birth and one in five didn’t return for more than a decade.

Misandric cultural expectations for men are harmful for them, their spouses, their children, and the economy.

who knew

Misandry? I’m……not seeing the link.