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The NationStates Feminism Thread IV: Fight Like A Girl!

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Should we continue this thread or retire it at the 500 page mark?

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Total votes : 347

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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:02 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:I noted that even if it is the case that they are genuinely impoverished, tampons aren't really going to do much to address the underlying issues there.

It would take around $100 to address the sanitary needs of a single mother and daughter over the course of a year, assuming we include the sales taxes. Families with three or four daughters would take $200 or $250. That's not a whole lot, but the most vulnerable families are likely skating by on $18,000 annually or less, and are single parent households where the mother is raising the children. Though, notably, single fathers of girls are in similarly precarious positions. On the higher end, this is probably a month and a half to two months of groceries if you're making shrewd purchases. But there's also concrete benefits to the education of all pupils by not having to deal with the drama of girls forgetting tampons/pads and whatnot.

Ostroeuropa wrote:As for ideas on how to uplift men and boys, i'd begin first by immediately implementing Leonard Sax's ideas regarding ADHD diagnosis in schools.

Potentially even begin class action lawsuits against drug companies and school therapists. (Sax notes that boys are *vastly* overdiagnosed, often given drugs to "fix" them for displaying boyish behaviors, and beyond this, notes that it is done flagrantly in violation of standard medical practice requiring "These symptoms" not "One of these symptoms" as is done to male children).

The drugs when used on a healthy boy cause significantly adverse life outcomes and predicts terrible school results and psychological issues in later life.

I'd also note that this appears to me to be a much more pressing and dire problem in philosophical ethical terms, and yet we've put it behind "Tampons" in the discussion despite Sax having written his book a decade ago and been campaigning since. (As in; It is more vital that you stop stabbing the homeless man than it is you up and decide to give money to a different homeless man. That seems to me to be straightforwardly uncontroversial.).

It is a problem emerging from a combination of hostility and hatred for boys and masculinity and capitalism and profit motives of drug companies all too happy to exploit peoples animosity towards male children and their sense that they are "Broken" somehow. The schools hire therapists who drug the male children into compliance regardless of whether they actually have a mental health issue.

“There are more kids in Spokane on ADD medication than in all of France,” Dr. Leonard Sax said during our conversation about raising boys for last week’s column.


All the feminist waffling about bodily autonomy and you live in a country that is force-feeding amphetamines to male children because of the hatred of masculinity and viewing it as abnormal.

I do think our present approach to education, in more broad strokes even beyond the over-diagnosis of ADD, has led to disparate outcomes for boys and girls, especially when it comes to the attainment of higher education. With that being said, there is compelling evidence that boys tend to concentrate towards higher and lower levels of academic achievement whereas girls tend to concentrate more towards the center. We may well need to consider that, as well as the intrinsic behavioral differences of many boys and girls, in developing curricula and strategies to educate children in a manner that assures us some degree of equity.

I'm not an expert on this by any means, and I'm almost tempted to begin quoting papers or to fetch Lumi, but I don't disagree that there does appear to be serious issues with how we've been treating boys over the course of the last twenty to thirty years. On that same note, we also tend to under-diagnose girls with ADD in all likelihood.
Last edited by Fahran on Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Then it was as if all the beauty of Ardha, devastating in its color and form and movement, recalled to him, more and more, the First Music, though reflected dimly. Thus Alnair wept bitterly, lamenting the notes which had begun to fade from his memory. He, who had composed the world's first poem upon spying a gazelle and who had played the world's first song upon encountering a dove perched upon a moringa, in beauty, now found only suffering and longing. Such it must be for all among the djinn, souls of flame and ash slowly dwindling to cinders in the elder days of the world."

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Ors Might
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Postby Ors Might » Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:04 pm

Neuer California wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
You're viewing it in isolation, something the post explicitly tells you not to do.

I'm doing the opposite, actually. I'm focusing on a general trend in your posts that suggests that anything pro-woman is automatically anti-man.

Ors Might wrote:While I support supplying students with free menstrual products, I can’t help but think Ostro at least raises a fair question here. Why has this become a focus over other issues that seem to be far more pressing? Because while its all well and good that students are given the tools needed to take care of their menstrual cycles, it seems even better to ensure that these students aren’t drugged out of their gourd just for demonstrating normal levels of rowdy behavior.


I have a question for you: why should we focus on only the big pressing stuff, when we can also take care of the smaller stuff at the same time? I mean, its not like we can only focus on a few issues at a time or only the biggest issues are worthy of our attention. Also, I'm sure there are quite a few people who would think lack of reliable access to menstrual products is a big issue. It's a matter of perspective.

Edit: for example, I consider the overmedication of kids, which you call a major issue, one of moderate importance, and one that pales in importance to the problem of bullying in schools, which I see as the most important issue affecting education

We should take care of all of these issues at once, you’re absolutely correct. The problem is that we won’t. The problem of boys being overmedicated has been brought up for years and it’s still one that’s been ignored. In almost every instance, if an issue is predominantly impacting men and boys as opposed to women, it won’t be taken up by gender equality activists.
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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Sun Oct 17, 2021 9:11 pm

Ors Might wrote:We should take care of all of these issues at once, you’re absolutely correct. The problem is that we won’t. The problem of boys being overmedicated has been brought up for years and it’s still one that’s been ignored. In almost every instance, if an issue is predominantly impacting men and boys as opposed to women, it won’t be taken up by gender equality activists.

I'm a feminist, but I think this is a valid consideration and that this problem is largely rooted in patriarchal ways of viewing men and women. Women and girls are seen as uniquely vulnerable and, in many cases, as needing men and boys to protect them. The rhetoric behind "He For She" and other such campaigns carried roughly the same message as that given to men who stayed behind on The Titanic, "women and children first." Boys are already falling behind in university attendance in many places. They're less likely to finish primary education in many places.
"Then it was as if all the beauty of Ardha, devastating in its color and form and movement, recalled to him, more and more, the First Music, though reflected dimly. Thus Alnair wept bitterly, lamenting the notes which had begun to fade from his memory. He, who had composed the world's first poem upon spying a gazelle and who had played the world's first song upon encountering a dove perched upon a moringa, in beauty, now found only suffering and longing. Such it must be for all among the djinn, souls of flame and ash slowly dwindling to cinders in the elder days of the world."

- Song of the Fallen Star

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:13 am

Neuer California wrote:I'm doing the opposite, actually. I'm focusing on a general trend in your posts that suggests that anything pro-woman is automatically anti-man.


I don't think you're actually even trying to engage with the viewpoint frankly.

It's like if someone points out "Missing white woman syndrome" in the media and you flip your lid and start acting like they're a racist for bringing it up every time there's another months long media hysteria over a missing white woman (All while ignoring the dozens of ethnic women who go disappearing in the meantime).

Well, i'm going to keep bringing it up until the pattern breaks. That's not anti-white woman. Just like pointing out the obsessive "Womens issues syndrome" is a blight on our society and fundamentally sexist too. Doesn't make me anti-woman, and if you think it does, that speaks volumes about you, not me.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Mon Oct 18, 2021 2:18 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Saiwania » Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:23 am

Fahran wrote:But there's also concrete benefits to the education of all pupils by not having to deal with the drama of girls forgetting tampons/pads and whatnot.


If they don't endure consequence, they'll never learn anything from such a mistake- such as not to do that again. They'll just take it for granted that they'll be bailed out and be sorely disappointed when this isn't the case for when/if they're on their own after moving out.
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Postby Vassenor » Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:30 am

Remember, women and girls need to be punished for a biological process, apparently.
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Postby Saiwania » Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:35 am

Vassenor wrote:Remember, women and girls need to be punished for a biological process, apparently.


Its hardly any different from if someone got no sleep the previous night but have to muster up the strength to go to school/work anyways. It's their problem if their day will be miserable if it wouldn't be if they didn't stay up.
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Postby Vassenor » Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:35 am

Saiwania wrote:
Vassenor wrote:Remember, women and girls need to be punished for a biological process, apparently.


Its hardly any different from if someone got no sleep the previous night but have to muster up the strength to go to school/work anyways. It's their problem if their day will be miserable if it wouldn't be if they didn't stay up.


Remember, if you're poor it's your own fault.

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:50 am

On the tampon thing I kind of look at it like white people getting skin cancer. Preventing skin cancer is a good thing. Sunscreen helps.

White people get skin cancer at a rate higher than other races.

But if you’re a racial justice activist in the United States, and you look at all the racial problems in the United States, and the thing you seize on to promote is “we need to give free sunscreen to white people” as your racial justice cause, I am justifiably suspicious of your motives.

That’s about where I’m at on the tampon thing. I’m not saying you’re wrong or that period poverty isn’t a thing, but of all the gender discrimination you see occurring, you not only focus on the gender already disproportionately benefitting from discrimination, but focus on periods instead of boys being literally killed for their gender.

Hence why I see you as “free sunscreen for white people” activists.
Last edited by Galloism on Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The V I C
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Postby The V I C » Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:28 am

Galloism wrote:On the tampon thing I kind of look at it like white people getting skin cancer. Preventing skin cancer is a good thing. Sunscreen helps.

White people get skin cancer at a rate higher than other races.

But if you’re a racial justice activist in the United States, and you look at all the racial problems in the United States, and the thing you seize on to promote is “we need to give free sunscreen to white people” as your racial justice cause, I am justifiably suspicious of your motives.

That’s about where I’m at on the tampon thing. I’m not saying you’re wrong or that period poverty isn’t a thing, but of all the gender discrimination you see occurring, you not only focus on the gender already disproportionately benefitting from discrimination, but focus on periods instead of boys being literally killed for their gender.

Hence why I see you as “free sunscreen for white people” activists.


Youd have a point if people were only focusing on girls getting tampons and nothing else. Except literally no one is doing that. We can deal with multiple issues at once you know. As for what you said about gender based violence, where the hell are boys being literally killed for their gender? Fantasy island I assume, considering there is literally no society on earth where it is literally a capital punishment to be male. Mobs of angry mysandrists arent prowling the streets looking to kill the first man they see. It just isnt happening in the real world. And lastly, I think alot of women would rightly take issue with you thinking sexism privileges women and only harms men. From the repeal of abortion rights in the US to things like honor killings and female general mutilation in the third world to the "daddy stitch" (don't look it up if youre not ready for some horrible information), no, women don't have it great under sexism. I wouldn't argue its all good for men but you are being dishonest if you think sexism is just "women are taken care of and comfy, while men are dead." this is why nothing ever gets done about sexism. Its because third wave feminists and the "manosphere" think this is the Olympics of suffering. Maybe its time we stop fighting over who's had it the worst and start tackling any and all sexism, ajd yes by any and all sexism, it includes men. I'm sure that won't happen though because its just so much easier to complain about how the other gender has everything and one has nothing.
Last edited by The V I C on Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:43 am

The V I C wrote:
Galloism wrote:On the tampon thing I kind of look at it like white people getting skin cancer. Preventing skin cancer is a good thing. Sunscreen helps.

White people get skin cancer at a rate higher than other races.

But if you’re a racial justice activist in the United States, and you look at all the racial problems in the United States, and the thing you seize on to promote is “we need to give free sunscreen to white people” as your racial justice cause, I am justifiably suspicious of your motives.

That’s about where I’m at on the tampon thing. I’m not saying you’re wrong or that period poverty isn’t a thing, but of all the gender discrimination you see occurring, you not only focus on the gender already disproportionately benefitting from discrimination, but focus on periods instead of boys being literally killed for their gender.

Hence why I see you as “free sunscreen for white people” activists.


Youd have a point if people were only focusing on girls getting tampons and nothing else. Except literally no one is doing that. We can deal with multiple issues at once you know. As for what you said about gender based violence, where the hell are boys being literally killed for their gender? Fantasy island I assume, considering there is literally no society on earth where it is literally a capital punishment to be male. Mobs of angry mysandrists arent prowling the streets looking to kill the first man they see. It just isnt happening in the real world. And lastly, I think alot of women would rightly take issue with you thinking sexism privileges women and only harms men. From the repeal of abortion rights in the US to things like honor killings and female general mutilation in the third world to the "daddy stitch" (don't look it up if youre not ready for some horrible information), no, women don't have it great under sexism. I wouldn't argue its all good for men but you are being dishonest if you think sexism is just "women are taken care of and comfy, while men are dead." this is why nothing ever gets done about sexism. Its because third wave feminists and the "manosphere" think this is the Olympics of suffering. Maybe its time we stop fighting over who's had it the worst and start tackling any and all sexism, ajd yes by any and all sexism, it includes men. I'm sure that won't happen though because its just so much easier to complain about how the other gender has everything and one has nothing.

Here in the real world. No one is seriously addressing the fact men and boys are disproportionately targeted for death by “mobs of angry misandrists”, IE, the police.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585 ... by-gender/

Yeah. That’s a thing.

Not to mention men are far more likely to be murdered due to gender outside of the police:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/251 ... nd-gender/

The statistics here are a slam dunk. Your incredulity, far from countering my point, is proving my point.

Notice I said “disproportionately”. Women suffer sexism too, but it’s disproportionately against men. Hence the extremely disproportionate deaths due to gender.
Last edited by Galloism on Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Ors Might
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Postby Ors Might » Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:16 am

Fahran wrote:
Ors Might wrote:We should take care of all of these issues at once, you’re absolutely correct. The problem is that we won’t. The problem of boys being overmedicated has been brought up for years and it’s still one that’s been ignored. In almost every instance, if an issue is predominantly impacting men and boys as opposed to women, it won’t be taken up by gender equality activists.

I'm a feminist, but I think this is a valid consideration and that this problem is largely rooted in patriarchal ways of viewing men and women. Women and girls are seen as uniquely vulnerable and, in many cases, as needing men and boys to protect them. The rhetoric behind "He For She" and other such campaigns carried roughly the same message as that given to men who stayed behind on The Titanic, "women and children first." Boys are already falling behind in university attendance in many places. They're less likely to finish primary education in many places.

I still dislike phrasing it as patriarchal but I see what you’re getting at and I agree. The way men and women are socialized and viewed seems to be, ironically, bleeding into the ways we try to dismantle those socializations?
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The V I C
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Postby The V I C » Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:07 am

Galloism wrote:
The V I C wrote:
Youd have a point if people were only focusing on girls getting tampons and nothing else. Except literally no one is doing that. We can deal with multiple issues at once you know. As for what you said about gender based violence, where the hell are boys being literally killed for their gender? Fantasy island I assume, considering there is literally no society on earth where it is literally a capital punishment to be male. Mobs of angry mysandrists arent prowling the streets looking to kill the first man they see. It just isnt happening in the real world. And lastly, I think alot of women would rightly take issue with you thinking sexism privileges women and only harms men. From the repeal of abortion rights in the US to things like honor killings and female general mutilation in the third world to the "daddy stitch" (don't look it up if youre not ready for some horrible information), no, women don't have it great under sexism. I wouldn't argue its all good for men but you are being dishonest if you think sexism is just "women are taken care of and comfy, while men are dead." this is why nothing ever gets done about sexism. Its because third wave feminists and the "manosphere" think this is the Olympics of suffering. Maybe its time we stop fighting over who's had it the worst and start tackling any and all sexism, ajd yes by any and all sexism, it includes men. I'm sure that won't happen though because its just so much easier to complain about how the other gender has everything and one has nothing.

Here in the real world. No one is seriously addressing the fact men and boys are disproportionately targeted for death by “mobs of angry misandrists”, IE, the police.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585 ... by-gender/

Yeah. That’s a thing.

Not to mention men are far more likely to be murdered due to gender outside of the police:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/251 ... nd-gender/

The statistics here are a slam dunk. Your incredulity, far from countering my point, is proving my point.

Notice I said “disproportionately”. Women suffer sexism too, but it’s disproportionately against men. Hence the extremely disproportionate deaths due to gender.


No no, you said boys were being literally killed for their gender. Youve only offered correlation of people being killed and being men, not causation. I want an example of a place where people are being killed for being men as you originally claimed. Also the fact men are the primary victims of homicides does not prove that men are being killed for being men. When you look in our inner cities, most of the drug dealers and gang members are men. Drug dealers and gang members also dont tend to live very long because the occupations are dangerous and illegal ones. So in reality these men were killed for their drugs or the colors they wore, not for being men. While police may have a bias toward men in their encounters, saying the victims of police violence were killed for being men is as simplistic as saying they were killed for being black. Its a case of missing the forest through the trees. The idea that sexism is primarily against men is laughable. No, Gallo, sexism is primarily against anyone who has a sex. Men and women both suffer from it. Men suffer differently but women do not benefit meaningfully from living in a society that treats them like overgrown children or even worse represses them and treats them like cattle. I am thankful to at least not be so misfortunate as to live in a country that treats them as the latter.
Last edited by The V I C on Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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things i like: Britpop, progressivism, women's rights, antiracism, antifascism, climate action, Bernie Sanders, the squad, Gun ownership, John Brown, The lost empire of Rome

Things I don't like: Fascism, racialism, sectarianism, the Israeli government as it currently operates, Jihadism, sexism, homophobia, Islamaphobia, Family Guy, the war on drugs.

Elect no one anywhere at all in 2024.

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:42 am

The V I C wrote:While police may have a bias toward men in their encounters, saying the victims of police violence were killed for being men is as simplistic as saying they were killed for being black.


Yes, if a person would not have been killed for not the fact that they were men or black, it's a case of being killed because they are men or black.

This isn't really hard.

The idea that sexism is primarily against men is laughable. No, Gallo, sexism is primarily against anyone who has a sex. Men and women both suffer from it. Men suffer differently but women do not benefit meaningfully from living in a society that treats them like overgrown children or even worse represses them and treats them like cattle. I am thankful to at least not be so misfortunate as to live in a country that treats them as the latter.

Again, men suffer a disproportionate level of sexism. That doesn't mean women suffer no sexism.

1) Discriminated against at work
2) Discriminated against by the justice system
a) Killed more by police because they are men
b) More likely to be arrested because they are men
c) More likely to be convicted because they are men
d) Serve longer sentences for the same crime because they are men
3) Discriminated against in school
a) Discriminated against in grades with similar performance
b) Discriminated against in disciplinary action
4) Discriminated against by many government support programs, IE, the most recent deal with the SBA emergency relief (which explicitly excluded men by express written policy)
5) Discriminated against in healthcare (women's healthcare is paid more broadly than men's, even for comparable issues, IE, birth control coverage in the affordable care act)
6) Literally drafted and sent to their deaths by their government due to their gender - women are not subject
7) Discriminated against as rape victims - often prosecuted for trying to report being raped
8) Discriminated against as domestic violence victims, often prosecuted for trying to report being victims of violence. Services designed to support victims of domestic violence actually mock them for being victims of domestic violence.
9) Discriminated against by homeless programs, which tend to favor women despite a strong majority of the homeless being men

So, with that backdrop, when you say "some women can't afford tampons", I'm like "ok, that's true, but you're arguing "free sunscreen for white people" to protect from white skin cancer because some white people can't afford sunscreen".

It's really how I see it.
Last edited by Galloism on Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:10 am

The V I C wrote:
No no, you said boys were being literally killed for their gender. Youve only offered correlation of people being killed and being men, not causation. I want an example of a place where people are being killed for being men as you originally claimed.


This is not normally how this kind of analysis is conducted. Usually it is done in the way Gallo is doing it. Only when the victims are men do we suddenly veer off into "It's only racism if the cop shoots someone while shouting openly that it's because they're black, not because they're a suspect".

Also the fact men are the primary victims of homicides does not prove that men are being killed for being men.


Sure it does. Because they're men they're forced into roles where they are more likely to be victims of violence. Moreover, people are more willing to do violence to men regardless of status. This means they're killed in large part for being men.

So in reality these men were killed for their drugs or the colors they wore, not for being men.


"BLM is just making things up. They're killed for being criminals, not black.".

While police may have a bias toward men in their encounters, saying the victims of police violence were killed for being men is as simplistic as saying they were killed for being black.


Oh dear. We're straight up leaning into that then.

Its a case of missing the forest through the trees. The idea that sexism is primarily against men is laughable.


You might find it funny, but that's either because you don't know what you're talking about, or you deny evidence when you see it. Reality has apparently sent you into hysterical laughing fits.

There's a word for people who can't help but uncontrollably laugh at reality, you know.

No, Gallo, sexism is primarily against anyone who has a sex. Men and women both suffer from it.


"Racism is primarily against anyone who has a race".

Men suffer differently but women do not benefit meaningfully from living in a society that treats them like overgrown children or even worse represses them and treats them like cattle.


Yeah but it doesn't do that does it.

I am thankful to at least not be so misfortunate as to live in a country that treats them as the latter.


... Right? So look around you and you might realize, your society is primarily sexist against men.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Fahran
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Posts: 19471
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:47 pm

Saiwania wrote:If they don't endure consequence, they'll never learn anything from such a mistake- such as not to do that again. They'll just take it for granted that they'll be bailed out and be sorely disappointed when this isn't the case for when/if they're on their own after moving out.

We're talking about children as young as twelve and a serious distraction to entire classrooms. This isn't a ridiculous expense and I'm sure boys can find uses for tampons as well.
Last edited by Fahran on Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Then it was as if all the beauty of Ardha, devastating in its color and form and movement, recalled to him, more and more, the First Music, though reflected dimly. Thus Alnair wept bitterly, lamenting the notes which had begun to fade from his memory. He, who had composed the world's first poem upon spying a gazelle and who had played the world's first song upon encountering a dove perched upon a moringa, in beauty, now found only suffering and longing. Such it must be for all among the djinn, souls of flame and ash slowly dwindling to cinders in the elder days of the world."

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Galloism
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Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:03 pm

Fahran wrote:
Saiwania wrote:If they don't endure consequence, they'll never learn anything from such a mistake- such as not to do that again. They'll just take it for granted that they'll be bailed out and be sorely disappointed when this isn't the case for when/if they're on their own after moving out.

We're talking about children as young as twelve and a serious distraction to entire classrooms. This isn't a ridiculous expense and I'm sure boys can find uses for tampons as well.

I'd consent to something relatively small as a token of good faith... like requiring teachers to take serious annual or biannual education on how boys (typically) learn so as to help them stop treating boys as "broken girls" in the classroom, which stunts them for life and is likely one of the major factors leading to the educational attainment gap.
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Fahran
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Posts: 19471
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:09 pm

Galloism wrote:I'd consent to something relatively small as a token of good faith... like requiring teachers to take serious annual or biannual education on how boys (typically) learn so as to help them stop treating boys as "broken girls" in the classroom, which stunts them for life and is likely one of the major factors leading to the educational attainment gap.

Heck, I'd roll all of it into one bill and do a bit more than a small token of good faith.
"Then it was as if all the beauty of Ardha, devastating in its color and form and movement, recalled to him, more and more, the First Music, though reflected dimly. Thus Alnair wept bitterly, lamenting the notes which had begun to fade from his memory. He, who had composed the world's first poem upon spying a gazelle and who had played the world's first song upon encountering a dove perched upon a moringa, in beauty, now found only suffering and longing. Such it must be for all among the djinn, souls of flame and ash slowly dwindling to cinders in the elder days of the world."

- Song of the Fallen Star

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Stellar Colonies
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Founded: Mar 27, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Stellar Colonies » Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:26 pm

While the issues faced by men are being discussed, there's also the foreskin harvesting making them normal and clean :DDD occurring in American hospitals.
Last edited by Stellar Colonies on Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Neutraligon
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Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:44 pm

Galloism wrote:
Fahran wrote:We're talking about children as young as twelve and a serious distraction to entire classrooms. This isn't a ridiculous expense and I'm sure boys can find uses for tampons as well.

I'd consent to something relatively small as a token of good faith... like requiring teachers to take serious annual or biannual education on how boys (typically) learn so as to help them stop treating boys as "broken girls" in the classroom, which stunts them for life and is likely one of the major factors leading to the educational attainment gap.

Sounds good. Personally I support more recess and the like, as well as support fidget stuff available to students who need it.
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Ostroeuropa
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Posts: 57899
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Tue Oct 19, 2021 1:34 am

Neutraligon wrote:
Galloism wrote:I'd consent to something relatively small as a token of good faith... like requiring teachers to take serious annual or biannual education on how boys (typically) learn so as to help them stop treating boys as "broken girls" in the classroom, which stunts them for life and is likely one of the major factors leading to the educational attainment gap.

Sounds good. Personally I support more recess and the like, as well as support fidget stuff available to students who need it.


You don't even need more recess necessarily. Some schools have had good results with taking the lunch hour, reducing it to 30 minutes, and then placing an extra two 15 minute breaks through the day.
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Esalia
Minister
 
Posts: 2171
Founded: Oct 22, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Esalia » Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:15 am

The V I C wrote:
Galloism wrote:Here in the real world. No one is seriously addressing the fact men and boys are disproportionately targeted for death by “mobs of angry misandrists”, IE, the police.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/585 ... by-gender/

Yeah. That’s a thing.

Not to mention men are far more likely to be murdered due to gender outside of the police:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/251 ... nd-gender/

The statistics here are a slam dunk. Your incredulity, far from countering my point, is proving my point.

Notice I said “disproportionately”. Women suffer sexism too, but it’s disproportionately against men. Hence the extremely disproportionate deaths due to gender.


No no, you said boys were being literally killed for their gender. Youve only offered correlation of people being killed and being men, not causation.


Blatant causation would be more obvious, but a) sexism, or really any form of discrimination, isn't always as blatant as people going "yeah I killed him because he's a dude", and b) it still speaks to sexism being present in some form that men die more often than women.

I mean, if men are disproportionately being killed (especially if they still are if you control for other factors), that does speak to some issue disproportionately targeting men and causing them to be more likely to die since, well, they're dying more often. Given that issue effects them because they're men, "men are dying because they're men" is not technically wrong.

Even if controlling for other factors eliminates that disparity, it still means that men are being disproportionately influenced by something that causes their death. Something that is disproportionately influencing them because they're men.

Which is where this falls apart:
I want an example of a place where people are being killed for being men as you originally claimed. Also the fact men are the primary victims of homicides does not prove that men are being killed for being men. When you look in our inner cities, most of the drug dealers and gang members are men. Drug dealers and gang members also dont tend to live very long because the occupations are dangerous and illegal ones. So in reality these men were killed for their drugs or the colors they wore, not for being men. While police may have a bias toward men in their encounters, saying the victims of police violence were killed for being men is as simplistic as saying they were killed for being black. Its a case of missing the forest through the trees.


Because we have to ask ourself why men are most of the drug dealers and gang members. Why men are more likely to be in situations that end with them getting killed.

Because, to me, it very much seems like there's something in society that pushes men onto paths more likely to end with them being killed, which very much sounds like "men are being killed for being men" (if they weren't men, society wouldn't be pushing them down said path and they wouldn't be dying).

The only alternatives I can think of is that this is sheer luck that men just magically go down paths that end in their deaths, which feels like a cop-out.
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Saiwania
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Founded: Jun 30, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Saiwania » Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:26 am

Fahran wrote:We're talking about children as young as twelve and a serious distraction to entire classrooms. This isn't a ridiculous expense and I'm sure boys can find uses for tampons as well.


No they don't and in any case, the girls should be getting tampons from their mother or at home if its not a ridiculous expense.
Last edited by Saiwania on Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Neuer California
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Founded: Oct 15, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Neuer California » Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:28 am

Saiwania wrote:
Fahran wrote:We're talking about children as young as twelve and a serious distraction to entire classrooms. This isn't a ridiculous expense and I'm sure boys can find uses for tampons as well.


No they don't and in any case, the girls should be getting tampons from their mother or at home if its not a ridiculous expense.

And if it is a ridiculous expense, as it would be for a family who has to choose between.eating and tampons because they don't have the money for both?
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Saiwania
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Ex-Nation

Postby Saiwania » Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:36 am

Neuer California wrote:And if it is a ridiculous expense, as it would be for a family who has to choose between.eating and tampons because they don't have the money for both?


It is arguably better from my standpoint that they do without if that has to be the case. Asides from encouraging a budget, It teaches them early on that there is a hierarchy in society and that if you're in the lower status- you don't get access to the nicer things if life until you've made it or got a promotion, such as if you made enough wise decisions or good investments to force your way up an economic/social class.

If you're having a hard time of it, your place is to know your role for the time being. Work/try for the things you want or figure out what to do over the long term. Only you will change your situation over time.
Last edited by Saiwania on Tue Oct 19, 2021 4:43 am, edited 4 times in total.
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